From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[Queen of Winter]

I was also wondering about how well known the real identity of ser Robert Strong is going to become, because as kin slaying is considered one of the worst crime in the Westerosi culture, I’m not sure if Sandor would be the right person to eliminate his brother.

I could see Jaime killing un-Gregor though, with Sandor’s help of course, but the actual killing would be Jaime’s work, so there would be no kin slaying accusations possible.

You beat me to it, Maroucia! I don't think it's in Sandor's arc to slay his brother.

BUT.......

Crackpot theory coming up! :lol:

In the last thread incarnation I mentioned that Cerberus (the three headed dog) could represent Sandor. Well, Cerberus had a brother, Orthrus who was said to have two heads:

Orthrus was a two-headed dog and a doublet ("brother") of Cerberus....

Now, we know Gregor was killed by the Red Viper, and I believe technically, he died. We all assume that he's been revived by Qyburn, as Robert Strong. It's been speculated that UnGregor has no head (but we don't know that for sure), since Gregor's head was supposedly sent to Dorne, and because Robert never removes his helmet. Sooooo I was thinking Orthrus might parallel Gregor, since he "died" and was "remade" as Robert Strong, I'm counting them as two separate people. :laugh:

It's said that Orthrus is slain by Heracles (who I'm interpreting as Jaime):

Heracles: .... his iconographic attributes are the lion skin and the club.

I'm thinking the lion skin=Lannisters, and maybe the club means his "club hand", the new golden one. Plus it would be totally ironic for Jaime to take out Robert Strong, who is Cersei's champion! :thumbsup:

Edited to add: I totally get what you're saying about Sansa and the Fingers, brash. There are a few ways her story could go, it definitely depends on circumstances. As long as she's happy in the end, that's all I care about.

[Grail King]

I liked the helm too (it's pretty cool, right? :thumbsup: ), but if the Hound part of Sandor is dead, he might need something else to take it's place! ;)

Well, I don't think Sandor will go all pious/religious/devout (never!), but I think the rage in him will be tempered. He'll still be a swordsman and have his rusty chivalry, and Stranger(!) :P

Gendry could make him a Wolf or Falcon helm

[Grail King]

@GK--I can see why you might think it relates to Arya. But I certainly don't think that Sansa will end up with Gendry. She's definitely meant for someone else! ;)

As for Arya,her story arc is totally different. I think that Gendry will be revealed as Robert's son, and that he and Arya will meet again. I'm not sure what kind of relationship they might have though.

And I know this is OT, I couldn't help sneaking it in. I'll remove it if the mods want: Arya reminds me of a mix of Greek myths, one being Nemesis as the spirit of divine retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods). The Greeks personified vengeful fate as a remorseless goddess: the goddess of revenge. The name Nemesis is related to the Greek word meaning "to give what is due" .

Recall how she recites a list of people she wants to kill before going to sleep each night and wanting to avenge her family?

The other is Artemis; Homer refers to her as Artemis Agrotera, Potnia Theron: "Artemis of the wildland, Mistress of Animals". This part I thought interesting:

A poem of Callimachus to the goddess "who amuses herself on mountains with archery" imagines some charming vignettes: according to Callimachus, at three years old, Artemis, while sitting on the knee of her father, Zeus, asked him to grant her six wishes: to remain always a virgin; to have many names to set her apart from her brother Apollo; to be the Phaesporia or Light Bringer; to have a bow and arrow and a knee-length tunic so that she could hunt; ......All of her companions remained virgins, and Artemis closely guarded her own chastity.

Her symbols included the golden bow and arrow, the hunting dog, the stag, and the moon. Callimachus tells^] how Artemis spent her girlhood seeking out the things that she would need to be a huntress...

What is up with that "lightbringer" thing.....Hmmmmm! Arya was a tomboy. And when traveling she dressed as a boy (guarding her chastity.) One of her symbols is the stag....(House Baratheon) hinting a a future relationship with Gendry? Who knows!

Artemis' Roman counterpart is Diana, goddess of the hunt and moon and birthing, being associated with wild animals and woodland, and having the power to talk to and control animals. Think of Arya's connection with Nymeria and her pack....

Edited for spelling mistakes! Eeek!

That's why I said certain things need to fall in place, Sansa I think will either be VQ, or hopefully someone that Eddard would want for her in the end that they both would approve of, just not sure Sandor is the one.

[brashcandy]

Ok, my brain will seriously not communicate with me today :( I'm trying to write this post and failing miserably. So please bear with the timeout for now, and hopefully your regularly scheduled programming will be back soon. Not promising to have this done tonight anymore, but you know I'm good for it. :frown5:

[Maroucia]

Better late then never :), and since we only have one book left, a slower pace will only make our pleasure last longer…

[Elba the Intoner]

You beat me to it, Maroucia! I don't think it's in Sandor's arc to slay his brother.

BUT.......

Crackpot theory coming up! :lol:

In the last thread incarnation I mentioned that Cerberus (the three headed dog) could represent Sandor. Well, Cerberus had a brother, Orthrus who was said to have two heads:

Orthrus was a two-headed dog and a doublet ("brother") of Cerberus....

Now, we know Gregor was killed by the Red Viper, and I believe technically, he died. We all assume that he's been revived by Qyburn, as Robert Strong. It's been speculated that UnGregor has no head (but we don't know that for sure), since Gregor's head was supposedly sent to Dorne, and because Robert never removes his helmet. Sooooo I was thinking Orthrus might parallel Gregor, since he "died" and was "remade" as Robert Strong, I'm counting them as two separate people. :laugh:

It's said that Orthrus is slain by Heracles (who I'm interpreting as Jaime):

Heracles: .... his iconographic attributes are the lion skin and the club.

I'm thinking the lion skin=Lannisters, and maybe the club means his "club hand", the new golden one. Plus it would be totally ironic for Jaime to take out Robert Strong, who is Cersei's champion! :thumbsup:

Edited to add: I totally get what you're saying about Sansa and the Fingers, brash. There are a few ways her story could go, it definitely depends on circumstances. As long as she's happy in the end, that's all I care about.

Plus, that would make Jaime the valonqar!

[Winter's Knight]

You beat me to it, Maroucia! I don't think it's in Sandor's arc to slay his brother.

BUT.......

Crackpot theory coming up! :lol:

In the last thread incarnation I mentioned that Cerberus (the three headed dog) could represent Sandor. Well, Cerberus had a brother, Orthrus who was said to have two heads:

Orthrus was a two-headed dog and a doublet ("brother") of Cerberus....

Now, we know Gregor was killed by the Red Viper, and I believe technically, he died. We all assume that he's been revived by Qyburn, as Robert Strong. It's been speculated that UnGregor has no head (but we don't know that for sure), since Gregor's head was supposedly sent to Dorne, and because Robert never removes his helmet. Sooooo I was thinking Orthrus might parallel Gregor, since he "died" and was "remade" as Robert Strong, I'm counting them as two separate people. :laugh:

It's said that Orthrus is slain by Heracles (who I'm interpreting as Jaime):

Heracles: .... his iconographic attributes are the lion skin and the club.

I'm thinking the lion skin=Lannisters, and maybe the club means his "club hand", the new golden one. Plus it would be totally ironic for Jaime to take out Robert Strong, who is Cersei's champion! :thumbsup:

Edited to add: I totally get what you're saying about Sansa and the Fingers, brash. There are a few ways her story could go, it definitely depends on circumstances. As long as she's happy in the end, that's all I care about.

Dany fits that better-she wears an actual lion skin.

[Megara]

Plus, that would make Jaime the valonqar!

I've always thought that Jaime is the real valonqar :P Tyrion would be just too obvious, and Jaime would be much more significant...

[Elba the Intoner]

Yeah Megara I don't think there is anyone on these boards who thinks Tyrion will be the valonqar, precisely because of the fact that Cersei thinks that is who it will be. Though, knowing the way GRRM works, he would make it Tyrion just because no one thinks it will be him.

Jaime is a much more significant possibility, but actually, there are many possibilities for valonqar. Sandor is a little brother after all. I just posted in another thread on whether Sandor may be the valonqar, about my theory on this and I'll repeat it here since it's come up. I don't think it will be Sandor. I hope he is learning to gentle his rage on the QI just as Sansa has prayed for. Also, if you think about what Maester Aemon said about the Valeryon language when he was talking to Sam about the Prince That Was Promised, Valeryon does not have genders. So, while he had always thought the Prince would be a boy, it could be a girl and he comes to believe it is Dany. This opens up the possibilities that any younger sister or brother could be the valonqar and my personal crackpot is that it will be Arya.

[voodooqueen126]

Well, once Petyr finished using Lysa to further his own game, she was toast. To be honest, I think he was rather disgusted with her (and by her). He obviously found her lacking when he compared her to Catelyn.

Regarding Petyr kissing Sansa, I don't feel it was planned. I think he had one of those "slips" (similar to what Lysa was doing, thinking Sansa was Catelyn). I don't know if it will happen, but I can see later on in the story Petyr going off the deep end, confusing Sansa with Catelyn. Perhaps it won't be exactly how it was with Lysa, but I believe it might happen.

However that kiss might be part of Petyr's undoing, and a mistake on his part. It will be interesting to see if that kiss comes up again later, in some way. You can't tell me that one of the servants didn't see it and set tongues to wagging. It might get them talking, wondering if this Alayne is really LF's daughter.

Yes, I agree! :agree: I think LF's plans were years in the making actually, that one way or another he would take his revenge against the people who denied him the things he most wanted. He definitely had it in for the Stark's and the Tully's from the start, then added Jon Arryn into the mix.

Well, if UnGregor winds up being killed at some point, there are the Clegane lands, and their keep in the Westerlands. Not sure if Sandor will want it, as it probably holds bad memories for him and he hasn't been back there since he left home at 12 y/o. But like you said, he might do something "in battle" that might earn him a reward and "elevate" him to a higher social level. I think some of how Sandor ends up, depends on what happens regarding Rorge and Biter masquerading as him, committing atrocities along the Saltpans, wearing his infamous dog helm. (Side note--Wonder if he'll get the helm back, or decide to melt it down or something and construct a new one, to better match his "new lease on life". ;) ) Is Sandor going to be held responsible for their actions? Who will speak on his behalf, in his defense? The Elder Brother? And Sandor had the gold from the Hand's Tourney , however that was taken from him by Dondarrion. (He was given an IOU for it but gave it to the riverboat captain as payment for crossing the river, saying he'd be back for his "change" later :laugh: ).

Edited to add: You know, I was also thinking that if Robbs Will comes to light, and it's known that Sansa was disinherited, she's may not be "worth" all that much to any of her former suitors who wanted her only for her claim. Other men might desire her because she's pretty, and yes, she comes from a noble family, but that family has been branded traitors, she was accused of regicide, etc.(Though I do expect her to be cleared for that --or I hope!). Yes, I know LF wants her for his twisted plans. :stillsick: But in the end I think the only person she might have real worth to would be Sandor. So, if she essentially has nothing (no lands, etc) at the end, perhaps he might not need to have tons of land or money to be worthy of her. :dunno:

Sansa has certainly been disinherited from Winterfell, and I expect Sansa as a nobly born lady to accept Robb's reasoning behind her disinheritance.

But this does not mean that Sansa should spend the rest of her life hiding in the Fingers (under the control of Harry the Heir) or the Clegane Lands (under the Lannisters :ack:).

If the Starks have any brains then the Boltons are going to be listening to a Northern rendition of the Reynes of Castamere, I would say that Sansa, having been disinherited, would be the most likely choice for new Liege Lady of the Dreadfort, and a sufficiently heroic Sandor would be the most likely liege lord, and Sandor would be a pretty good choice for new Liege Lord, if he proved sufficiently heroic.

I think Sandor and Sansa would enjoy status/power (important in Westeros) property (important before the industrial revolution) but most importantly the love and family relationship with their liege lord (Rickon).

Something that wouldn't be possibly either in the Fingers or Clegane lands.

I personally DO think Sansa should stay Alayne Stone and live on the Fingers or somewhere....maybe with Sandor....

but unlike many views, I don't see this as a permanent course of action for her but rather as a....for the moment...thing.

As in....stay out of sight until the Lannisters get their arses kicked for good, the wars are over and it is "safe" for Sansa ro re-emerge and THEN claim her place in Winterfell.

As of right now, she can't be queen as Bran and Rickon are fully alive and come before her in regards to Winterfell. The whole Robb and Jon thing is still up in the air as well. But it doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

A couple of years though.....could definitely be prudent.

Rickon is the heir (I would say that having read this book , male primogeniture is better than the alternative...) and Bran has certainly disinherited himself by his choice of profession.

I would say that kicking back in the Fingers waiting for the Lannisters to die, then taking power from the rightful heir would probably indicate that Sansa wasn't worthy of being Lady of Winterfell (since she is too cowardly to fight the enemy but is willing to disinherit the rightful heir). Rather Sansa, having completed her education (and staying at the Fingers with Sandor would be a great gender studies practical application major, but this isn't quite necessary to be regent or Lady of Winterfell) and slain the Baelish Monster, should return and help Rickon rebuild Winterfell/The North.

Yeah Megara I don't think there is anyone on these boards who thinks Tyrion will be the valonqar, precisely because of the fact that Cersei thinks that is who it will be. Though, knowing the way GRRM works, he would make it Tyrion just because no one thinks it will be him.

Jaime is a much more significant possibility, but actually, there are many possibilities for valonqar. Sandor is a little brother after all. I just posted in another thread on whether Sandor may be the valonqar, about my theory on this and I'll repeat it here since it's come up. I don't think it will be Sandor. I hope he is learning to gentle his rage on the QI just as Sansa has prayed for. Also, if you think about what Maester Aemon said about the Valeryon language when he was talking to Sam about the Prince That Was Promised, Valeryon does not have genders. So, while he had always thought the Prince would be a boy, it could be a girl and he comes to believe it is Dany. This opens up the possibilities that any younger sister or brother could be the valonqar and my personal crackpot is that it will be Arya.

If GRRM was Nabokov or Tolkein then it would be good if Valonqar turned out to be Arya, since /ar/ is a masculine ending in Cornish, but since Valyrian is a gender neutral language, Cersei, who maybe a native Cornish speaker (Westerland's=West Country)... was merely confused and made a common grammatical mistake that many Westerlands speakers make when they learn Valyrian.

[brashcandy]

I just finished reading the series and am so happy to have found this thread dedicated to my favorite character! I've skimmed a lot of the posts so far.

I agree with a lot of what Lady Kraken said about Little Finger, but I have to admit he really remains a complete mystery to me.

Anyways, there's something I haven't seen stated explicitly yet: In this chapter it is revealed that Lysa *raped* Petyr. I wonder how much of his worldview is influenced by that. I suspect that patriarchal Westerosi generally don't see men as victims of sexual assault by women. It sounds like Lysa's father actually wanted to *punish* LF.

Nothing t oadd for the moment but I jsut wanted to tell that this thread is a fascinating read and great analysis of the character of Sansa in so many aspects. I have to re-read parts of the book to contribute in a style which this thread deserves.

Welcome greensleeves and Lyeder! Hope you stick around and join in the discussion for AFFC :)

@greensleeves - interesting point on LF and Lysa. It seems like LF has managed to convince himself that it was Cat whose virginity he took that night, but I do agree that it fits into the narrative of his powerlessness during this period. His entire lust for power and constant game playing arguably stems from this early emasculation of not being seen as good enough for the Tully daughters.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ugghhh you guys, so many long posts, so much interesting reading :) My write up is a bit late, sorry. It will be posted shortly.

And I thought this necessary to clarify: when I consider the possibility that Sansa may end up on the Fingers it's not because I'm imagining it as some idyllic love nest she can share with Sandor. Well, yes, it may be that too :) but seriously, I think there is genuine foreshadowing that this could be where she comes to live. In my heart I would love Sansa to be a Queen, not because it's suitable to her "status" or the kind of lifestyle she's been accustomed to as a daughter of Winterfell, but because she'd be a damned good one. And there's plenty foreshadowing for that too. I just wanted to speak to this, because I feel like there's been a misunderstanding where some believe that the Fingers theory is being proposed as a way to get Sansa and Sandor together at all costs, and that it's "bringing down" Sansa and ignoring her potential. Not at all. I think Sansa could be equally happy and fulfilled as a Queen or as a lowly heiress of the Fingers. It all depends on whether she has the power to choose what she wants, and whether or not she's able to establish her own values and principles in whichever setting and role she chooses.

I'm not yet convinced Sansa will stay at the Fingers for any longer period of time. It seems pretty well established from the people Sansa has interacted with so far: Cersei, Tyrion, Sandor, Littlefinger; that she's meant for courtly intrigue or at least serious politics. I wonder if she is learning to be a Master of Coin as well, or if Littlefinger keeps that bit away from her. Arya mentions in AGOT how Sansa is bad at Maths, but good at everything else, but perhaps she just didn't see it as "ladylike"? Now when Sansa has proper motivation, she seems to be able to pick up a lot of things AGOT Sansa would not have been too keen on.

One thing I think Sansa will not be happy with at the Fingers is the lack of comforts and nice clothes. She's disappointed when she has to leave Lysa's pretty dresses and jewellry behind at the Eyrie. Now Sansa has changed in that she's eprfectly fine with wearing simple garb, she just prefers something nicer if she got to choose. So I think if Sansa got to choose herself, being a noble lady would come before being an upjumped sellsword's wife at the Fingers.

I'm also not sure that whichever suitor Sansa eventually chooses will have to "distinguish" himself as such and get lands or a lordship. I was actually thinking of Gemma Lannister here, who is known for completely dominating her husband. Her Frey husband is a bit stupid, but he's also far more lowborn than she is and it makes it seem more ok in people's eyes that she is the power in the marriage. If Sansa marries someone who is far more lowborn than she is, it would probably be easier for her to continue as the political power in that marriage, since she would have the connections, the family name etc. It would not necessarily be a bad thing, depending on what she's after. Since Sansa doesn't look to be inheriting Winterfell either, it may even be to her advantage to marry a man who does not have his own lands, since then she could use her politicial clout to try and get some suitable ones. The most promising being the Dreadfort, I think, if someone decides to do a Rain of Castamere on the Boltons (whoever suggested that upthreads, brilliant! :lol:). They'd had to rename it tho. Seriously, the DREADfort? Make it the Wolffort or just anything. It sounds like a dank dungeon the whole thing.

As one of the few remaining Starks and if she and/or Arya end up as Rickon's regent while he comes of age, it only makes sense she should get some just rewards once everything is said and done.

Re:Valonquar, I think it's more likely to be Jaime, Sansa, Arya or Dany than Tyrion. They're all younger siblings and it seems like Tyrion is on a journey to make him (slightly) less murderous, while the others are on journeys that will make them more murderous, and in the case of Jaime, just murderous towards Cersei.

[Queen of Winter]

Sansa has certainly been disinherited from Winterfell, and I expect Sansa as a nobly born lady to accept Robb's reasoning behind her disinheritance.

But this does not mean that Sansa should spend the rest of her life hiding in the Fingers (under the control of Harry the Heir) or the Clegane Lands (under the Lannisters :ack:).

If the Starks have any brains then the Boltons are going to be listening to a Northern rendition of the Reynes of Castamere, I would say that Sansa, having been disinherited, would be the most likely choice for new Liege Lady of the Dreadfort, and a sufficiently heroic Sandor would be the most likely liege lord, and Sandor would be a pretty good choice for new Liege Lord, if he proved sufficiently heroic.

I think Sandor and Sansa would enjoy status/power (important in Westeros) property (important before the industrial revolution) but most importantly the love and family relationship with their liege lord (Rickon). Something that wouldn't be possibly either in the Fingers or Clegane lands.

Yeah, you have a point with the Clegane lands residing under the Lannisters and Casterly Rock, and I guess Sandor did say he was done with lions.

It's funny what you mentioned about the Sansa and Dreadfort, because this is a thought that's crossed my mind a few times. I could see where something like that might happen. But Lyanna is right, when she metioned they would need to rename it something new! Not to mention... errr....spruce it up! :rolleyes: (But you know, some part of me thinks Sandor would be amused at him being given/ruling a place called "The Dreadfort"). ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

Isn't the Reyne castle at Castamere a ruin now? If they really go all Lord Tywin on the Boltons, I guess they can always rebuild the fortress and make it nicer...complete with a new name. :lol:

[Queen of Winter]

@ Lyanna- Not sure about the castle, but Rolph Spicer holds Castamere, which he was given for his role in the Red Wedding.

[Megara]

Just wondering, isn't Margaery Tyrell the youngest child as well? That could make her a valonqar candidate, I think xD

I was also thinking about Sansa becoming the lady of the Dreadfort (with a different name and whole new look, of course), since I really think the Boltons will be destroyed very soon. It's an awfull place, though, so I don't know if Sansa will be too happy being the lady of a castle with a history of torture and murder =7

EDIT: I don't know if we're allowed to talk about this here, but

While watching episode 3 of the second season, I realized Cersei calls Sansa "little dove"... this is the second time she calls her this way, the first one in the first episode of season 1... perhaps they will use this nickname to introduce Sandor's "little bird"?

[Grail King]

Sansa can rename the dreadfort to anything she wants, but I still think she is ranking higher then a lady unless LF is successful in totally manipulating her.

[Maroucia]

Yeah, you have a point with the Clegane lands residing under the Lannisters and Casterly Rock, and I guess Sandor did say he was done with lions.

It's funny what you mentioned about the Sansa and Dreadfort, because this is a thought that's crossed my mind a few times. I could see where something like that might happen. But Lyanna is right, when she metioned they would need to rename it something new! Not to mention... errr....spruce it up! :rolleyes: (But you know, some part of me thinks Sandor would be amused at him being given/ruling a place called "The Dreadfort"). ;)

It could be really funny if Sansa and Sandor would get the Dreadfort, and of course, Sansa would want to clean the whole place and redo the interior decoration… They would take down all the human skin tapestries and the skull lamps from the walls…

And then it would become this really cute and girly place, with flowers and nice colors everywhere…but they would keep the same name: the Dreadfort! :lol:

[Elba the Intoner]

New decor would def be in order for the Dreadfort and in addition to changing the name or not, I hope they also get a new sigil. I mean, a flayed man?! Ew!!

I meant to comment on the fact that in the show Cersei calls Sansa "little dove" too. I really picked up on it last night though she did use it last season too. I know the show and the book are not necessarily the same, but I have to wonder why the show writers would choose that nickname for her. It is another bird reference for Sansa, and a dove is white and symbolizes peace. I wonder what they are trying to tell us.

[Grail King]

http://www.symbolic-...aning-of-doves/

Just one of many.

ETA : I did learn something though- they produce milk for their young.