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Envie

[Book Spoilers] Crying Ros Scene

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I accept that they have chosen to portray Littlefinger this way in the show.

I don't accept their completely changing the Littlefinger character and calling the series "Game of Thrones". We were led to believe that we were getting A Song of Ice and Fire transferred from books to TV.

What we are getting instead is a TV drama "inspired by the books of A Song of Ice and Fire", with the producers' own interpretations of the characters and their motives.

Too bad. I don't want some TV producers' "improvements" over GRRM's work. No need to defend the insulting changes they are making.

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cool, but youve gone off the page....... none of you look at , or have thought about condensing 1000 plus pages into circa 2 minutes of screen time to explain the whole lot of abuse and violence there is in the time this great piece of novel is set.

LF, in my way of seeing it, tells the story of Tyrions wife, there is loads of connections to this, both in the books and in series 1 of the tv series. This is connected to the hatred and betrayal/revenge that ultimately makes compelling viewing and makes us discuss these points.

Whilst I agree with your points, I look at this as a forum. comments please

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I don't accept their completely changing the Littlefinger character and calling the series "Game of Thrones". We were led to believe that we were getting A Song of Ice and Fire transferred from books to TV.

What we are getting instead is a TV drama "inspired by the books of A Song of Ice and Fire", with the producers' own interpretations of the characters and their motives.

Too bad. I don't want some TV producers' "improvements" over GRRM's work. No need to defend the insulting changes they are making.

I'm not defending the changes, but plenty of people are and seem to think its fine to take liberties with the characters and to change/add things via a different interpretation. Here's my question: How much say or input does GRRM have on the script and story writing other than the episode he himself is noted to have produced? Does he get to yay or nay things and if so, does that mean he's given the nod of approval for changes to the story? I'm assuming major plot changes (such as the way this episode's cliffhanger ending played) would likely have been run by him to see if they work with future episodes and keep the story generally moving in the right direction.

Does a film adaptation have to follow the books exactly to the letter? No. I don't believe it does and with an epic 5000+ page story like this one, would be impossible anyways.

Do all the characters have to look exactly like their description in the book and act out their parts exactly to the letter as written? No, again, I don't expect exact replication and probably no one is going to be that unreasonable no matter how huge of a book fan they are.

There have been a lot of changes to various characters as well as the plot thus far in the first two seasons and I'm quite sure there will be many more in the seasons to come since HBO has already approved season 3 (yay).

I'm actually ok with Littlefinger's character portrayal for the most part. I think they went a little overboard with the whole 'pimp' thing, especially with the famous scene of Ros and her job interview last season as well as this one with her bawling about the dead baby Barra and Littlefinger turning into evil cartoon overlord whispering in her ear. But mostly I really like the way the actor is portraying him and think its fairly true to his personality overall minus the brothel junk but for many that's just personal preference.

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Cool, :like the way you summarised the whole now filmed everytime we walk out side, every call we make, our IP adresses etc, it happenes in GOT through Varys and his "Little birds" and by LF (Banks) . A great insight..

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The problem with this particular scene is not only the distortion of Littlefinger's character (Why show him at the brothel again and again? What are they intending to do with him when he becomes Lord Protector of the Vale? Give us 'sexposition' scenes with him, Mord, Lysa, Lyn Corbray, and Ros?), it just leads to nowhere. So Ros is said about Barra. I don't care. I don't care at all about Ros as a character. If this was supposed to shed some additional light on Petyr's character it failed spectacularly. We already knew that he is an ass. And he will not use that particular approach to any women he interacts with later on during the series. Not with Catelyn. Not with Lysa. And most certainly not with Sansa!

So what do we know now? Littlefinger can keep his whores in line with scary stories. Great. Did we need to know this? No. Does this surprise us? No. Why not? Because any pimp knows how to keep his whores in line, else he would not be a pimp.

And just for the record: I don't approve of most of the changes they made to the characters. Especially the distorted versions of Catelyn and Cersei. The series is an adaptation not an interpretation. And since GRRM's work consists mostly of greatly written characters, distorting them will always backfire, since it will also distort the motivations of the characters and thus eventually the story that is told.

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And I don't find myself feeling any sympathy toward Ros because she sniffled a bit. How are we to know they were real tears anyway? We've not seen much compassion in her before, so I remain unconvinced/uncaring

That was my first impression of the scene too...it just seemed out of character for her to be crying like that and not to say that whores cant express emotions but to have her do so in front of the boss was stupid IMO. Her character would have more sense than to display any 'weakness' that would jeopardise her new status in the brothel. Apart from the whole scene irritating me, I was put off especially by the crying more so than the veiled threat from LF. And the other cringe worthy moment of course (yuk yuk yuk)

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The problem with this particular scene is not only the distortion of Littlefinger's character (Why show him at the brothel again and again? What are they intending to do with him when he becomes Lord Protector of the Vale? Give us 'sexposition' scenes with him, Mord, Lysa, Lyn Corbray, and Ros?), it just leads to nowhere. So Ros is said about Barra. I don't care. I don't care at all about Ros as a character. If this was supposed to shed some additional light on Petyr's character it failed spectacularly. We already knew that he is an ass. And he will not use that particular approach to any women he interacts with later on during the series. Not with Catelyn. Not with Lysa. And most certainly not with Sansa!

The man's brothels are in KL. They want to reveal a particularly nasty side to his character, so why not have it in this setting? We've seen his "public" court face of playing the game, and now we're seeing his private face. Both faces - Petyr Baelish (court official) and Littlefinger (pimp and sexual predator) are equally vile and untrustworthy. Don't you think that it's fairly realistic that we are shown some aftermath of the terrible killing of the infant in the brothel? Don't you think that it's realistic that LF would want to go check on his establishment after such an incident? Making sure that business was running as usual? This is why we see him peeping through the keyhole, appeasing the disgruntled client and threatening Ros. He's being a smart businessman and making sure that there are no loose ends. I think this is keeping perfectly in line with book LF. And yes, for all we know we might see some brothel scenes in the Vale. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that LF has businesses in Gulltown too.

As for not using the same approach with Cat, Lysa and Sansa, are you being serious? I can't locate my AFFC at the moment, but there's a part in a Sansa chapter there where she notes about the man's two sides, LF and Petyr, and how she doesn't like the former. There's a time when she doesn't kiss him like he wanted - I think she gives him a quick peck on the cheek and he responds with "how dutiful" and later takes the one he wanted. Poor Lysa learnt about his untrustworthiness too late, as it happened when he pushing her through a moon door. Cat still believes he is the nice hometown boy she knew at Riverrun, and takes his word that the dagger belonged to Tyrion.

So what do we know now? Littlefinger can keep his whores in line with scary stories. Great. Did we need to know this? No. Does this surprise us? No. Why not? Because any pimp knows how to keep his whores in line, else he would not be a pimp.

Sigh. It may not be surprising to you, but there are many tv viewers who might have found it enlightening. I've said time and again that it was meant to further establish a point about LF's character. He's a villain, not just at court where you could argue everyone has to play the game; but he doesn't even have any redeeming characteristics when it comes to his personal operations. A baby has been murdered in his brothel, and all he's worried about is whether or not Ros will make him money. That tells me a lot more about LF than the impression of season 1 that he's simply a good game player.

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As for not using the same approach with Cat, Lysa and Sansa, are you being serious? I can't locate my AFFC at the moment, but there's a part in a Sansa chapter there where she notes about the man's two sides, LF and Petyr, and how she doesn't like the former. There's a time when she doesn't kiss him like he wanted - I think she gives him a quick peck on the cheek and he responds with "how dutiful" and later takes the one he wanted. Poor Lysa learnt about his untrustworthiness too late, as it happened when he pushing her through a moon door. Cat still believes he is the nice hometown boy she knew at Riverrun, and takes his word that the dagger belonged to Tyrion.

It does give you a good indication of how he would treat them if he had the power to do it without fear of repurcussion.

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So what do we know now? Littlefinger can keep his whores in line with scary stories. Great. Did we need to know this? No. Does this surprise us? No. Why not? Because any pimp knows how to keep his whores in line, else he would not be a pimp.

Littlefinger is responsible for Jeyne Poole being transformed into Arya. He didn't do this by asking her nicely and saying pretty please and offering her all the lemon cakes she wanted. There is a lot of textual evidence to support that Jeyne Poole becoming fake Arya was not a happy transformation at all. If they use this particular storyline, then yeah, viewers do need to know that he doesn't use his brothels as a place to hide Catelyn or to ruminate aloud with his whores.

It's sort of ironic because I wasn't completely on board with this particular scene when I first saw it but the more I read about the reasons why other people thought it was crap, the more I realize how useful this scene will be for future story lines.

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Here's my question: How much say or input does GRRM have on the script and story writing other than the episode he himself is noted to have produced? Does he get to yay or nay things and if so, does that mean he's given the nod of approval for changes to the story? I'm assuming major plot changes (such as the way this episode's cliffhanger ending played) would likely have been run by him to see if they work with future episodes and keep the story generally moving in the right direction.

Does a film adaptation have to follow the books exactly to the letter? No. I don't believe it does and with an epic 5000+ page story like this one, would be impossible anyways.

Do all the characters have to look exactly like their description in the book and act out their parts exactly to the letter as written? No, again, I don't expect exact replication and probably no one is going to be that unreasonable no matter how huge of a book fan they are.

I think GRRM explains a bit of his role and influence in one of the Comic-Convention. You can google youtube for it. Its the one where he acts as the mediator for the actors of Season 1.

I don't think many readers would get upset over minor changes - but when HBO starts drifting towards major character changes for no apparent gain other than to show some female nudity and sex - then the readers have a good reason to be unhappy. Its like all the brouhaha over the changes in plot in the Star Wars prequels, midi-wtf-chlorians and that infamous re-edited scene where Greedo inexplicably shoots first.

The problem about dumbing down LF is that it makes it a little bit more harder for the audience to realize his sheer genius in scheming and masterminding the entire Lannister vs Stark conflict - in order to position himself from a humble Lord to a major player.

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Littlefinger is responsible for Jeyne Poole being transformed into Arya. He didn't do this by asking her nicely and saying pretty please and offering her all the lemon cakes she wanted. There is a lot of textual evidence to support that Jeyne Poole becoming fake Arya was not a happy transformation at all. If they use this particular storyline, then yeah, viewers do need to know that he doesn't use his brothels as a place to hide Catelyn or to ruminate aloud with his whores.

It's sort of ironic because I wasn't completely on board with this particular scene when I first saw it but the more I read about the reasons why other people thought it was crap, the more I realize how useful this scene will be for future story lines.

OK - but don't you't you think it would be better serve to have the actual Jeyne take the tour of horror with LF rather than more airtime for non-canon character like Ros? At some point they have to introduce Jeyne - why not now?

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Sigh. It may not be surprising to you, but there are many tv viewers who might have found it enlightening. I've said time and again that it was meant to further establish a point about LF's character. He's a villain, not just at court where you could argue everyone has to play the game; but he doesn't even have any redeeming characteristics when it comes to his personal operations. A baby has been murdered in his brothel, and all he's worried about is whether or not Ros will make him money. That tells me a lot more about LF than the impression of season 1 that he's simply a good game player.

Yes, but couldn't it have been done with a canonical character instead like Jeyne? Meanwhile you would assume that the Master of the Coin would have better things to do with his time than micromanaging/ the daily running of his whore house.

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Well I've always agreed with your outlook on it as well. Everyone wants to argue "but a pimp IS a businessman" when I tried to point out that Baelish is an investor, a businessman, not a pimp (at least from the way he was written in the books). He owned ships but wasn't called a "captain" was he? Why is it that he owns brothels but is a "pimp" because HBO decided to make him one?

Well, he would be called a ship magnate then! A pimp is often used as a derogatory term for people who profits directly from the revenue of prostitutes. Of course LF is more than just a pimp - but readers would associate him with a pimp because of his noxious character.

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LF, in my way of seeing it, tells the story of Tyrions wife, there is loads of connections to this, both in the books and in series 1 of the tv series.

Please explain why you think this.

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Yes, but couldn't it have been done with a canonical character instead like Jeyne? Meanwhile you would assume that the Master of the Coin would have better things to do with his time than micromanaging/ the daily running of his whore house.

Yes I agree, but perhaps we're not meant to be shown Jeyne's "training" at all. Maybe it will only be alluded to, with the scene with Ros standing as evidence of what LF is capable of.

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It is clear that the HBO writers will be making significant changes to the story and characters. Is this a problem? Only for those who are deeply invested in the books. I remember the uproar that occurred when Faramir made his appearance in the Two Towers. I hardly recognized him and was pretty upset the changes. But eventually I was able to separate the books from the movies in my mind and begin to appreciate the movies on their own terms. And that is what must happen with all of us.

Martin's books are unadaptable for TV. Period. Here we are complaining about a couple of scenes involving HBO-Littlefinger. But one of the huge problems here is is that the Littlefinger that we know is the one who has been revealed in five books and much of his character development occurs after he has "kidnapped" Sansa. The TV writers, though, do not have the luxury of waiting to develop his character until seasons 3 & 4, and so they have chosen to reveal him through his profession as pimp. Why not? This is his profession. He is the successful proprietor of high class brothels. Though undeveloped in the books, this is a feature of LF's life that is ripe for imaginative reflection and reconstruction. It is not tangential to who he is. He may be more but he is not less than a pimp. Women (and people) are "investments," objects to be used to advance his purposes.

The only way we who love the books will be able to enjoy the HBO show is to let go of our expectations. The HBO writers are using the Martin source material, but they are making changes and will continue to make changes. They need to do so if the show is to flourish. It's a damn good show, folks. Enjoy it on its own terms.

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OK - but don't you't you think it would be better serve to have the actual Jeyne take the tour of horror with LF rather than more airtime for non-canon character like Ros? At some point they have to introduce Jeyne - why not now?

I don't think they are going to use Jeyne Poole even if they use the fake Arya storyline. It isn't a character that has been cast. My guess is that if they use the fake Arya storyline, Ros will be the one who plays a major part in it since she spent so many years in Winterfell.

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It is clear that the HBO writers will be making significant changes to the story and characters. Is this a problem? Only for those who are deeply invested in the books.

I disagree because some of these are relatively drastic changes in character nature. Character nature that is the backbone behind why characters say and do certain things in the future. The concern I have is the ripple effect that many of these alterations will have on the future story lines.

And I'm sick of Ros being the cumbucket, literally and figuratively, for Littlefinger's character.

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I don't think they are going to use Jeyne Poole even if they use the fake Arya storyline. It isn't a character that has been cast. My guess is that if they use the fake Arya storyline, Ros will be the one who plays a major part in it since she spent so many years in Winterfell.

Why do people keep thinking Ros as the 'fake Arya' is an even remotely plausible possibility? It's a horrible idea! There is no way in seven hells they're going to convince an audience (let alone the Boltons) that Ros, a full grown very mature looking voluptuous woman is a 12 year old little girl!! The producers would never try something that ridiculous no matter how many other strange changes they've made.

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Jeyne Pool was in the series, as was her father. And she was even mentioned in episode 4, so I don't see any problem here. If Ros would end up being 'Arya Stark' the whole North would deserve to be flayed alive by Ramsay Bolton for stupidity. Along with the producers of the show who came up with that crappy idea.

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