From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Well Ilyn Payne could still play a part as it was noted earlier that he's been involved with Jaime and now Jaime/Brienne are on the Sansa trail. I don't think Ilyn is inherently evil, although the description of his...hovel....would indicate a seriously disturbed man. I wonder if Jaime will be the one who has to slay Ilyn? All his training a foreshadowing of that. Would be interesting....

With retrospect to previously made comments about Lysa...I, too, have noticed a rather lack of compassion for unattractive women by the author. Perhaps his own physical appearance comes into play on how he views Tyrion and yes, it is indeed a common thread today. Everywhere, tv shows/movies/etc, unattractive fat men with gorgeous women. The Drew Carey show was a prime example of GoT with this. Seinfeld was another. The list is endless. It is pretty sad the author chose to continue this line of popular thought by being completely unsympathetic to the less-than-attractive women. I felt very sorry for Lysa. I also felt horrid and sorry for Lollys.

[Elba the Intoner]

Horrah for the new Sansa thread!

Anyway, a few words on the last chapter before the analysis of the new one goes up...

Secondly, I feel that for a good chunk of the chapter, Lysa is being rather brutally caricatured—for all the wrong reasons.

It starts when Lysa is introduced. To use Brashcandy’s quote from her summary:

Now, I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with Lysa being chubby, clumsy, and homely and also happening to be evil. But (for starters) something about Sansa’s description simply doesn’t ring true here. It almost seems as though GRRM is projecting his own feelings of disgust and thoughts about Lysa onto Sansa, even though it wouldn’t make much sense for Sasna to be thinking them. I mean, would a barely 13 year old kid really notice that her aunts “body sagged and bulged” and she had “saggy breasts?” That simply doesn’t seem like the sort of thing a 13 year old kid would think. It sounds like the sort of thing a grown man or woman would think.

Furthermore, Sansa’s disgust and disapproval here seem rather uncharacteristic, judging from everything we’ve seen from Sansa in the past—she seems incredibly put off by Lysa’s old appearance, chubby face, clumsiness, the fact that she is taller and heavier than LF (but why in God’s name would Sansa care about that?) The description seems to drip with disgust. I guess some disgust makes sense, but surely not the amount present here. Furthermore, this simply seems at odds with Sansa’s attitude in the past towards the homely people she encounters—Lolys, Margary’s Septa, even Tyrion, the son of her enemy house—she felt compassion for all of these people. (She is disgusted by the prospect of sleeping with Tyrion, yes, but she is still able to feel sympathy for him and see him as a human being.) Her disgust for Lysa her seems less like Sansa’s own general attitude and perspective than that of the author, judging by his portrayal of people like Lolys, Selyse, and Lysa herself.

This attitude continues here and throughout other chapters. And, just to note, I don't think it's wrong-- it just doesn't sound at all like Sansa as we've gotten to know her from every previous chapter.

[snipped for length]

Queen Cersei you bring up some very good points as always and an alternative perspective that does give one much to think about. However, I have to disagree somewhat with this part of your post that says it's very uncharacteristic of a 13 year old to think this way about a person they have just met. Setting aside for the moment that GRRM is constrained by the point of view narration and Sansa is the only POV here to describe what Lysa looks like, I think kids that age would very much focus on a person's physical attributes and even make judgments about a person based on what they see on the outside. Kids are superficial that way. I know I was, and I hope I have grown out of that by now, but more to the point, we have seen that Sansa is very much this way. She has a crush on Loras and thinks he must be the most gallant knight in all the realm simply because of how he looks. Though she has matured since AGOT and has learned from her experience with Joffrey that not every beautiful person is a good person and not every ugly person is bad, she is still 13 and still a child in many ways.

What's more, she knows that this is her mother's sister and it is very reasonable to make comparisons of someone you first meet with someone you know who is related to that person. It seems that she is thinking, "This is my mother's younger sister? They don't seem to be anything alike. She looks so much older, and she's chubby whereas my mother was not. And she's not at all graceful like my mother. She's not very dignified either." The irony here is that Sansa and her own sister are so very different in looks and personality too.

[Raksha the Demon]

Well Ilyn Payne could still play a part as it was noted earlier that he's been involved with Jaime and now Jaime/Brienne are on the Sansa trail. I don't think Ilyn is inherently evil, although the description of his...hovel....would indicate a seriously disturbed man. I wonder if Jaime will be the one who has to slay Ilyn? All his training a foreshadowing of that. Would be interesting....

With retrospect to previously made comments about Lysa...I, too, have noticed a rather lack of compassion for unattractive women by the author. Perhaps his own physical appearance comes into play on how he views Tyrion and yes, it is indeed a common thread today. Everywhere, tv shows/movies/etc, unattractive fat men with gorgeous women. The Drew Carey show was a prime example of GoT with this. Seinfeld was another. The list is endless. It is pretty sad the author chose to continue this line of popular thought by being completely unsympathetic to the less-than-attractive women. I felt very sorry for Lysa. I also felt horrid and sorry for Lollys.

GRRM's joking attitude about Lollys seems a bit callous; the poor woman goes through an incredible ordeal and is still mocked by just about everyone except her own mother and Sansa. I hope that Bronn is at least somewhat kind to her. I never found the Seinfeld show funny (ditto Drew Carey's), so I didn't watch it and didn't see the pairing of an unattractive man with a pretty woman; but I do think that men who have power/influence will always be a magnet for pretty women, and will usually want to have pretty women around, or at least women they find attractive. (Cleopatra was described by contemporaries as being not beautiful, but charming and interesting, also, she had a rich kingdom)

(long, somewhat relevant digression here:)

One of my longtime favorite science fiction writers, the late Marion Zimmer Bradley (often known as MZB when discussed by her fans), wrote a long and not always completely internally consistent series about a red-sunned planet, Darkover, inhabitated a few thousand years in the future by the descendants of Terran crash-landed colonists; and having evolved a sort of hereditary late feudal telepathic hierarchal society.

In one of the books, Two To Conquer, one of the two protagonists is Bard di Asturien, an extremely arrogant and sexist man who is a bastard but also his father's first-born (and in this world, noble-fathered bastards are usually acknowledged by their fathers and accepted into the system, particularly if they inherit psionic power), is fostered with his father's liege-lord and king and grows up infatuated with the king's daughter Carlina. They are betrothed, Bard, who gets his kicks telepathically coercing other young girls into his bed, actually believes himself in love with the young princess (who is not beautiful, but a rather quiet girl who is not particularly into romance/sex) and thinks Carlina loves him and that they will have a good marriage and he will treat her well. The princess likes the young man as a playmate and friend, but fears him as a potential husband. The betrothal is broken and the boy is exiled, due to his temper and propensity for violence. The princess goes into hiding into an order of healer-women.

Years later, the young man, now older and having ended his exile (and fathered at least one bastard of his own), is still set on reclaiming the princess he feels is 'his' and was stolen from him; he still deludes himself that she will accept him and that he will be a good husband to her (even though he has begun an unusual friendship with a woman who is not physically attractive, a strong-willed and generous, but fat, professional psionic 'sorceress'). He has Carlina kidnapped from her place and brought to him; when she rejects him, he rapes her, claiming it is for her own good, to break her pride. Carlina, being a telepath, then gives him a view of the other side of his arrogance, showing him her memories of how it felt to be menaced by the betrothal to a large, physically violent boy who raped and hurt others, and how it felt to be raped by him. Bard is horrified by what he has done, shaken to his core. He ends up apologizing to the woman he has wronged and releasing her, realizing that he has been a jerk about women for most of his life, marrying the plump sorceress he liked, and renouncing his own claims of kingship for a small lordship and service to the greater good (in this case a new order, with one overlord instead of a several petty kings making war all the time) and trying to help rebuild a land damaged by warfare. What was interesting is that Bard is made to realize, through his searing telepathic 'lesson', that he never truly loved the princess, only what she represented - high rank, social recognition and acceptance (his own mother was of lower rank, he was taken from her as a young child to be reared as his father's son), a place in her powerful father's house and perhaps a shot at ruling her father's kingdom.

That's one of the few times in science fiction or fantasy (and MZB's Darkover series, due to the quasi-feudal hierarchy of most of the societies that have formed over millennia on the planet, shares some elements of fantasy) where a handsome warrior-type ends up with a woman who is not physically beautiful. Of course, Marion Zimmer Bradley was a feminist; and wrote strong-minded women before they were all that common in fantasy or SF.

Excuse the digression, but the plot, and the protagonist, of MZB's Two To Conquer, did remind me a little of Littlefinger's Catelyn obsession. Except that LF prefers seduction over rape; and thinks of himself as a great seducer; and he is more skillfully written than MZB's anti-hero. But in my opinion, Petyr Baelish never truly loved Catelyn Tully; he liked her as a foster-sibling and focussed on her romantically due to his longing for complete social affiliation with this powerful and wealthy Tully family that was raising him (rather than the physically dingy and poor family of House Baelish). And there are huge differences between Carlina, the shy princess-turned-asexual healer in MZB's novel, and the beautiful and romantically hopeful (at the beginning) Sansa. But the trope of a socially inferior man wooing and winning, due to his worth rather than his rank, a beautiful princess, is as old as recorded history. GRRM has subverted that trope quite skillfully, with the undeniably competent power-attaining Petyr Baelish being fixated on a higher-ranked woman who thought of him as a brother, to the point of corrupting her younger sister and then drafting her young daughter into the obsession as a substitute for the mother. Sandor fits the trope too; he is socially well below the Starks on the Westerosi social scale, being the grandson of Lord Lannister's kennel-master; but has proven himself worthy of the beautiful 'princess' Sansa by saving her life and helping her; and he is hopelessly enthralled with her. Neither Littlefinger nor Sandor are, in my opinion, right for Sansa; but Sandor at least has been honest with her at every turn and cares about his 'Little Bird' for herself rather than her likeness to Catelyn Stark or her bloodline/claim to Winterfell.

I've never felt that Ilyn Payne was evil, either. As an executioner, he does not seem to have demonstrated any cruelty, has been a competent headsman, done his best at an unpleasant job. As for being disturbed, well, a man who had a voice, and could not write, who then has his tongue cut out, might have some emotional problems dealing with it, and show this disruption in his equilibrium in other ways than crying or showing of overt weakness (unbecoming to a royal executioner), such as in the disorder of his personal environment. We don't really know that much about Payne, yet. Personally, I wonder why Jaime is spilling his guts to Payne about the affair with Cersei, etc.; the guy could still communicate it to others, or reply with a nod if asked specific questions. And maybe he's learned to write, too. I would suspect that he is loyal to the Lannisters; if I remember correctly, they made him the royal executioner; and that's a pretty good post for a maimed, mute man.

[Caro99]

Thanks for the analysis Raspie! It was great :)

This chapter starts so beautifully written for me. Sansa expresses many bittersweet regrets and longings which made her seem to have matured- especially when we are reminded of the contrasts between the Sansa she remembers from her childhood, and the “young woman” she is supposed to be now as Alayne Stone. QoW, I love the theory of Sansa waking up cause she sort of felt Sandor dying and Arya elaving Westeros. It can be a hint at her warging. But how ironic that possibly on the same day that Sansa avoided being killed, the Hound died, but Sandor managed to cling to life as fiercely as she clung to Lysa’s braid when she was close to the blue…

The moment when she steps out into the snow and thinks it’s like a dream reminds me of Jon back in ACOK waking up to a similar scenery one morning and thinking that Sansa would call it an enchantment if she could see how the snow covered the world and stuff...

So many good phrases: It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. These lines make me think that Sandor probably thought of her like that: she represented innocence and dreams and he didn’t belong with her (like Sansa says about not belonging to the pure white world the garden has become.)

The scene building the snow castle is really pretty and it makes one see how Sansa is indeed from the North and wants to be a part of it once more. She even says herself that she is stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

LF here at first starts out creepy (big surprise) with the “May I come into your castle?” But as he helps her build Winterfell we get to see a “human” side of the powerful mastermind lord from court I think. If we only consider his behavior while he is building the castle, he comes out as an okay father, but then he has to ruin it all. How sad that this is her real first kiss. But I always wonder if LF just did it out of lust or does he have some double intentions with the whole Alayne-is-really-Sansa-Stark-coming-to reclaim-Winterfell-with-my-help plan for the future. Kissing her rught there and then seems like such a loss of compousere from the man. How stupid to kiss her when they were bound to be seen by at least a sevant. And LF, knowing how jealous his wife is, stil goes on and puts Sansa’s life in danger!

But Sansa here comes out strong when we see how she has not allowed Marmillion or LF to take away her virginity. At least I never got the feeling of disgust she expresses here when she recalls Sandor, so hope for the future?

About the whole SweetRobin and his doll being the giant slaying winterfell progohecy, it can very well be a foreshadowing for many thhings to come. But I think that that moment was written to reminds us of what may yet come to pass in Sansa’s story. Cause if it only meant a little boy destroying his cousin’s snow castle, why would the Ghost of High Heart have dreamt of it? Her dreams affect a whole lot of people and events…

It may be that it happened a bit earlier but to me it seems that when Sansa says, “Those are only stories,” to LF, she kind of leaves her childhood behind, cause later on we see her starting to have more mature thoughts and resolutions. The Sansa from AGOT was meant to do as she was told, but here she is ready to defy her aunt and her husband with the plans they have for her…

After Lysa’s confession and what some of you have written about how George wrote her, I get it that it must have been hard for her to finally marry the man she has always adored only to have a much better “copy” of Cat- her bane- come into the picture. But we do get a lot of insight about what happened in Riverrun all those years ago, too. Wonder if Cat was really that flirty with LF and laughed in his face? She doesn’t come across to me like that as an adult, but if she had those traits as a child, wouldn’t she show some signs of it when older? Cersei was always flirty, and so as a grown woman, she has lovers and stuff, but Cat- maybe it was just all in Lysa’s mind?

A theory that had never occurred to me before was Sansa leaving in the Fingers one day until it was first brought up here in this forum. It may indeed be a hint when Lysa says she’ll send her back to the Fingers to spend her life in that bleak shore that Sansa will return there. Hopefully she’ll be happy and willing to do so if it happens.

But the moon door moment is just really horrible to watch. It seems indeed like the breakfast back in Sansa’s first chapter of this book with the Maiden Fair, but every time I read it, I am reminded of the Red Wedding and the Rains of Castamere. Very well written scenes both, and here we can feel what the room must have felt like; we get what Sansa is feeling as she is threatened to be thrown to the blue; and we get a glimpse of Lysa’s mind. I do feel pity for Lysa here, but what she does to Sansa is just wrong. Making her pay for things that only Cat and LF and herself are meant to know about. Every time I think of Lysa’s obsession for LF I am reminded of the passage of The Thorn Birds which talks about a bird which sings once in its lifetime, better than any other creature in existence, & how it spends its life seeking a thorn tree to impale itself upon the sharpest spine. The bird doesn’t know the price he will have to pay for singing that great song, but human beings do know the price will be painful, but still they go on and “impale themselves to reach their goal”. So Lysa could’ve decided to never fall for LF, but she decided to make him her ultimate goal even though she knows deep down he wants Cat. She chose her fate in a way, I think. She is indeed a product of society and what where the rules for sleeping out of wedlock and not being able to give your husband children, but back when she is a little girl she could’ve avoided many bad things that happened to her…

And LF here of course shows us he has never had a heart… Yes, he saved Sansa for which I am grateful, and maybe he didn’t have to kill Lysa since the latter had already set Sansa free, but I can imagine how he must have felt when he saw Lysa about to kill the girl he has longed to own for so long. So I think he reacted with killing Lysa right then and there cause of the threat to his future plans Lysa was. And being LF, he was able to come up with a plan for framing another pretty quickly… Though it is ironic that he despised Lysa’s affection and wasn’t afraid to use them for his own advantage, and one day Sansa may very well do that to him.

I agree with Queen Cersei I that this is probably Sansa’s last childhood chapter- it’s iconic, so maybe that’s why we always remember her building the snow castle from memories of her youth… Its bittersweet yes, but I want to read Sansa’s adult chapters in TWOW so badly! But Maroucia, you are also right in saying that adults can act like children at times. LF does this when he helps Sansa build the castle and she throws him a snowball the way her siblings once did with her.

[brashcandy]

Very enlightening post, Raksha. I agree with you about LF and Cat. He didn't love her truly, just what she represented. It really speaks to the value of getting to know someone as themselves, their personality, their likes and dislikes, their history, what has hurt them, or helped them etc etc. I think this is why Catelyn and Ned came to have a successful marriage, because over time they learnt about one another and loved one another despite the differences.

[Maroucia]

@ Raksha

I'm looking for something to read these days, the book series you were talking about seems pretty good, do you recommend it?

I share your views on Payne: not evil. Still, since we don't know much about him, it's hard to assume anything about him. Myself, I have to admit really liking him AS a character. Can't wait for WOW, something is going to happen between a large number of characters that hang around Saltpans and the Vale...

[Raksha the Demon]

Thanks for the analysis Raspie! It was great :)

This chapter starts so beautifully written for me. Sansa expresses many bittersweet regrets and longings which made her seem to have matured- especially when we are reminded of the contrasts between the Sansa she remembers from her childhood, and the “young woman” she is supposed to be now as Alayne Stone. QoW, I love the theory of Sansa waking up cause she sort of felt Sandor dying and Arya elaving Westeros. It can be a hint at her warging. But how ironic that possibly on the same day that Sansa avoided being killed, the Hound died, but Sandor managed to cling to life as fiercely as she clung to Lysa’s braid when she was close to the blue…

The moment when she steps out into the snow and thinks it’s like a dream reminds me of Jon back in ACOK waking up to a similar scenery one morning and thinking that Sansa would call it an enchantment if she could see how the snow covered the world and stuff...

So many good phrases: It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams. These lines make me think that Sandor probably thought of her like that: she represented innocence and dreams and he didn’t belong with her (like Sansa says about not belonging to the pure white world the garden has become.)

The scene building the snow castle is really pretty and it makes one see how Sansa is indeed from the North and wants to be a part of it once more. She even says herself that she is stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

LF here at first starts out creepy (big surprise) with the “May I come into your castle?” But as he helps her build Winterfell we get to see a “human” side of the powerful mastermind lord from court I think. If we only consider his behavior while he is building the castle, he comes out as an okay father, but then he has to ruin it all. How sad that this is her real first kiss. But I always wonder if LF just did it out of lust or does he have some double intentions with the whole Alayne-is-really-Sansa-Stark-coming-to reclaim-Winterfell-with-my-help plan for the future. Kissing her rught there and then seems like such a loss of compousere from the man. How stupid to kiss her when they were bound to be seen by at least a sevant. And LF, knowing how jealous his wife is, stil goes on and puts Sansa’s life in danger!

But Sansa here comes out strong when we see how she has not allowed Marmillion or LF to take away her virginity. At least I never got the feeling of disgust she expresses here when she recalls Sandor, so hope for the future?

About the whole SweetRobin and his doll being the giant slaying winterfell progohecy, it can very well be a foreshadowing for many thhings to come. But I think that that moment was written to reminds us of what may yet come to pass in Sansa’s story. Cause if it only meant a little boy destroying his cousin’s snow castle, why would the Ghost of High Heart have dreamt of it? Her dreams affect a whole lot of people and events…

It may be that it happened a bit earlier but to me it seems that when Sansa says, “Those are only stories,” to LF, she kind of leaves her childhood behind, cause later on we see her starting to have more mature thoughts and resolutions. The Sansa from AGOT was meant to do as she was told, but here she is ready to defy her aunt and her husband with the plans they have for her…

After Lysa’s confession and what some of you have written about how George wrote her, I get it that it must have been hard for her to finally marry the man she has always adored only to have a much better “copy” of Cat- her bane- come into the picture. But we do get a lot of insight about what happened in Riverrun all those years ago, too. Wonder if Cat was really that flirty with LF and laughed in his face? She doesn’t come across to me like that as an adult, but if she had those traits as a child, wouldn’t she show some signs of it when older? Cersei was always flirty, and so as a grown woman, she has lovers and stuff, but Cat- maybe it was just all in Lysa’s mind?

A theory that had never occurred to me before was Sansa leaving in the Fingers one day until it was first brought up here in this forum. It may indeed be a hint when Lysa says she’ll send her back to the Fingers to spend her life in that bleak shore that Sansa will return there. Hopefully she’ll be happy and willing to do so if it happens.

But the moon door moment is just really horrible to watch. It seems indeed like the breakfast back in Sansa’s first chapter of this book with the Maiden Fair, but every time I read it, I am reminded of the Red Wedding and the Rains of Castamere. Very well written scenes both, and here we can feel what the room must have felt like; we get what Sansa is feeling as she is threatened to be thrown to the blue; and we get a glimpse of Lysa’s mind. I do feel pity for Lysa here, but what she does to Sansa is just wrong. Making her pay for things that only Cat and LF and herself are meant to know about. Every time I think of Lysa’s obsession for LF I am reminded of the passage of The Thorn Birds which talks about a bird which sings once in its lifetime, better than any other creature in existence, & how it spends its life seeking a thorn tree to impale itself upon the sharpest spine. The bird doesn’t know the price he will have to pay for singing that great song, but human beings do know the price will be painful, but still they go on and “impale themselves to reach their goal”. So Lysa could’ve decided to never fall for LF, but she decided to make him her ultimate goal even though she knows deep down he wants Cat. She chose her fate in a way, I think. She is indeed a product of society and what where the rules for sleeping out of wedlock and not being able to give your husband children, but back when she is a little girl she could’ve avoided many bad things that happened to her…

And LF here of course shows us he has never had a heart… Yes, he saved Sansa for which I am grateful, and maybe he didn’t have to kill Lysa since the latter had already set Sansa free, but I can imagine how he must have felt when he saw Lysa about to kill the girl he has longed to own for so long. So I think he reacted with killing Lysa right then and there cause of the threat to his future plans Lysa was. And being LF, he was able to come up with a plan for framing another pretty quickly… Though it is ironic that he despised Lysa’s affection and wasn’t afraid to use them for his own advantage, and one day Sansa may very well do that to him.

I agree with Queen Cersei I that this is probably Sansa’s last childhood chapter- it’s iconic, so maybe that’s why we always remember her building the snow castle from memories of her youth… Its bittersweet yes, but I want to read Sansa’s adult chapters in TWOW so badly! But Maroucia, you are also right in saying that adults can act like children at times. LF does this when he helps Sansa build the castle and she throws him a snowball the way her siblings once did with her.

I think that while one of LF's motives for murdering Lysa was to protect Sansa, the other was a realization that Lysa had become not only unglued but a visible threat to his own safety because she was babbling away a huge and damning secret - LF's urging Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and then tell Catelyn that she suspected the Lannisters of doing it - in front of not only Sansa, but the opportunistic Marillion. LF might have been able to keep Lysa around as his wife and Vale Protectorship Pretext (more valid than being SweetRobin's widowed stepfather) for at least a few months longer by sending Sansa to the Fingers with perhaps Lothar Brune to protect her; but once Lysa started ranting about all she had done for her sweet Petyr, her days, and minutes, were numbered. I still felt sorry for Lysa; having waited what, seventeen years to marry the only man she ever loved, through an unhappy marriage, the loss of children; and she finally gets Petyr back in her arms as her legal husband, for a few weeks, and then he kicks her out the Moon Door...And I don't like Lysa, but LF used her cruelly and ruthlessly, as he uses everyone else.

[Queen of Winter]

I don't want to take away from the current chapter discussion, but I wanted to know if anyone else thought of the following. It might be considered a crackpot theory, (or perhaps I'm crazy) but .....

We know that Dany has had her prophecy of "The Three Betrayals", and after some thought, I wondered if Sansa herself might have something similar going on within her story arc.

You'll recall that Dany was told that she'd be betrayed: " Once for gold, once for blood, and once for love."

Regarding Sansa and her possible betrayals, I thought that perhaps the "once for blood", might relate to her father's beheading. This happened after she was told that Ned would be shown mercy if he "confessed his treasons".

The "once for gold", might parallel Littlefinger whisking her away from KL and to the Vale. When he "rescued" her from KL, Sansa thought that she was going home. LF states he wants to help her regain Winterfell, but we know (well...assume) that he wants to use her to gain control of Winterfell, and the Vale through various marriages. Could this be considered a betrayal for "gold" (or wealth/power).

What might wind up being the betrayal for love? (if there is one).

[brashcandy]

QoW, the gold would be Dontos - according to LF who sells her out for I forget how many gold dragons. But since this is Sansa's story, and not Dany's, I'm hoping that her last betrayal for love will be the one she does herself. FU to Tyrion and LF, and heads off with Sandor.

[Queen of Winter]

QoW, the gold would be Dontos - according to LF who sells her out for I forget how many gold dragons

You know I debated whether it was LF or Dontos, but I think you might be right on that one. Hmmm...

But since this is Sansa's story, and not Dany's, I'm hoping that her last betrayal for love will be the one she does herself. FU to Tyrion and LF, and heads off with Sandor.

Preach it sister! :love: :D

[Raksha the Demon]

@ Raksha

I'm looking for something to read these days, the book series you were talking about seems pretty good, do you recommend it?

I share your views on Payne: not evil. Still, since we don't know much about him, it's hard to assume anything about him. Myself, I have to admit really liking him AS a character. Can't wait for WOW, something is going to happen between a large number of characters that hang around Saltpans and the Vale...

I sent you a message about the Darkover series, Maroucia; didn't want to clutter up the thread with it.

I've enjoyed the Jaime/Payne interactions; Payne is certainly more fun as Jaime's sparring partner than as a doom-and-gloom walking death figure. And I do think that Sansa could run into them, whether on her own or as a captive being taken back to King's Landing by Shadrich, or in some other situation, I'm not sure. Love to see a Jaime/Sansa/Sandor meeting, that would be something!

[Caro99]

girls,i was just over at the fysandorclegane page over at livejournal and they mentioned the following in regards with George and his take on Sansa building the castle of snow!! not sure i can post this here though, so i'll tag it under spoilers :)

Also, not to hijack the thread, but

sansastark on Tumblr apparently met GRRM today, and her friend Clare told him that she thought Sansa rebuilding Winterfell was the most beautiful thing and she hopes it means something in the future. To which GRRM replied: "It does."

so we can all begin to think what that means regarding LF/Alayne/Sansa/Sandor/Brienne/Jaime and the other Stark children

[Grail King]

Well Ilyn Payne could still play a part as it was noted earlier that he's been involved with Jaime and now Jaime/Brienne are on the Sansa trail. I don't think Ilyn is inherently evil, although the description of his...hovel....would indicate a seriously disturbed man. I wonder if Jaime will be the one who has to slay Ilyn? All his training a foreshadowing of that. Would be interesting....

With retrospect to previously made comments about Lysa...I, too, have noticed a rather lack of compassion for unattractive women by the author. Perhaps his own physical appearance comes into play on how he views Tyrion and yes, it is indeed a common thread today. Everywhere, tv shows/movies/etc, unattractive fat men with gorgeous women. The Drew Carey show was a prime example of GoT with this. Seinfeld was another. The list is endless. It is pretty sad the author chose to continue this line of popular thought by being completely unsympathetic to the less-than-attractive women. I felt very sorry for Lysa. I also felt horrid and sorry for Lollys.

I don't think it's Grrm who lacks compassion, he's letting us see how actual people do react, I'll take it one step further; I had a party at my house this weekend and we were watching GOT on HBO if any of you watched it I'm referring to the scene where Theon is with the captains daughter, during that scene at least 10 WOMEN in my house berated the actress on her mouth, her breast and general looks, these are the same women who run an HR dept, run a library, medical office worker, a couple of college girls married and single etc. they constantly made snide remarks on her body, the men saw nothing wrong with the actress body but they did chuckle when Theon told her to smile with her mouth closed, so is it really the author or people in general and women do it just as often or more then men, just ask Ashley Judd.

[Grail King]

anyone remember the thread where I think Lyanna Stark talked to GRRM and had a link.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Well I sure hope Sansa's story arc doesn't turn dark like Jeyne Poole's did....with Sansa disappointing LF and him sending her off to a brothel.

After the red wedding and other such events......*shudder*

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I don't think it's Grrm who lacks compassion, he's letting us see how actual people do react, I'll take it one step further; I had a party at my house this weekend and we were watching GOT on HBO if any of you watched it I'm referring to the scene where Theon is with the captains daughter, during that scene at least 10 WOMEN in my house berated the actress on her mouth, her breast and general looks, these are the same women who run an HR dept, run a library, medical office worker, a couple of college girls married and single etc. they constantly made snide remarks on her body, the men saw nothing wrong with the actress body but they did chuckle when Theon told her to smile with her mouth closed, so is it really the author or people in general and women do it just as often or more then men, just ask Ashley Judd.

Well women are trained from the start to do the cat-fighting. To knock each other down to raise their own level. Probably why I don't really have any female friends! The competition is exhausting!

The girl in the scene mentioned....wasn't a "hot babe" but the character wasn't supposed to be so I didn't think much of her except that she was smaller than as described in the book. I somehow thought she was plump in the book but the girl in the show was thin.

[Elba the Intoner]

Well Ilyn Payne could still play a part as it was noted earlier that he's been involved with Jaime and now Jaime/Brienne are on the Sansa trail. I don't think Ilyn is inherently evil, although the description of his...hovel....would indicate a seriously disturbed man. I wonder if Jaime will be the one who has to slay Ilyn? All his training a foreshadowing of that. Would be interesting....

With retrospect to previously made comments about Lysa...I, too, have noticed a rather lack of compassion for unattractive women by the author. Perhaps his own physical appearance comes into play on how he views Tyrion and yes, it is indeed a common thread today. Everywhere, tv shows/movies/etc, unattractive fat men with gorgeous women. The Drew Carey show was a prime example of GoT with this. Seinfeld was another. The list is endless. It is pretty sad the author chose to continue this line of popular thought by being completely unsympathetic to the less-than-attractive women. I felt very sorry for Lysa. I also felt horrid and sorry for Lollys.

What about Brienne? I thenk GRRM is sympathetic to her. And one of the characters that was brought up in this discussion originally is Cersei who is described as beautiful on the outside.

[Caro99]

anyone remember the thread where I think Lyanna Stark talked to GRRM and had a link.

i hope you mean this one: http://www.westeros....w_at_Eastercon/

George answers her question at about 1: 08:15 :)

---EDIT---

oh, sorry y'all, what i posted earlier regarding George and the castle of snow apparently may have been to hasty to publish:

Apparently the girl who told him about the castle build of snow clarified on her tumblr page,

"me: the sansa building winterfell out of snow was the most beautiful thing i’ve ever read

grrm: *words of thanks while i keep talking*

me: and i hope it means something

grrm: well yes

at first i freaked, thought he meant that YES it meant something for sansa. however it quickly came to me that he could just think i meant it was a compliment as i was vague and stuttery and awful.

ALSO please take into account that he earlier said that he does NOT confirm fan theories ever

therefore would not have meant such a thing

i only got like two seconds with the man and stephie/tam know the earlier conversation stuff so i’ll let them post it (because that is HILARIOUS i stg)

but in all honesty

i had far more conversation with sophie turner about sansa and that wasn’t a lot either.

so.

take it as you will. i, the one-track minded fangirl, thought immediately that he meant what i was thinking.

however, on second thought i really don’t think so.

it’d be nice if people signal boost this to the 200+ people who’re freaking over stephie’s post because the last thing i want is to be misinforming people because we had our fangirl flails... so i guess we'll have to wait some more... :(

[Grail King]

i hope you mean this one: http://www.westeros....w_at_Eastercon/

George answers her question at about 1: 08:15 :)

---EDIT---

oh, sorry y'all, what i posted earlier refarding George and the castle of snow apparently may have been to hasty to publish:

Apparently the girl who told him about the castle build of snow clarified on her tumblr page,

"me: the sansa building winterfell out of snow was the most beautiful thing i’ve ever read

grrm: *words of thanks while i keep talking*

me: and i hope it means something

grrm: well yes

at first i freaked, thought he meant that YES it meant something for sansa. however it quickly came to me that he could just think i meant it was a compliment as i was vague and stuttery and awful.

ALSO please take into account that he earlier said that he does NOT confirm fan theories ever

therefore would not have meant such a thing

i only got like two seconds with the man and stephie/tam know the earlier conversation stuff so i’ll let them post it (because that is HILARIOUS i stg)

but in all honesty

i had far more conversation with sophie turner about sansa and that wasn’t a lot either.

so.

take it as you will. i, the one-track minded fangirl, thought immediately that he meant what i was thinking.

however, on second thought i really don’t think so.

it’d be nice if people signal boost this to the 200+ people who’re freaking over stephie’s post because the last thing i want is to be misinforming people because we had our fangirl flails... so i guess we'll have to wait some more... :(

That was it, just finished it, thanks.

[Lyanna Stark]

anyone remember the thread where I think Lyanna Stark talked to GRRM and had a link.

I don't talk to him (unfortunately ), it's Wert talking to him. I'm just being talked *about* to general snickering and giggles. :P (I know who you are, hahaha. <3 )

@Caro99,

Good stuff on the castle in the snow. I think it does hint to Sansa being involved in rebuilding Winterfell. My hope is really that "The She Wolves of Winterfell" is a prelude to what will come with Sansa and Arya, since I think with all they've been through, they would have the fortitude to do so. Not to mention lots of connections to draw on (Need a blacksmith? Hire Gendry. Need an enforcer? Hire the Hound. Need some scary looking people? Take on the BwB left overs who don't like Stoneheart. Need friends in high places? The Vale lords can be easily persuaded. etc etc).

I'd also say that he did confirm it. GRRM never really tells a lot about anything, so that's as close as you will get. ;)