From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

[Queen Cersei I]


at least 10 WOMEN in my house berated the actress on her mouth, her breast and general looks, these are the same women who run an HR dept, run a library, medical office worker, a couple of college girls married and single etc. they constantly made snide remarks on her body, the men saw nothing wrong with the actress body but they did chuckle when Theon told her to smile with her mouth closed, so is it really the author or people in general and women do it just as often or more then men,


Well, before this turns into a "women are meaner than men" fest, I'd just like to note-- I don't think either gender is any meaner/ more critical of women.

Despite the commonly accepted stereotype that women are intrinsically crueler about the looks of other women (something GRRM appears to accept and perpetuates, but more on that later), in my experience, both women and men are equally harsh and cruel about the appearances of others. I'd argue that women in particular come under fire far more for their looks, and critiques of them are generally far more picky and explicit.

However, as to the question of whether men or women are harsher and more critical of the looks of females-- I'd have to say it is pretty much the same, in my experience. The commonly accepted belief that females are generally crueler, bitchier, and more critical of other women while men are generally innocent of such things is, imo, yet another commonly accepted (and all too often unquestioned) belief in our society. I think it comes from both the unfair (but again, commonly accepted) stereotype that all women are petty and jealous and in competition with each other for men; and the unfair double standard the women should be naturally kinder and more accepting than men, so when a woman says something insulting about a woman, it is far more shocking and offensive than a man saying the same thing.

And in these books, I'd say GRRM does perpetuate this as well. In many cases, women who insult and dismiss women on their physical appearances are portrayed as shallow and bitchy, but men who do the same thing are portrayed as acting totally naturally. For instance, Shae makes derogative comments regarding Lolys after the latter's gang rape; however, when tyrion says the same thing, it is presented as hilarious and goes unquestioned. (The author later makes his own cracks about Lolys in the appendixes.) Personally, Most recently, in ADWD, during Cersei’s walk, the queen reflects, “A woman shouted. It was always women who were most cruel when the appearances of other women were concerned.”

Well these books are written by a man, and I must say—they are perhaps more cruel about women’s appearances than any other work of fiction I’ve ever read. Aldous Huxley, too, tended to express queasy disgust for the appearance of ugly and, in particular, aging females as GRRM does here. However, unlike GRRM, he was equally disgusted by both male and female ugliness, and capable of seeing females who were ugly as human beings, and feeling a sort of queasy pity for them when something horrible happened to them. GRRM, for his part, seems unable to feel anything at all for ugly female characters who are not Brienne (who, once again, if she looks anything like the actress GRRM says she “Looks exactly like,” is not the least bit ugly , but actually quite cute, only unusually tall and strong and somewhat unconventionally looking) but disgust and mockery. He treats Lolys like a joke before and after her vicious gang rape.

[Grail King]

Well, before this turns into a "women are meaner than men" fest, I'd just like to note-- I don't think either gender is any meaner/ more critical of women.

Despite the commonly accepted stereotype that women are intrinsically crueler about the looks of other women (something GRRM appears to accept and perpetuates, but more on that later), in my experience, both women and men are equally harsh and cruel about the appearances of others. I'd argue that women in particular come under fire far more for their looks, and critiques of them are generally far more picky and explicit.

However, as to the question of whether men or women are harsher and more critical of the looks of females-- I'd have to say it is pretty much the same, in my experience. The commonly accepted belief that females are generally crueler, bitchier, and more critical of other women while men are generally innocent of such things is, imo, yet another commonly accepted (and all too often unquestioned) belief in our society. I think it comes from both the unfair (but again, commonly accepted) stereotype that all women are petty and jealous and in competition with each other for men; and the unfair double standard the women should be naturally kinder and more accepting than men, so when a woman says something insulting about a woman, it is far more shocking and offensive than a man saying the same thing.

And in these books, I'd say GRRM does perpetuate this as well. In many cases, women who insult and dismiss women on their physical appearances are portrayed as shallow and bitchy, but men who do the same thing are portrayed as acting totally naturally. For instance, Shae makes derogative comments regarding Lolys after the latter's gang rape; however, when tyrion says the same thing, it is presented as hilarious and goes unquestioned. (The author later makes his own cracks about Lolys in the appendixes.) Personally, Most recently, in ADWD, during Cersei’s walk, the queen reflects, “A woman shouted. It was always women who were most cruel when the appearances of other women were concerned.”

Well these books are written by a man, and I must say—they are perhaps more cruel about women’s appearances than any other work of fiction I’ve ever read. Aldous Huxley, too, tended to express queasy disgust for the appearance of ugly and, in particular, aging females as GRRM does here. However, unlike GRRM, he was equally disgusted by both male and female ugliness, and capable of seeing females who were ugly as human beings, and feeling a sort of queasy pity for them when something horrible happened to them. GRRM, for his part, seems unable to feel anything at all for ugly female characters who are not Brienne (who, once again, if she looks anything like the actress GRRM says she “Looks exactly like,” is not the least bit ugly , but actually quite cute, only unusually tall and strong and somewhat unconventionally looking) but disgust and mockery. He treats Lolys like a joke before and after her vicious gang rape.

I never even suggested men are innocent of how we rate women, it is a plain fact of life you or I would not even consider talking to someone unless we are physically attracted to the other person, the real work is after that, do they have a brain, is it always me me me, do their eyes roam etc. and in my example of what happened at my home the women were vicious.

My only statement on Tyrion was, due to the vicious treatment at the hands of Cersei and his father has skewed his idea and treatment of woman.

He's not evil or mean, just a poor dick head making god awful decisions in the personal life department, which was amplified by Jamie's lies to him when they were younger.

[childofsummer]

@ Grail King: I thought one of the points of the scene with the Captain's daugter was to show Theon's disregard for people he considers his inferiors. If the girl had been drop dead gorgeous, he'd have treated her differently (probably)... at least with much less contempt. (side note - the ladies you were watching with should be grateful that they all look like supermodels...right? i feel for the actress - it has to be hard for anyone to play the role of a non-goddess character and then be raked over the coals because she looks like the part she's supposed to play.) As it is, Theon uses the girl to please himself, even when she's not comfortable with what he wants, and then tells her to GTFO. Nice guy.

So... to relate this to Sansa and LF, LF has the same kind of user attitude towards people. Sansa's looks (like Cat) and social status protect her from being sent to a brothel like Jeyne or outright coerced, like the Captan's daughter, but they only go so far. The thing is, Sansa's beauty seems to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, she uses her looks as a defense against Joffrey, albeit a weak one. On the other, if she hadn't looked so much like her pretty mother, Lysa might not have disliked her so, and LF might not have kssed./perved over her.

As Sansa matures, she looks beneath the surface more and more, to the sword under the ribbons, the jealous, hurt girl under the stout, aging body, and so forth. I find it really interesting that she continues this process even as LF is encouraging her to conceal, rationalize, deceive, and misdirect (hair color, sweetsleep, even making the illusion of greenhouse panes). Maybe thiis also foreshadows what kind of queen she will be... instead of relying on whisperers, illusion, pagaentry, and terror, she'll get to the heart of what people are and what they really need, and in so doing, rule by love, not fear.

[Caro99]

Lyanna Stark, I also think that Sansa is meant to rebuild- or at least help- Winterfell. And while I would love it for Bran and Rickon to be there as well, it would be cool to have the sisters re-unite and leave their differences behind to try and bring back to life their home. The thing is, while I hope Arya leaves the FM, I fear that maybe she won’t be as interested in rebuilding Winterfell while the other names on her list are still alive. I fear that when the kindly man told her that they would take her eyes, legs, heart, and soul, this might mean that revenge will be the first thing on Arya’s mind, so maybe Sansa will have to rebuild it for a year on her own- oh sorry, forgot that there might be a new master-at-arms who might be willing to lend her a hand! So hopefully George will make Arya return to Westeros soon.

Childofsummer, I agree with you 100% percent. Sansa’s looks are a double-edged sword. If she had looked like Arya then things might have turned out differently- and LF may never have bothered to take the trouble to save her. Instead of looking for Cat’s younger daughter we see him taking a young girl and making her a whore, only to “sell” her to a monster, while she pretends she is the daughter of Cat… I do wonder though what he would have done if he had Arya? Hopefully he never would have made her go through what poor Jeyne Poole did, but I don’t think she would’ve been in danger of having to go through with his kisses and stuff.

[Silverin]

Because of the chapter that seems to suggest that Sansa will have a role in rebuilding Winterfell and because for some reason I think she will stay as Alayne Stone (some sais she may go back to the fingers etc...) I just thought of something. For rebuilding Winterfell you need money, Jon has debts toward the Iron Bank, and so does Stannis who is helping the Starks. And who has the most in the Realm who possibly could pay the depts and has enough to rebuild a castle? LF.

Now if LF dies, since his oly living relative is a bastard daughter does that mean she could have the money (after all who else would got it? Maybe Harry the Heir will ask Baelish to ask Cersei to legitimise her, since he doesn't want to marry an illegitimate girl :dunno: )? In that case Sansa might could help her family more if she stais as Alayne, since that way she can get the huge amount of money, and with that she can support them (and I think GRRM is trying to show that money is a very important aspect of this story, you can't brush it off).

And I actually think she would be happier if she wouldn't become a central player, no matter how good the Queen title sounds, I would prefer for her a quite simple life.

[brashcandy]

Interesting thoughts, Silverin. I don't see LF dying anytime soon though, and Cersei may not be around much longer. LF's plan is to reveal Alayne as Sansa on her wedding day, thereby securing the support of the Vale. Now obviously this plan is due to fail since we know about it already, and I just cannot see Sansa going along with another arranged marriage. It would not be in keeping with her expressed aversion to such an alliance for her claim again, although of course all this must be measured against how much she wants Winterfell and at what cost.

Anyways, this discussion is better left to AFFC, so let's continue to analyse the chapter at hand everyone.

[childofsummer]

@Silverin: You made me think of an interesting angle. Is any of LF's money real, or has he been living on tick sort of like the Crown when he was Master of Coin? (I'm sure he was embezzling, too, but he also had lots of expenses.) If so, the Iron Bank might be very interested in getting its hands on him.

ETA: oops, sorry for the tangent, brash!

[Maroucia]

Because of the chapter that seems to suggest that Sansa will have a role in rebuilding Winterfell and because for some reason I think she will stay as Alayne Stone (some sais she may go back to the fingers etc...) I just thought of something. For rebuilding Winterfell you need money, Jon has debts toward the Iron Bank, and so does Stannis who is helping the Starks. And who has the most in the Realm who possibly could pay the depts and has enough to rebuild a castle? LF.

Now if LF dies, since his oly living relative is a bastard daughter does that mean she could have the money (after all who else would got it? Maybe Harry the Heir will ask Baelish to ask Cersei to legitimise her, since he doesn't want to marry an illegitimate girl :dunno: )? In that case Sansa might could help her family more if she stais as Alayne, since that way she can get the huge amount of money, and with that she can support them (and I think GRRM is trying to show that money is a very important aspect of this story, you can't brush it off).

And I actually think she would be happier if she wouldn't become a central player, no matter how good the Queen title sounds, I would prefer for her a quite simple life.

If Sansa stays as Alayne Stone and then inherit all of Petyr’s money if he dies, the question would be to know how could she go back to Winterfell and keep Littlefinger’s gold without making her actions look like a fraud?

There are no reasons for Alayne Stone to go live in the North and spend all her fortune on rebuilding a castle that she has no rights on, and is supposed to have never seen.

Anyway, as things are going, Petyr is taking more and more importance in the story, I don’t think he is about to die anytime soon. I could be mistaking though, I haven’t seen either Robb or Joffrey’s death coming, so my opinion on those matters is not really reliable.

There is always strong possibilities for more unexpected surprises to come and change all of our predictions, but what we are witnessing right now is that Littlefinger is slowly grabbing a little more power for himself everyday. Since we got a few glimpses at how cruel and pragmatic he could be (Lysa’s death being a good example of that), I don’t think it’s likely that he’ll be out of the game anytime soon. He might even come to take the part Joffrey had in the first three books as the “Villain” of the story, even though, nothing is that simple in the ASOIAF world.

[Maroucia]

@Silverin: You made me think of an interesting angle. Is any of LF's money real, or has he been living on tick sort of like the Crown when he was Master of Coin? (I'm sure he was embezzling, too, but he also had lots of expenses.) If so, the Iron Bank might be very interested in getting its hands on him.

ETA: oops, sorry for the tangent, brash!

Littlefinger= the Westerosi Conrad Black

[brashcandy]

To be honest, I'm still very intrigued with the Fingers, and that hermit's cave.... I wonder if LF is hiding anything in there.

(Sorry for the random musings, folks) :leaving:

[Maroucia]

To be honest, I'm still very intrigued with the Fingers, and that hermit's cave.... I wonder if LF is hiding anything in there.

(Sorry for the random musings, folks) :leaving:

He might keep all the gold he stole from the realm their, well hidden… :devil:

[Grail King]

@ Grail King: I thought one of the points of the scene with the Captain's daugter was to show Theon's disregard for people he considers his inferiors. If the girl had been drop dead gorgeous, he'd have treated her differently (probably)... at least with much less contempt. (side note - the ladies you were watching with should be grateful that they all look like supermodels...right? i feel for the actress - it has to be hard for anyone to play the role of a non-goddess character and then be raked over the coals because she looks like the part she's supposed to play.) As it is, Theon uses the girl to please himself, even when she's not comfortable with what he wants, and then tells her to GTFO. Nice guy.

So... to relate this to Sansa and LF, LF has the same kind of user attitude towards people. Sansa's looks (like Cat) and social status protect her from being sent to a brothel like Jeyne or outright coerced, like the Captan's daughter, but they only go so far. The thing is, Sansa's beauty seems to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, she uses her looks as a defense against Joffrey, albeit a weak one. On the other, if she hadn't looked so much like her pretty mother, Lysa might not have disliked her so, and LF might not have kssed./perved over her.

As Sansa matures, she looks beneath the surface more and more, to the sword under the ribbons, the jealous, hurt girl under the stout, aging body, and so forth. I find it really interesting that she continues this process even as LF is encouraging her to conceal, rationalize, deceive, and misdirect (hair color, sweetsleep, even making the illusion of greenhouse panes). Maybe thiis also foreshadows what kind of queen she will be... instead of relying on whisperers, illusion, pagaentry, and terror, she'll get to the heart of what people are and what they really need, and in so doing, rule by love, not fear.

It is, and with him it wouldn't change how he treats them, actually if they were drop dead gorgeous he rape them more often.

How do I answer the other? I say half were of average looks the rest I don't know none had model or superstar looks not even the college ladies.

I was just surprised how vicious they were to someone they did not know.

I know my sisters weren't brought up that way or my wife ( since someone above mentioned women are taught to be catty) so is it taught or acquired through life?

[adreamer]

I find it strange that Lysa knows the exact recipe of the moon tea. Whenever it is mentioned in the book it is refereed simply as a moon tea, but here

“I gave you my maiden’s gift. I would have

given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea,

with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and

a drop of permyroyal. It wasn’t me, I never knew, I only

drank what Father gave me…”

Was Lysa using frequently moon tea, not only on that occasion. And why we are told about it - a hint that Robert is indeed LF son? Just wondering.

Also about the Bran vision, it's interesting that Arya and Sansa are surrounded by shadows and Jaime and Sandor (or whoever these two are) are described as shadows. Shadow is not a word used randomly in the series, but is specifically connected with magic and sorcery, right? So why shadows?

[Queen of Winter]

To be honest, I'm still very intrigued with the Fingers, and that hermit's cave.... I wonder if LF is hiding anything in there.

(Sorry for the random musings, folks) :leaving:

I agree, brash. There are too many caves and allgories that involve them! :)

Speaking of such ;) , there is a writing called "The Allegory of the Cave", also known as the Analogy of the Cave, Plato's Cave, or the Parable of the Cave:

This is a summary, I found:

"The Allegory of the Cave is one of Greek philosopher Plato’s most well known works. It is an extended allegory, where humans are depicted as being imprisoned by their bodies and what they perceive by sight only. In the Allegory of the Cave Plato plays with the notion of what would occur if people suddenly encountered the divine light of the sun, and perceived “true” reality. In other words, what would happen if people actually embraced philosophy and become enlightened by it?

In the beginning of the Allegory of the Cave Plato represents man’s condition as being “chained in a cave,” with only a fire behind him. He perceives the world by watching the shadows on the wall. He sits in darkness with the false light of the fire and does not realize that this existence is wrong or lacking. It merely is his existence — he knows no other nor offers any complaint.

Plato next imagines in the Allegory of the Cave what would occur if the chained man were suddenly released from his bondage and let out into the world. Plato describes how some people would immediately be frightened and want to return to the cave and the familiar dark existence. Others would look at the sun and finally see the world as it truly is.

They would know their previous existence was farce, a shadow of truth, and they would come to understand that their lives had been one of deception. A few would embrace the sun, and the true life and have a far better understanding of “truth.” They would also want to return to the cave to free the others in bondage, and would be puzzled by people still in the cave who would not believe the now “enlightened” truth bearer. Many would refuse to acknowledge any truth beyond their current existence in the cave"

Does this mean that some of our characters will need to realize parts of their existence was a "farce" or that they need to face up to the truth of what/how things really are, and not just what they're presented with?

[1234567]

Okay a little bit of crackpotting... in support of the Sansa ends up on the Fingers theory.

I got this idea from something I wrote on another thread.

So the one of the possible reasons why Tyrion and Sansa were married (apart from getting them both out of KL and providing a reason why Sansa is not married off immediately to SR or Harry) is that it makes Robb possibly name Jon as his heir and disinherit Sansa, in a will signed by most of the Lords of the North.

So Sansa has been betrayed by Cersei, the Tyrells, Ser Dontos (in her mind) and Lysa (her last family member as far as she knows) and when and if Robb's will comes to light she will technically have been betrayed by her brother and the North. Her brother did nothing to rescue her while in KL and after everything she has been through, this last renunciation of her identity may make her feel that she was been rejected by her brother and the North as well.

Depending on how this goes she could well remain Alyane and if and when LF bites the dust, she could go off to live on the Fingers.

[Elba the Intoner]

I find it strange that Lysa knows the exact recipe of the moon tea. Whenever it is mentioned in the book it is refereed simply as a moon tea, but here

Was Lysa using frequently moon tea, not only on that occasion. And why we are told about it - a hint that Robert is indeed LF son? Just wondering.

Wow, good catch! Yes I think that's a strong possibility.

[Raksha the Demon]

Intriguing theory, Rapsie. But I hope that Sansa will reclaim, not run away from, her inner Starkness. I would love to see her inherit the Fingers and improve the lives of the Baelish smallfolk; but I don't want her to live out her life on a small spate of rock because she has nowhere else to go, or nowhere else where she can feel safe.

Do we know that Robb did make the will and have it signed and witnessed, rather than just discuss it with Catelyn?

You do bring up excellent points about Sansa having been betrayed by many people she has trusted - I think that every time she trusted someone, with the exception of her father (and even he failed to protect Lady; which probably seemed like a betrayal to Sansa's then childish eyes), she has been betrayed and let down - Cersei, Joffrey, Dontos, the Tyrells, Lysa, Littlefinger, and in theory and possibly actuality, Robb, who she hoped would save her. Everyone except Sandor, and although he never betrayed her, he did leave her.

[1234567]

Intriguing theory, Rapsie. But I hope that Sansa will reclaim, not run away from, her inner Starkness. I would love to see her inherit the Fingers and improve the lives of the Baelish smallfolk; but I don't want her to live out her life on a small spate of rock because she has nowhere else to go, or nowhere else where she can feel safe.

Life on the Fingers would fill the Bittersweet quota, but although it is a possibility there are so several options open to her at the moment in depends of where her character is going.

Do we know that Robb did make the will and have it signed and witnessed, rather than just discuss it with Catelyn?

He did have it signed by all the Lords bar Roose who was elsewhere on his way to the Twins. He sent Maege and one of the Glovers via the Neck Marshes (looking for help from Howland Reed) with the will, but we don't know what it said.

[Queen of Winter]

@ Rapsie-- Yes I think it's a possibility for her to live on the Fingers when it's all said and done. After everything that she's experienced and seen, I feel that she might want nothing to do with "the Game", and live out her life quietly, among the smallfolk or something similar. I

Even Jaime had said at one point: “Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.”

It's one of many ways her story could go.

[Queen of Winter]

I find it strange that Lysa knows the exact recipe of the moon tea. Whenever it is mentioned in the book it is refereed simply as a moon tea, but here. Was Lysa using frequently moon tea, not only on that occasion. And why we are told about it - a hint that Robert is indeed LF son? Just wondering.

It might be "crackpot" but thought that she might be using it to abort any children that Jon Arryn might give her, until she had a child by Petyr (Sweetrobin).

She only said this about Jon in the bechamber though:

Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath.

So we know she had other pregnancies, at least, but I think she aborted them knowingly. Seeing how long LF's plan has been in motion, it wouldn't surprise me.