From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[1234567]

@ Maroucia

Ditto!!

Next chapter and analysis should be up on Monday....

[Raksha the Demon]

Great recap and analysis!

This chapter was an important transitional period in Sansa's young life; she has left her childhood innocence behind and is moving into a troubled adolescence, coping with extreme changes in her identity and the adult issues of truth and lies and guilt.

Most 13-year-olds have to sort out these issues; but few of them are in Sansa's situation; forced by circumstance to take refuge with a man who is trying to exploit and seduce them and has also been, in large part, the architect of the dangers that forced her to need refuge in the first place. Littlefinger helped start the Lannister/Stark wars and resulting conflagration and was also directly responsible for Sansa's unwittingly bringing a murder weapon to a wedding feast - resulting in the dead king's vengeful mother accusing Sansa of regicide. Sansa is trapped once more, a bird in a gilded and increasingly sinister cage. She isn't being beaten any more; but she has to lie to survive; and there are moral and physical costs to her lies.

Sansa can't run away; she has no allies at the Eyrie other than her seductive 'Father' - another jailor but in a more kindly guise. If she managed to descend the Eyrie and strike out on her own, the hill-tribes would probably carry her off, possibly forever, to a miserable life of squalid rape and servitude, if a ransom wasn't paid or asked. Or she would be found by Cersei's agents. And Sansa has nowhere to go; her parents' allies are either dead, imprisoned or have joined the Lannisters. Alys Karstark, who faced an unwanted marriage in ADWD and who did strike out on her own, had a definite destination in mind (the Wall, and Jon Snow) and less far to travel than Sansa would have if she had tried to get to Jon.

And she's been made the accomplice to the torture and likely death of a man she knows is innocent of the crime to which she has borne false witness. To be honest, I probably would have done the same thing as Sansa; she was in a miserable situation. If Sansa told the truth and was believed, with Littlefinger promptly shoved out the Moon Door to follow Lysa; then the angry lords could well have chucked Sansa out too. Or she would have at least lost the only protector she had. There was absolutely no guarantee that they would have believed a self-confessed liar if she suddenly claimed to be Sansa Stark, either - would you wager your life on it? And if Sansa told the truth and Littlefinger countered with a sorrowful father-routine about his wayward daughter conspiring with the minstrel to kill his beloved wife? Littlefinger would have treated her with the same ruthlessness that he showed to Lysa.

Sansa had a terrifying situation behind her, complete with a demonstration of how ruthless and clever Littlefinger could be (in murdering Lysa and quickly pinning the blame on Marillion) and a frightening situation in front of her, dilemmas that could puzzle people twice her age. I can't say that I blame her for trying to preserve the precarious safety she had, instead of almost certainly endangering herself, especially since Marillion was an accomplice to Lysa's attempt to murder Sansa, and, before that, had tried his best to rape Sansa.

Sansa's father was placed in a similar situation, being urged by Littlefinger to lie and proclaim Joffrey as Robert's Heir, consolidate his power and rule as Hand. Ned chose to tell the truth. I love Ned for his honesty; but I think Westeros would have been better off if Ned had lied (not to mention Ned and the rest of his family).

Lying is often immoral. I'd make an exception for 'white lies', but it is an almost universal rule in many religions and cultures that lying is wrong. Yet people often lie.

Sansa is learning the hard way, from an immoral opportunist who wants to seduce her, that lies are sometimes necessary. Unfortunately, Sansa has no one to give her a common-sense perspective. Right now, Sansa's very identity, at least the identity she is using, is a lie. No wonder she is puzzled and confused and feels guilty!

It doesn't help that Littlefinger, who has put Sansa in this trap, twists her chains when she tries to deny being his daughter and cling to some shred of honesty:

------

(Italics and comments inside [ ] and bold are mine.)

"It was clever of you to see it. [Sansa noticing that Petyr signed the order for Lord Nestor to hold the Gates as Lord Protector rather than have Robert sign it] Though no more than I'd expect of mine own daughter." [He's such a proud father! :ack: ]

"Thank you. She felt absurdly proud for puzzling it out, but confused [i'll bet!] as well. "I'm not, though. Your daughter. Not truly. I mean, I pretend to be Alayne, but you know..." [she's a Stark, she's Ned Stark's daughter! :crying:]

Littlefinger put a finger to her lips. "I know what I know, and so do you. Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling."

"Even when we are alone?"

"Especially when we are alone. [shoulda thought of that before kissing her in plain sight by the snow castle, Petyr!] Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No," Sansa said. "Please."

------

Littlefinger is manipulating Sansa, transferring the consequences of his misdeeds to Sansa, as in look what you made me do, it will be your fault if you don't do what I want, say what I want you to say, be who I need you to be. Classic abuser! Sansa was not thinking of the danger to herself, just the sorrow she felt over Marillion having been tortured and Ser Dontos murdered.

I don't blame Sansa for lying to little Robert about being his mother. The child's question was one I would find hard to answer, and I'm old enough to be Sansa's grandmother (in Westeros, at least!). He's an eight-year-old boy with extremely bad health, who lost a father and now his mother, and his guardian is an emotionally distant man who he probably doesn't know too well; a child who had an unusually close relationship to his over-protective mother. The kid is prone to having dangerous fits when he is stressed. Should Sansa have told him that she's not his mother, or let him feel comforted by having her be his foster-mother, hoping he will gain strength later and she can distance herself from him when he's older? I suppose Sansa could have told SweetRobin that she was not his mother, no one could replace his mother, but that she would try to look after him and love him like his mother did - but it's still a very delicate situation. The kid was awfully needy, messy, bed-wetting brat that he is. I think that Sansa blames herself somewhat for Lysa's death - thanks to Littlefinger - and that was one reason she said she would be his mother.

Lies that are kindly meant can indeed be a slippery slope, as brashcandy noted. I wonder if the young Littlefinger, beginning his career as a financier, once thought that kindly meant lies did no real harm?

[brashcandy]

Good catch Maroucia.

Yes, I think her leaving him out has to do with that, and something else, which I am not going to bring up yet as it has to do with later Sansa chapters. :)

Lyanna, you're a cruel tease :)

[brashcandy]

Great post, Raksha. And look at how easy LF is able to manipulate grown men like Nestor Royce and the other lords. Had Sansa even believed that she could confess the truth to Royce she would have been in for an awful disappointment.

[bgona]

Maroucia I call that the hidden paths!

And you have forget Rickon lost or hidden, Bran also lost in the North where nobody knows that he is, Jeyne being Arya.

[Maroucia]

Maroucia I call that the hidden paths!

And you have forget Rickon lost or hidden, Bran also lost in the North where nobody knows that he is, Jeyne being Arya.

Yeah! How could I forget those ones?!!

[Raksha the Demon]

Hello all -- I completed a Sansa reread recently and have been watching this thread develop, hoping to jump in at AFFC. This first Sansa AFFC chapter is one of my favorite chapters in the entire series -- it's incredibly rich, complex, and subtle.

The most important development of the chapter is that Sansa rationalizes telling a lie that will result in a man's death, for her own self-preservation. The chapter opens with Sansa hearing Marillion's songs and trying to shut them out. A few pages in, she hears the songs again and thinks, "I must not pity him… He was vain and cruel, and soon he will be dead… Some lies you have to tell." She keeps thinking about what truly happened and then putting it out of her mind. The chapter closes with Sansa going to bed after telling her lies to Nestor and co., thinking Marillion "will not sing tonight… He would not dare.. She closed her eyes." Martin then cuts to Sweetrobin waking her up and ends the chapter without clarifying whether Marillion was truly silent that night, or whether Sansa has managed to successfully block out his sounds and her own guilt at condemning a man for a crime he did not commit. (Marillion is a horrible person and sexually assaulted her -- but he didn't kill Lysa.)

Then of course there is the lie of her own identity. LF tells her that she must be Alayne "all the time," even in her heart. Sansa is unsure whether she can, but decides to lie to LF to tell him "what he wanted to hear" and says "I am Alayne, Father. Who else would I be?"

Another set of lies Sansa rationalizes is aimed at Robert, and she tells herself she's lying to him out of kindness. "Robert was not strong and had to be protected, even from the truth," she thinks in the beginning, recalling how LF told her "Some lies are love." Midway through the chapter, Sansa tells Robert that LF loved Lysa, and thinks "That was a lie, though kindly meant." In the final scene of the chapter, she tells Sweetrobin she's his mother now and thinks (in the final sentence of the chapter) "If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it."

I would push back on her justification here. Sansa is not lying to Robert because she "loves" him, it's in fact purely because of her self-interest. It is not "kind" to ensure that Robert remains in the clutches of his mother's killer, and to lie to him about the manner of Lysa's death. It is what's best for Sansa and what's necessary for her self-preservation (so she thinks). But she deludes herself into thinking her lies to Robert are out of "love" or for his own good, apparently she feels less guilty if she tells herself this.

Let's track the history of Sansa's ability to lie. This was present in AGOT with the Nymeria incident -- Sansa desperately wanted her storybook life as a queen with her beloved Joffrey, she told a lie in hopes of preserving that fantasy, and she ended up paying a big price for it with the execution of her wolf. Then we have all of her lies to the Lannisters throughout ACOK and ASOS -- 100% morally justifiable lies that don't hurt anybody and were necessary for her own survival in an environment of immediate danger. Her flat-out lies there were not always that convincing to those who hear them, but she did develop a skill at concealment that was effective in hiding her visits to the godswood and facilitating her escape.

But now she's in a different environment, where there's not an axe hanging over her head every moment. And now her lies have the power to hurt people (Marillion, Robert), which is very different from the situation in ACOK/ASOS. Sansa is not a cruel person and she has malice toward nobody -- instinctively, she feels guilt and sympathy when Marillion is locked up for the murder he didn't commit, even though he sexually assaulted her. But this whole chapter is about Sansa becoming able to convincingly lie for her own benefit / self-preservation, and eventually managing to rationalize those lies and avoid feeling guilty about it. All this potentially sets the stage for her to rationalize bigger, even more consequential lies later on.

Interesting post, Lost Lord.

While I'll agree that Sansa has a capacity for self-delusion, I don't agree that her lies to SweetRobin are totally self-serving. It would have been a long shot convincing the lords of the vale that LF killed Lysa; LF is very convincing, and Sansa had very good reason to know how ruthless he would be if she failed - was she obligated to risk her life to try to remove her cousin from LF's custody? The other time that Sansa told the truth about an abusive person in control of her - Joffrey - to the Tyrell women, they became fair-weather friends who dumped her unceremoniously when she could no longer be useful to their family.

I definitely don't think that Sansa agreed to be little Robert's mother for selfish reasons. There's no benefit to her; it only increases the reliance of this very needy, bratty, difficult child on her, already something Sansa has been shown as trying to lessen, at least in terms of limiting his time in her bed at night. There's absolutely no reason not to tell the kid a white lie that Littlefinger loved his mother; what good would it do to imply that Littlefinger didn't love Lysa, or doesn't have Robert's best interests at heart - while the latter is true, if Robert knew it, he would be more stressed, have more and perhaps worse seizures, and die sooner, not to mention suffer more. I think Sansa was definitely trying to be kind when she agreed to be Robert's 'mother'. She can understand what it is to miss one's dead mother, to be and feel alone.

I would also disagree that there is no axe hanging over Sansa's head now as there was in King's Landing. The axe is still there, it's just higher above her head. If she crosses Littlefinger, if she becomes useless to him, if she runs from his protection or he is cast down and no one steps up to shield her from Cersei's wrath, then the axe will almost certainly descend on Sansa.

Sansa is in a terribly difficult situation. While she is safe from daily beatings or worse (especially since Lysa is dead and Marillion soon will be), she is in the care of a man who is corrupting her on multiple levels. Her strengths will be tested, her weaknesses - which include her capacity for self-delusion - exploited. I think most 13-year-olds in her place would be confused as to who to trust, and how far to go to protect themselves. Thirteen-year-olds need moral guidance, and the only guidance that even came close to it within the past year and more has come from Sandor, which is almost laughable, considering he also held a knife to her throat. The guidance that Sansa's new 'Daddy' is giving her is politically expedient, but certainly not moral.

Both Sansa and Arya have taken very perilous paths. They have suffered fear and personal danger, and are now in the hands of immoral guardians who are bent on destroying their identities and remaking them in very different guises. I think that the Stark girls have actually had it worse than their brothers (well, apart from Robb being murdered and Bran being crippled) - Robb had the companionship and support of his mother and bannermen; Bran had Maester Luwin and the other Stark retainers at Winterfell and the Reeds and Summer; Rickon had Shaggydog and Osha and (for awhile) Bran and Maester Luwin; the boys mostly had people who would die for them surrounding and supporting them. Sansa and Arya have had people who would abuse, hurt and exploit them; and have had to navigate physically and morally very dangerous, murky waters.

Sansa is sliding deeper into those morally murky waters with this chapter; it's a shame, but I can understand why, and I still don't blame her; since I might have said the same things in her place, I truly believe that she thinks she has little choice if she wants to survive (and she's probably right).

If Sansa grows up into a female Littlefinger, a lying, treacherous person who always does what is politically expedient without compunction or compunction, then I will mourn the woman she could have and should have been. But she's not there yet; I think her inner wolf, Ned Stark's daughter, is still there, and could still triumph.

[Caro99]

*ASOS foreshadowing & summary:

Brilliant work, Raspie and Brash!

I really liked the foreshadowing of Sansa having a child out of wedlock (Sandor’s?) and maybe that would be the kid she would love best. Cat loved all her children, but she said I think Bran was her special boy, so maybe Sansa’s special child could be a bastard- ironic since she once thought of them with disdain. But if she can marry Sandor, then that’s even better ;)

There was some talk about Willas and Sansa. I’m sure he and Tyrion are way better candidates for Sansa than Joff or Robert Arryn, and someone wanted to have a POV character where Willas was finally introduced to us. Well, not sure if it’s true, but I read long ago that Highgarden and Casterley Rock are going to appear on TWOW, so I’m sure we’ll meet Willas then. Not physically, but I imagine him in character as Asha’s uncle, the Reader, kind and very smart and well-read. Among the hundred endings for Sansa I think being the Lady of Highgarden wouldn’t be bad at all… :dunno:

And I liked LF’s reference to Pan and the goddess Selene. Specially this: He accomplished this by wrapping himself in a sheepskin to hide his hairy black goat form, and drew her down from the sky into the forest where he seduced her.

To me it sounds like LF hiding his true self from Sansa to hide his black heart and gain her trust. & since one of them have to at least leave the Vale eventually, if they do it together I thought it could be because they’re on the run and LF finally snaps and tries to seduce Sansa all the way. :wacko: I shudder at the thought, so I came up with Sandor being the one who draws her down from the sky into the forest, and now that they’re finally mature enough to be in a relationship, they can declare their feelings to each other. :)

The only thing I still dread and can’t manage to figure out what will come out of it (whether it be good or bad) is Sansa’s fear of Ser Illyn…

*AFFC’s 1^st chapter:

I like how George began this chapter with a memory of Sansa’s childhood. Not only to contrast the change the girl has been though since that far away day when the singer left Winterfell, but to show us that Sansa is still remembering who her real father was- not the man she has to stand all day long. & while I don’t like Sansa having to trust LF to a degree, I like how she is portrayed here: as a student learning the craft of lies and intrigues from one of the best teachers of this in Westeros (assuming her future will deal with this, since she could become the next Varys?). At least I find it more believable and entertaining than Arya’s lessons from the kindly man. I’m sure she would’ve tried to run away from LF’s clutches if she could, but as she says hereself, she has no one else to turn to. So I wonder what she’ll do when she hears that “Arya Stark” has been married to Ramsay Bolton/Snow. And when she hears that the Hound is now called the Butcher of Saltpans. I don’t think she’ll believe Sandor did the killings, but Saltpans is close to the Vale… I also like how LF notices Sansa has honest eyes. She will probably learn how to conceal that honesty, but what will happen when the man who told her that everyone lied better than her comes along? Will she be able to hide her feelings from the Hound then, or will he still read her like a book..? :love: Anyways, the Eyrie at present is a very bleak place to live in I think. & the songs haunting her at all times; Sweetrobin interrupting her sleep; taking care to always remember she must now be Alayne, even if in her heart she can’t let go of her Stark roots… She managed to trick Lord Nestor, and she’ll continue to trick others, but I feel LF knows deep down that Sansa doesn’t still believe this for herself. & I think it was all right that she didn’t tell Robert about how his mother died. She can’t appear to be betraying her “father”, and as Raksha posted above, the poor boy would probably die of the shaking fit the truth would bring along. And even though she has to start lying to save her skin at the cost of others, since she now is playing the game moves like this have to be expected if she wants to survive. & I also agree with Raksha that she would’ve done the same thing as Sansa in the miserable situation she is in at present. The bad thing is LF knows this, so no fear his “daughter” will try to escape his clutches any time soon. When she does manage to escape him, Sandor might be the one to help her. But if Jaime & Brienne help him, I wouldn’t mind it at all. The only thing I don’t want Sansa to see is her mother. She has already seen her father being beheaded, so no need for her to see UnCat. So if Brienne & Jaime are meant to rescue her, they better think of another place to take her that’s not with the Brave Companions.

[brashcandy]

Is no one up for Marillion crackpotting? :) I mean it's certainly possible that LF has frightened him into complying with the lie, but it would just be like LF to keep Marillion around for some nefarious purposes... Also, did anyone get the feeling that LF was quite happy not to make Marillion stop singing? I feel like he wanted Sansa to be completely stressed out during this time.

[Lady Kraken]

I love reading your posts! I just wanted to add a few things to the discussion that I noticed about this chapter, some of which go along with what's already been said.

First, as others have said, I feel like we watch Sansa grow much bolder over the course of this chapter alone. Already I think we can see she’s becoming more confident with lying and hiding her true feelings. To illustrate this, at the beginning of the chapter she thinks while talking to Petyr: “He is so bold. Sansa wished she had his courage.” Here, she's jealous of Littlefinger because he's confident while she's a wreck about what they have to do. Then when Royce and the other arrives, after she greets them she thinks, “A liar’s voice…a guilty voice.” Here, she’s still very insecure about the performance she has to put on and if she’ll be believable.

But then we see her growing a little more confident while telling her story when she thinks: “That’s good, a tear is good.” And then later we see her repeating Petyr’s line in her head when she lies to him: “Lies and arbor gold.” I think the fact that she repeats this line shows that she’s already learning from him and even developing a little more of the boldness she envies in him, especially when she then replies, "I am Alayne, father. Who else would I be?" knowing that she doesn't mean it.

And it’s interesting that her last lie in the chapter, that she's Robert's mother now, actually comes without thinking but almost automatically. Here, we’re seeing Sansa already growing more confident with this skill of sorts that she learned in King’s Landing. Lying has kept her alive so far, but will she be pushed into telling a lie with more dire consequences in the future? I think Martin might be partially setting up that future dilemma with this chapter.

Sansa's compassion is still very clear in this chapter though--she feels guilty about Marillion even though he would have hurt her and let Lysa kill her. She also cares for the sickly Robert. And she still has to justify her lies as kindly meant. It actually reminds me a bit of Arya trying to justify her first hired kill. Like the Kindly Man is pushing Arya into morally dangerous territory, Littlefinger begins to do the same with Sansa here. It will be interesting to see how the girls handle this in the future.

Additionally, I think her observations on Littlefinger are really interesting. She learned in King’s Landing that people are not always what they appear to be—her courteous, handsome prince a monster, the beautiful queen cruel, the ugly, harsh Hound someone who protected her, and so on… That’s why I particularly like this line:

“Sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle… but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she’d known at King’s Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei’s ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers.”

It’s important that she realizes Petyr is more than what he seems. Right now, she appears to think that the sly ‘Littlefinger’ is the mask and Petyr is the real man, but is that really the case? Naturally, she wants to see him as her gentle protector who sometimes wears a cruel mask because she believes he’s her one friend, but she has difficulty telling where the man ends and the mask begins. Though it’s clear she doesn’t yet trust him when she thinks that she’d probably flee Littlefinger and Petyr if she had a choice. It's good to see her observing people more closely now and questioning if they actually are the way that they present themselves.

It’s also very interesting to note that Baelish is almost referred to exclusively as “Petyr” in this chapter until the end. After she lies and tells him that she is Alayne, Martin writes:

“Lord Littlefinger kissed her cheek.”

I thought that it was worth noting that Martin decided to diverge from calling him Petyr, as he does in the rest of the chapter, in this one line. Any thoughts on this?

[brashcandy]

Very interesting post Lady Kraken. I didn't even notice that final point you made but I think it's really significant. It could be that Martin wants to highlight the danger that "Littlefinger" represents, in that at this moment, he's asking Sansa to commit herself to being Alayne, but as she noted earlier, "Littlefinger was no friend of hers." Also, related to this, he could be stressing how both of them have resumed their masks and are playing a game. Sansa is lying about being Alayne all the time, and Petyr is certainly not the altruistic, kindhearted daddy he's pretending to be here. He has his own deeper and darker reasons for wanting her to trust him wholeheartedly which are perfectly aligned with his Littlefinger persona.

[brashcandy]

Here's some useful info from Arya I of AFFC that might be relevant for our analysis of Sansa's arc:

The Titan of Braavos. Old Nan had told them stories of the Titan back in Winterfell. He was a giant as tall as a mountain, and whenever Braavos stood in danger he would wake with fire in his eyes, his rocky limbs grinding and groaning as he waded out into the sea to smash the enemies. "The Braavosi feed him on the on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls," Nan would end, and Sansa would give a stupid squeak. But Maester Luwin said the Titan was only a statue, and Old Nan's stories were only stories.

Winterfell is burned and fallen. Arya reminded herself. Old Nan and Maester Luwin were both dead most like, and Sansa too. It did no good to speak of them. All men must die...

Even if the giant did eat juicy pink girl flesh, Arya would not fear him. She was a scrawning thing, no proper meal for a giant, and almost eleven, practically a woman grown...

We are going to row beneath the Titan's legs. Arya could see the arrow splits in the great bronze breastplate, and stains and speckles on the Titan's arms and shoulders where the seabirds nested. Her neck craned upward. Baelor the Blessed would not reach his knee. He could step right over the walls of Winterfell...

Arya could taste salt where the spray had touched her face. She had to look straight up to see the Titan's head. "The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls," she heard Old Nan say again, but she was not a little girl, and she would not be frightened of some stupid statue.

Even so, she kept one hand on Needle as they slipped between his legs.

Intriguing possibilities for the giant prophecy to do with Sansa, as well as the similarity in how both of the girls think of themselves now, and their family. (FWIW, the boat that brings Arya to Braavos is called the Titan's Daughter.)

[Lyanna Stark]

Good grief, I hope people aren't waiting with bated breath for a huge reveal now. :lol: *feels the pressure*

Very interesting post Lady Kraken. I didn't even notice that final point you made but I think it's really significant. It could be that Martin wants to highlight the danger that "Littlefinger" represents, in that at this moment, he's asking Sansa to commit herself to being Alayne, but as she noted earlier, "Littlefinger was no friend of hers." Also, related to this, he could be stressing how both of them have resumed their masks and are playing a game. Sansa is lying about being Alayne all the time, and Petyr is certainly not the altruistic, kindhearted daddy he's pretending to be here. He has his own deeper and darker reasons for wanting her to trust him wholeheartedly which are perfectly aligned with his Littlefinger persona.

The Lord Littlefinger reference also seems to turn up when Sansa takes a leaf out of his book and smoothly lies to him about who she is. There seems to be a difference in how Sansa acts and speaks in AFFC after becoming Alayne. Alayne is smoother, bolder, more like Littlefinger himself.

“Can you do that? Can you be my daughter in your heart?”

“I …” I do not know, my lord, she almost said, but that was not what he wanted to hear. Lies and arbor gold, she thought. “I am Alayne, Father. Who else would I be?”

This line works as if Sansa really is Alayne just like Petyr is Littlefinger. I think it ties into with how she at the beginning of the chapter was worried, thinking Petyr so very brave, but at the end of the chapter she has managed to figure out what he did with Nestor, some part of her is very proud about that, and she then steps into the corresponding role of Alayne to Petyr's Littlefinger.

Further, I always read the last bit as a bit...breathless? Almost as a seductive "yes my heart is yours" lie. It's Sansa telling him the lie he wants to hear, just as he himself has done to Nestor minutes before. Littlefinger lied and seduced Lord Nestor, and Alayne lies and seduces Lord Littlefinger.

In many ways I think Littlefinger is very right when he recognises Sansa's potential before almost anyone else. He does say "with my brains and your beauty" but he also seems to see that Sansa is not just "beauty", but that he can also bestow some of his "brains" on her, like an accomplice or a star pupil.

[childofsummer]

Is a lie immoral when it is forced? If it is issued purely as a means of self defense? These situations are different from white lies, because a white lie is an untruth, but a harmless one meant to spare someone else's feelings. In contrast, a forced or defensive lie is an untruth that may be harmful but that is told to preserve thw liar's life or health.

I think Sansa has probably (like most of us) told white lies all her life... "oh, what a lovely chartreuse sweater!" Since these are harmless - indeed, intended to avoid harm - they do not create a moral issue. The lies of self-defense, those about being Alayne, about Marillon, about sweetsleep (to herself), also are justifiable, I think. I worry when she tries to harden her heart against Marillon, beating down the whisper of conscience that admits that he did not kill Lysa. That seems much less focused on not dying and much more going toward the argument that he's a bad person in general, so a little injustice doesn't matter. But that's the LF rationale for framing Tyrion for Joff's murder, and in part for killing Dontos once his usefulness was over.

LF lies to further his self interest, not to avoid hurting people, and not primarily tp avoid death or pain. I'd hate for Sansa to confuse profit with survival, expediency with justice, or weakness with compassion. Stay away from my Sansa, Baelish!

[bgona]

...

I definitely don't think that Sansa agreed to be little Robert's mother for selfish reasons. There's no benefit to her; it only increases the reliance of this very needy, bratty, difficult child on her, already something Sansa has been shown as trying to lessen, at least in terms of limiting his time in her bed at night. There's absolutely no reason not to tell the kid a white lie that Littlefinger loved his mother; what good would it do to imply that Littlefinger didn't love Lysa, or doesn't have Robert's best interests at heart - while the latter is true, if Robert knew it, he would be more stressed, have more and perhaps worse seizures, and die sooner, not to mention suffer more. I think Sansa was definitely trying to be kind when she agreed to be Robert's 'mother'. She can understand what it is to miss one's dead mother, to be and feel alone.

...

Raksha I agree with most of your post (you have express many of my thoughts). I am worry about how the influence of LF will affect to Sansa. Who she will come. I really hope that all her moral learning from her parents and also Robb (to whom she was more unite) will help her to recover. I believe Arya is in a better shape than Sansa.

In the only thing that I disagree is in the fact that she could not say nothing about Lf love for Lysa. That lie was not ask for nobody, will not help to her survival, it will only make SR trust LF.

[Maroucia]

Is no one up for Marillion crackpotting? :) I mean it's certainly possible that LF has frightened him into complying with the lie, but it would just be like LF to keep Marillion around for some nefarious purposes... Also, did anyone get the feeling that LF was quite happy not to make Marillion stop singing? I feel like he wanted Sansa to be completely stressed out during this time.

He also probably hopes this will help to destroy her love for songs…

[bgona]

Lady Kraken maybe she doesn´t realize but his kisses are a danger for her. It is then when he turns to be LF.

He represents a sexual threatening to Sansa.

[bgona]

He also probably hopes this will help to destroy her love for songs…

Also being inable to sleep is a torture. Staying without sleeping slow down your thoughts.

Anyway the most strange is that just after telling the story, that night he doesn´t sing no more. Cause due to this fact Sansa can sleep (she only can sleep when he is not singing).

[Lyanna Stark]

Is no one up for Marillion crackpotting? :) I mean it's certainly possible that LF has frightened him into complying with the lie, but it would just be like LF to keep Marillion around for some nefarious purposes... Also, did anyone get the feeling that LF was quite happy not to make Marillion stop singing? I feel like he wanted Sansa to be completely stressed out during this time.

I missed this one before! There's totally something really fishy with Marillion and yes, LF could definitely have stopped him singing. I also don't think Marillion had his fingers cut off, and I think he still has his eyes. Not sure he is still alive, but there's absolutely something there that isn't right. What would LF want with a disgraced singer with rape tendencies who knows his darkest secret? (or well, one of them?) What is clear is that Marillion can't be himself anymore, unless LF means for him to freeze to death at the Eyrie. He too needs to take another identity. Or alternatively be wrapped in tapestries??

LF is up to so many strange things, Marillion, tapestries, plotting for the time with the three Queens, poisoning Sweetrobin, hiring Varys's spies, etc.

[bgona]

Here's some useful info from Arya I of AFFC that might be relevant for our analysis of Sansa's arc: Intriguing possibilities for the giant prophecy to do with Sansa, as well as the similarity in how both of the girls think of themselves now, and their family. (FWIW, the boat that brings Arya to Braavos is called the Titan's Daughter.)

And both are now Titan´s Daughters. Arya been a daughter of Bravos (a resident, a citizen) and Sansa acting as the daughter of LF (that his family came from Bravos).