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From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI


brashcandy

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So great and so good as ever!!!

Things that puzzle me:

- Sansa calls Marillion the dead man. Even staying him alive. Why try to give us GRRM that idea that is a dead man?

- Who was the bard that stayed 6 months? Any guess?

- Marillion sings over Dance of Dragons (Daenerys), Jonquil and Florian (always that references brings to me Sansa), Jenny of Oldstonnes and the Prince of Dragonfly (I don´t now why but I think about Jenny and Theon, but I don´t remember about was that song), treasons (Jon Snow maybe, not at all sure), cruel murderes (Tyrion and Tywin, Devan, the Freys), hanged persons (Lady Stoneheart), bloody revenges (Arya), pain and sadness (Brienne and Jaime, I don´t know why but always feel kind of sad with her, but also can be Bran). I don´t know but I was reading about the songs all these people came to my mind.

- I am concern about Sansa asking Petyr to silence Marillion. Does she realize what she was asking?

- Sansa is puzzle by all that Lysa said before dying.

- It is a constant in Sansa and people interacting her to have a duality: Alayne, Petyr-LF).

- I hate the translated name of Robert (SR) when Sansa is speaking to him in Spanish Robalito (I don´t in English).

- Sansa discription of the High Hall demostrates all her apprehension. It is all disgusting, as when she discribed Joffrey fat lips after beating.

- Petyr let Marillion sing, so he can lie. All sings are lies. A mockingbird sings (so tells lies). Sansa likes songs. That make some sense to any?

- Petyr hold Sansa wrist at the end. As when The Hound holded her wrist. That kind of touch seems as a sexual desire touch.

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And both are now Titan´s Daughters. Arya been a daughter of Bravos (a resident, a citizen) and Sansa acting as the daughter of LF (that his family came from Bravos).

Really good point, bgona :) I like how Martin is still bonding them together as sisters despite the differences and distances between them. After Arya's contention that the Titan could step over the walls of winterfell, I'm nearly almost certain now that the giant Sansa slays will be Littlefinger.

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Really good point, bgona :) I like how Martin is still bonding them together as sisters despite the differences and distances between them. After Arya's contention that the Titan could step over the walls of winterfell, I'm nearly almost certain now that the giant Sansa slays will be Littlefinger.

Brashcandy Arya and Sansa are bonded in many aspects. What Ned told Arya is true, they are 2 faces of a same coin.

Arya:

Lost Nymeria

Nymeria is at the Riverland

Germen of Gendry love story

Follow steps Masterspy Varys

Kept Needle

Been Nobody

Staying at Braavos

Isolated

Still strong feelings towar Winterfell

Sansa

Lost Lady

The Hound is at the Riverland

Germen of Sandor love story

Follow steps Mastermind LF

Kept the cloak

Been Alayne

Staying with a man that his family is at Braavos

Isolated

Still strong feelings toward Winterfell

I´m sure that I forget many.

Edit: not tab allowed

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well he hired the mad mouse unintenionally but would he be that stupid to do that intionally? well it shows of petyrs arrpgance

I don't actually think he knows Ser Shadrich is Varys' spy. Brienne meeting the Mad Mouse seems like a bit of exposition to make us wonder if Ser Shadrich will find out who Alayne really is. As much as I think LF is freaky, I hope Alayne will get to stay in the Vale a bit longer so she can learn more from LF, and have a bit of time to metaphorically catch her breath and mull things over. From Ned's beheading to after Nestor Royce agreeing that Marillion killed Lysa, her life has been as close to a nightmare you can come, almost. The poor girl needs some time to process what has happened, and despite LF being a creepy leech, at least it will be harder for him to sexually assault her at the Gates, since there are more people there and he needs to be more careful.

But this is jumping ahead a bit, so I'll continue this line of thought later. :) (Together with more TAPESTRY THEORIES!!)

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@ Maroucia--I had a friend email me that photo yesterday! Love it! :D

Anyway, I figured this might be a good time as any to post this, as Maroucia brought up different characters taking on another "identity". Plus since we're starting AFFC, I thought I would post some thoughts I had regarding Sandor and Sansa.

At this time, Sansa is stuck in the Vale with LF. Sandor has been left to die, by Arya in Saltpans, and we assume that he's now that big gravedigger on the QI.

We know that Sandor Clegane was chosen to replace Ser Barristan Selmy, on the Kingsguard, becoming the first member ever not to have been a sworn knight.

I think doing this serves two purposes. One, that on the surface Sandor is Barristan's antithesis. Seriously, how ironic that the man who professes to hate knights, replaces one of the greatest knights of his time, Ser Barristan . Yet we see throughout the series that Sandor does seem to have some sort of honor and chivalry, albeit a bit rusty (especially when it comes to Sansa). Two, I feel having him replace Barristan might foreshadow where his character could be going after he gets off the Quiet Isle.

Also, I have to admit I think GRRM is trying to show us something about Sandor in regard to how Septon Meribald speaks of Dog:

"The Seven are always with me,” said Meribald, “and I have my faithful servant, and Dog.”

“Does your dog have a name?” asked Podrick Payne.

“He must,” said Meribald, “but he is not my dog. Not him.”

Sandor is no one's dog either. He's says he's his own dog now:

The archer looked at him a long while before he said, “You’re Joffrey’s dog. “

“My own dog now."

The dog barked and wagged his tail. He was a huge, shaggy creature, ten stone of dog at least, but friendly.

Sandor is definitely a large, strong, man. Shaggy? Maybe. Friendly?! Perhaps Sandor's anger has been "tempered" a bit. :P

“Who does he belong to?” asked Podrick.

“Why, to himself, and to the Seven. As to his name, he has not told me what it is. I call him Dog.”

Sandor is his own man now, and perhaps a changed one due to the Seven and the Brothers. After Sandor leaves the QI, what kind of man will he be? Will be pledge himself in someone's service? Is he going to be a "faithful servant"? Everyone called Sandor "Dog". Sansa even asks him why he lets them do that. Also if the Hound aspect of his persona is dead, what will take its place? What will he be called now, if anything? With the Hound "gone" will he finally be .."Sandor"?

And there's this part of the conversation:

“Oh.” Podrick did not know what to make of a dog named Dog, plainly. The boy chewed on that a while, then said, “I used to have a dog when I was little. I called him Hero.”

“Was he?”

“Was he what?”

“A hero.”

“No. He was a good dog, though. He died.”

Will Sandor finally get to be the "knight" he wanted to be when he was a boy? Will he get to "play the hero"? (But still a grouchy one!) ;)

As for the "good dog" dying, perhaps it alludes again to the death of the Hound aspect, or that maybe, Sandor gives his life over for a greater cause, one bigger than himself. This could mean either dedicating his life to something/someone or that he makes the ultimate sacrifice of his life. If he is directly paralleling Barristan, Barristan said his goal was to find his true King and die in his service. (Gods I hope that doesn't happen! :o :crying: ).

I don't think I can imagine him becoming one of the Faith Militant or serving the Seven in that type of way. Also, technically right now he can't become a Warrior's Son since he's not a knight. Though any knight can make a knight, and the Elder Brother was a knight before he came to the Quiet Isle.

However, I can see him pledging his life to protect someone (maybe Sansa). If he finds out that she's "lost", will he want to find her? How would he find out? Before Brienne even mentions her name, the Elder Brother already knows about Sansa, and we have to assume the Hound told him when he was fevered and dying. But it is said that the Elder Brother keeps the worst news from "outside" to himself:

"He keeps the worst of the tidings from outside to himself, so as not to disturb the tranquillity of the septry. Many of our brothers came here to escape the horrors of the world, not to dwell upon them. Brother Clement was not the only wounded man amongst us. Some wounds do not show.”

Part of Sansa's arc involves her love of stories and songs, the ones that are about chivalrous knights and their ladies. Time and time again, we see that she's told "life is not a song", which I believe she's learning through some of the experiences she's had. She also knows appearances aren't all they're cracked up to be, and just because something or someone is beautiful in appearance, it doesn't mean they are necessarily "good".

In one of the last chapters, Sansa's also said she felt "her song was over". I don't think that's true at all, far from it actually. She'll learn new songs, once she finds her own strengths. And I think that part of her arc will be that sometimes, life is a song. It might sound corny, but I do feel there's a chance that Sandor just might become something like one of the figures in her beloved songs, and perhaps, attempt some kind of a rescue. :fencing:

Finally there's this:

“Dog keeps me safe upon the roads, even in such trying times as these. Neither wolf nor outlaw dare molest me when Dog is at my side.”

I think that quote speaks for itself... B)

Before I wrap this up, I want to mention one more thing I noticed:

Also it's interesting enough that Septon Meribald fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Hoster Tully (Catelyn's father) became acquainted with Lord Baelish during this event which subsequently led to Lord Tully taking his son, Petyr, on as a ward.

I wonder if at that time, Septon Meribald served Hoster Tully? He said he was born and has lived his entire life in the Riverlands. The Tully's control that area or did up until the War of the Five Kings.

Plus maybe Septon Meribald might know something about some of those mysterious caves, he said he's walked the Riverlands for 40 years:

"I glimpse the castles of the great lords only at a distance, but I know the market towns and holdfasts, the villages too small to have a name, the hedges and the hills, the rills where a thirsty man can drink and the caves where he can shelter."

I hope to be back later, maybe with some thoughts on the last chapter, but I think everyone said pretty much what I would have touched on! Not sure I have too much to add to it! Great stuff guys! :thumbsup:

Edit: spelling mistakes..

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Great posts as usual and so enlightening. I totally missed the first time around the inconsistencies with Marillion, if that in fact is him. But what would have happened to the real Marillion if the guy they brought in before Nestor was not the real one and who is the guy they brought in? Hmmmm.

Also, can someone refresh my memory again as to why we know that Shadrich is one of Varys's spies? I am blanking on that right now and don't have my book handy.

Bgona I loved all the analogies you mentioned between Arya and Sansa, especially that they are both Titan's daughters now. I agree with Brash that this makes it even more likely that LF is the giant whom Sansa will slay. QOW the dog references with Septon Meribald were great! I knew I liked that guy.

The big thing that jumped out at me is the focus on lies, lying, whether there can ever be a good lie or when is it okay to lie if ever. This is Sansa's first chapter in AFFC, and at the end of the last book, in Sam's last chapter I think, we have Sam agonizing over whether it is okay to lie if it's for an honorable reason, ie can there be an honorable lie. Then we get all this focus on lies in Sansa's first chapter of the next book, which is probably around the same time as when Sam was considering this. There's definitely a parallel going on here that makes the reader consider this moral dilemma in his or her own life.

It could also be seen as a developmental issue too. When we are children/very young, we are told that we should never lie because it is wrong and bad things can happen as a result. I have told my kids the same thing. As we grow however, we realize that there may be times when it is okay to lie or even beneficial, and we have to sort through when those cases might arise. Also, as we grow we learn that there can even be a "good" lie, such as when it would hurt someone's feelings to tell the truth. Then, as we get even older we have to sort through the moral implications more, such as whether it is okay to lie to save ourselves especially if it in some way will hurt someone else, and whether that soemone else is your friend or foe. It's as if Sansa's maturity and growth are being symbolized by her lies, her ability to lie convincingly and the situations she is put in in which she needs to lie.

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Great posts, everybody!

I personally think that Marillion is dead. Why would Littlefinger keep one of the two people who knows he murdered his wife, the Lady of the Eyrie, around after he was no longer needed. If some fake Marillion were brought before the Vale-lords to testify, that would be one more loose end that LF would have had to dispose of; and dealing with the true Marillion would have been tricky enough. I think that Marillion was encouraged to take a dive off the sky cell, probably drugged and pushed. The longer LF let him hang around in the sky cell, the greater risk that Marillion would have started singing about Littlefinger killing Lysa instead of Florian & Jonquil or whatever.

Sorry to throw a wet blanket at the crackpotting...

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Well, that does seem to make the most sense. Here's another question I thought of. When Marillion is brought in blindfolded isn't that a dead give away that he's been tortured into confessing? Why wouldn't the Lords of the Vale question this? Is it because Sansa is so convincing?

Also, I meant to post this in my earlier post, but LF wants her to be his daughter Alayne in her heart but he kisses her in a very unfatherly like way. No wonder the poor girl is so confused! I'm confused and I'm a grown woman because he seems so sincere that he wants her to be his daughter.

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Well, that does seem to make the most sense. Here's another question I thought of. When Marillion is brought in blindfolded isn't that a dead give away that he's been tortured into confessing? Why wouldn't the Lords of the Vale question this? Is it because Sansa is so convincing?

Also, I meant to post this in my earlier post, but LF wants her to be his daughter Alayne in her heart but he kisses her in a very unfatherly like way. No wonder the poor girl is so confused! I'm confused and I'm a grown woman because he seems so sincere that he wants her to be his daughter.

I think he is referring to her being his daughter like Gilly being Craster's daughter. :ack:

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Bgona I loved all the analogies you mentioned between Arya and Sansa

I saw a great comment on another site the other day:

I like how everyone thinks Arya is awesome for her assassin training: learning how to control her facial features, learning how to become someone else, understanding the proper movements, motions, and language to be someone she is not. And yet Sansa already does all this, has done this, and is still doing it and without practice or ever stopping (except maybe when she is all alone, but that is not that often). The parallel between Arya's training and Sansa's life is actually amazing if you think about it. Arya is training to be a faceless man, but in many ways Sansa already is.

As to what's ahead for Sansa, I guess one major question is "what will Sansa want going forward?" Will she keep playing the game of thrones, and if so, why? Sansa has never shown any interest in power per se -- but back in AGOT she did desperately want to be a queen, mostly so her songs/storybook fantasies could come true.

Now, this AFFC chapter began with the story of the singer who went to once stayed to Winterfell, how Sansa loved him, and how though she desperately begged and prayed for the singer to come back, "the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent." Obviously this is George's umpteenth metaphorical representation of how Sansa is learning that life is not like the songs.

So Sansa now identifies the game of thrones with self-preservation rather than songs/fantasies, as the only way to keep herself alive in this dangerous world. But once the opportunity to be a lady ruling a kingdom -- or to be a queen -- is presented to her, will she still want it? We'll get to the Harry the Heir plan later, but if we ever get a peek at the first Sansa TWOW chapter it would be very interesting to see whether Sansa has returned, even a little bit, to her old fantasies (though they'd obviously now be tempered with much real-world experience). There is that ACOK line of "If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me" that could suggest Sansa developing a "Good Queen" persona. (If the Lannisters fall in the next book and LF reveals Sansa's existence, she could use the Vale's ample food stocks to feed the Riverlands and develop a reputation as a feeder of the hungry.)

One more point about the theme of lies -- to Sansa, Sandor always brought truth into the world of courtly lies at KL. Yet Sandor is now believed responsible for the massacre of the Saltpans, one of the worst crimes of the war. If Sansa is Lady of Winterfell (or the Vale or Riverlands) or Queen of Westeros, it would be difficult to justify giving this supposed brutal criminal any role in her life. So I see any potential role of Sandor in her life conflicting with her potentially more-important-than-ever role in Westerosi politics -- they are two different paths, if you will, and I think one day Sansa will have to choose between them.

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Well, that does seem to make the most sense. Here's another question I thought of. When Marillion is brought in blindfolded isn't that a dead give away that he's been tortured into confessing? Why wouldn't the Lords of the Vale question this? Is it because Sansa is so convincing?

What was very clear in that chapter was that Royce and the other men hated Marillion so much that everything LF and Sansa said was probably just icing on the cake. They wanted to believe that Marillion was guilty, so he actually ended up being the perfect scapegoat.

Great posts, everybody!

I personally think that Marillion is dead. Why would Littlefinger keep one of the two people who knows he murdered his wife, the Lady of the Eyrie, around after he was no longer needed. If some fake Marillion were brought before the Vale-lords to testify, that would be one more loose end that LF would have had to dispose of; and dealing with the true Marillion would have been tricky enough. I think that Marillion was encouraged to take a dive off the sky cell, probably drugged and pushed. The longer LF let him hang around in the sky cell, the greater risk that Marillion would have started singing about Littlefinger killing Lysa instead of Florian & Jonquil or whatever.

Sorry to throw a wet blanket at the crackpotting...

I'm not convinced that it would be too much of a problem for LF to bring in an imposter and then get rid of him via a ship out of Gulltown promptly, or just pulling another Dontos. There were some curious discrepancies in that confession scene, and it would make sense if LF really didn't take such a risk in bringing the real Marillion before the lords. I think that Marillion was obviously the one singing all that time, but I'm leaning towards the crackpot that LF had another person brought in to see the lords. Sansa notices that the voice is whispery, which could be in an attempt to conceal the difference in voices between the men. Anyways, all this is conjecture and crackpotting :)

I saw a great comment on another site the other day:

As to what's ahead for Sansa, I guess one major question is "what will Sansa want going forward?" Will she keep playing the game of thrones, and if so, why? Sansa has never shown any interest in power per se -- but back in AGOT she did desperately want to be a queen, mostly so her songs/storybook fantasies could come true.

Now, this AFFC chapter began with the story of the singer who went to once stayed to Winterfell, how Sansa loved him, and how though she desperately begged and prayed for the singer to come back, "the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent." Obviously this is George's umpteenth metaphorical representation of how Sansa is learning that life is not like the songs.

So Sansa now identifies the game of thrones with self-preservation rather than songs/fantasies, as the only way to keep herself alive in this dangerous world. But once the opportunity to be a lady ruling a kingdom -- or to be a queen -- is presented to her, will she still want it? We'll get to the Harry the Heir plan later, but if we ever get a peek at the first Sansa TWOW chapter it would be very interesting to see whether Sansa has returned, even a little bit, to her old fantasies (though they'd obviously now be tempered with much real-world experience). There is that ACOK line of "If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me" that could suggest Sansa developing a "Good Queen" persona. (If the Lannisters fall in the next book and LF reveals Sansa's existence, she could use the Vale's ample food stocks to feed the Riverlands and develop a reputation as a feeder of the hungry.)

One more point about the theme of lies -- to Sansa, Sandor always brought truth into the world of courtly lies at KL. Yet Sandor is now believed responsible for the massacre of the Saltpans, one of the worst crimes of the war. If Sansa is Lady of Winterfell (or the Vale or Riverlands) or Queen of Westeros, it would be difficult to justify giving this supposed brutal criminal any role in her life. So I see any potential role of Sandor in her life conflicting with her potentially more-important-than-ever role in Westerosi politics -- they are two different paths, if you will, and I think one day Sansa will have to choose between them.

Awesome point about Sansa being like a FM already :) and yes, it does seem that the road that leads to Sandor and the road to Queenship are two very separate and distinct options. However, it still has to be noted that Sandor did lie for Sansa back in King's Landing, so even he who always stresses brutal honesty still bent his rules to help protect her. But I do suspect that Sansa's lies are going to have to take on an increasingly more dangerous and ugly nature if she is going to escape her bondage with LF.

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So Sansa now identifies the game of thrones with self-preservation rather than songs/fantasies, as the only way to keep herself alive in this dangerous world. But once the opportunity to be a lady ruling a kingdom -- or to be a queen -- is presented to her, will she still want it? We'll get to the Harry the Heir plan later, but if we ever get a peek at the first Sansa TWOW chapter it would be very interesting to see whether Sansa has returned, even a little bit, to her old fantasies (though they'd obviously now be tempered with much real-world experience). There is that ACOK line of "If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me" that could suggest Sansa developing a "Good Queen" persona. (If the Lannisters fall in the next book and LF reveals Sansa's existence, she could use the Vale's ample food stocks to feed the Riverlands and develop a reputation as a feeder of the hungry.)

One more point about the theme of lies -- to Sansa, Sandor always brought truth into the world of courtly lies at KL. Yet Sandor is now believed responsible for the massacre of the Saltpans, one of the worst crimes of the war. If Sansa is Lady of Winterfell (or the Vale or Riverlands) or Queen of Westeros, it would be difficult to justify giving this supposed brutal criminal any role in her life. So I see any potential role of Sandor in her life conflicting with her potentially more-important-than-ever role in Westerosi politics -- they are two different paths, if you will, and I think one day Sansa will have to choose between them.

Excellent post, Lost Lord! :)

I've been feeling for a while now, that Sansa is not going to want to play the Game after everything she's been through. She's seen and experienced too much (intrigues, multiple attempts at marriage,etc) not to mention being disillusioned with court life. But would she make a great Queen? I definitely think so, assuming she could rule the way she wishes to (making the people love her, etc).

However, when you also consider how she feels about family and home (longing for her family, missing Winterfell, having a place that she belonged) I can see where she may decide to be a little fish in a big pond. I think the poor girl is going to be weary of the world, and she might not want the problems that come with being Queen.

Ultimately, I think she's going to make the choice based upon what will make her the happiest and what she feels she can't live without. Will she want the love of the people more than the love of one man (even if it's not Sandor)? Will she want either at all? Will either choice be "enough" for her? Because she might not be able to have both.

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I've been feeling for a while now, that Sansa is not going to want to play the Game after everything she's been through. She's seen and experienced too much (intrigues, multiple attempts at marriage,etc) not to mention being disillusioned with court life. But would she make a great Queen? I definitely think so, assuming she could rule the way she wishes to (making the people love her, etc)

totally agree with you here. she may not want to be a queen when the moment presents itself. i can't remember if this was mentioned back in the 1st book with ned & robert, but the people who don't want power are sometimes the better suited for the role: meaning that if ned had been allowed to be regent after robert died, he would've hated it, but he would've also been a really good king. we know that ned and sansa are very much alike, so i can see sansa not wanting to be queen, but if she had to for some reason, she would do it brilliantly...

also, great parallels between arya & sansa. i want these two to meet again so badly! what a bittersweet moment that would be..!

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However, I can see him pledging his life to protect someone (maybe Sansa).

I’m not sure if it has been brought out before, but Sandor has already, in a way and certainly in a subconscious manner, pledged to protect Sansa…

In a scene that we are going to see in tomorrow’s episode :drunk: , after Sansa has been beaten and stripped, Sandor gives her his white cloak. The white cloak is the uniform of the King’s guards and symbolizes the unconditional protection that they swear to offer him until they die.

As I see it, at the exact moment when Sandor gives his cloak to Sansa, he switches side; his allegiance after that event is no longer to Joffery, but to Sansa. We know he no longer will die trying to protect his King, but is now ready to do it for Sansa… I don’t think he realized it, it’s one of those symbolic things that have a lot of importance is the ASOIAF story, but that the characters don’t seem to realize themselves.

When Sansa wrapped herself in Sandor’s cloak again, after the BW, the meaning is different as it’s her time to accept that she truly wants him to have a part in her life.

If he finds out that she's "lost", will he want to find her? How would he find out? Before Brienne even mentions her name, the Elder Brother already knows about Sansa, and we have to assume the Hound told him when he was fevered and dying. But it is said that the Elder Brother keeps the worst news from "outside" to himself:

I may seem I little esoteric, but I’m starting to think that, if Sandor is truly Lady’s replacement, he then should have some sort of connection with Sansa.

I don’t know how it’s going to turn out, but I could definitively see him being able to feel that she needs him and rushing at the right place to find her in an instinctive way…

I would sure like that. :smug:

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I saw a great comment on another site the other day:

As to what's ahead for Sansa, I guess one major question is "what will Sansa want going forward?" Will she keep playing the game of thrones, and if so, why? Sansa has never shown any interest in power per se -- but back in AGOT she did desperately want to be a queen, mostly so her songs/storybook fantasies could come true.

....

My guess: she and Arya are learning to help one of their brother to rule (also Brandon is learning). And that will be Rickon the one to be ruling.

It is as if both are necessary to the North, to help Winterfell. So Sansa is learning and could play the game of thrones to keep her family.

Maybe when she decides to became a player and not a pawn it is when she will begame to rule her life and not been in LF hands.

However with GRRM who can be sure that he won´t kill any Stark children in the two next books?

--------

Thanks for the link!

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