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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

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Home is where the heart is. :drunk:

And I'm sure Sansa's looking forward to ripping out a few. Whatever happened to Hearteater? She could rename it the Queen's Justice and award it to Brienne as she commands her to prove her love. /carried away.

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I think Sansa could know some happiness if she lived with Sandor (or someone else she loved - not Littlefinger!!!) on the Fingers, even if they could not marry and their children were bastards. But bastards and poor people have been shown to have very little power, for the most part, in Westeros, their lives even more precarious than the nobility. Exceptions are those who gain wealth and rank, such as Littlefinger himself, or Davos Seaworth. What kind of lives would Sansa and her bastard children have, isolated on a poor strip of rock? The children would leave; and if Sandor died middle-aged (which he definitely could, especially if he started drinking again), Sansa would be left alone with a handful of servants/retainers, and quite lonely. Perhaps she would leave too, and return to Winterfell; but by then she might feel alienated and a poor relation in her childhood home.

I just think that a person of Sansa's gifts, the ability to inspire, nurture, charm and exert (when she is older and has learned how to effectively do so) political influence, would be wasted as a hidden householder on the Fingers. Even Tyrion, who has walked among the highest ranks of power, noted that that she was queen material. There are happy medium scenarios between Sansa's horrible time in King's Landing and a life as the common-law wife/mistress of a disgraced former Kingsguard on a barren strip of rock. She could, assuming (which is not unreasonable) that her marriage to Tyrion is annulled or ended through his death, marry Sandor, Harry-the-Heir, somebody who loves her and who she could love, have a life of happiness and some comfort either in the Vale, Riverrun, the North, or somewhere else as the Lady of either a Great House or a minor (but not tiny/decrepit) holding. Sansa could, if she inherits Casa Baelish-on-the-Fingers and has access to wealth and perhaps other holdings, make a nicer place out of the dismal keep, for her own sake and the sake of the Baelish staff/smallfolk. I hope she does. I just don't want her to be limited to that one place, and the marginal life of a mistress with bastards; because most Westerosi men who have mistresses and bastards are not Oberyn Martell (and even he did not treat all the mothers of his children so well, though he acknowledged, provided for, supervised, and seems to have loved, all his daughters).

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*pops in*

Concerning moon tea, I think the recipe was mentioned because to Lysa it kindof represents her son's "murderer". I'm sure any mother would try to remember the face of the man who killed her son, and in Lysa's case, it would be the moon tea ingredients and recipe, as a way of knowing exactly what killed her baby, and remembering it.

*pops out*

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I think Sansa could know some happiness if she lived with Sandor (or someone else she loved - not Littlefinger!!!) on the Fingers, even if they could not marry and their children were bastards. But bastards and poor people have been shown to have very little power, for the most part, in Westeros, their lives even more precarious than the nobility. Exceptions are those who gain wealth and rank, such as Littlefinger himself, or Davos Seaworth. What kind of lives would Sansa and her bastard children have, isolated on a poor strip of rock? The children would leave; and if Sandor died middle-aged (which he definitely could, especially if he started drinking again), Sansa would be left alone with a handful of servants/retainers, and quite lonely. Perhaps she would leave too, and return to Winterfell; but by then she might feel alienated and a poor relation in her childhood home.

I just think that a person of Sansa's gifts, the ability to inspire, nurture, charm and exert (when she is older and has learned how to effectively do so) political influence, would be wasted as a hidden householder on the Fingers. Even Tyrion, who has walked among the highest ranks of power, noted that that she was queen material. There are happy medium scenarios between Sansa's horrible time in King's Landing and a life as the common-law wife/mistress of a disgraced former Kingsguard on a barren strip of rock. She could, assuming (which is not unreasonable) that her marriage to Tyrion is annulled or ended through his death, marry Sandor, Harry-the-Heir, somebody who loves her and who she could love, have a life of happiness and some comfort either in the Vale, Riverrun, the North, or somewhere else as the Lady of either a Great House or a minor (but not tiny/decrepit) holding. Sansa could, if she inherits Casa Baelish-on-the-Fingers and has access to wealth and perhaps other holdings, make a nicer place out of the dismal keep, for her own sake and the sake of the Baelish staff/smallfolk. I hope she does. I just don't want her to be limited to that one place, and the marginal life of a mistress with bastards; because most Westerosi men who have mistresses and bastards are not Oberyn Martell (and even he did not treat all the mothers of his children so well, though he acknowledged, provided for, supervised, and seems to have loved, all his daughters).

THAT!

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Hello folksies, things have been a bit quiet, but hope you're getting ready for AFFC! :) I'll have it up on Monday, and over the weekend Rapsie and I will be posting our final rap-ups of ASOS with summaries of Sansa's development and the foreshadowing throughout that book. Smooches :kiss:

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Sorry for the delay in posting, tried to organize this the best to my ability however, I've had a trying day and my eyes are tired. :(

Could any of this hint at a little foreshadowing? Maybe. Could any of this be crackpot? Certainly!

Now......... if you remember, in the last thread incarnation, I brought up a lot of examples of allegories concerning Sansa's story arc and Greek mythology.

I stated at one point she was paralleled by Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of love and beauty (also brings to mind the "Crowning of the Queen Love & Beauty" @ ASOIAF tourneys, but I digress).

I brought up how Aphrodite had been married, but also had many lovers, for a refresher I'll cut and paste part of what I posted earlier:

.....because of her beauty other gods feared that jealousy would interrupt the peace among them and lead to war, (I'm thinking the War of the Five Kings, though Sansa indirectly had something to do with it) and so Zeus married her to Hephaestus (God of Fire and Craftsmenship, like a metalsmith or blacksmith, I believe--in Roman mythos he is Vulcan, the God of Fire & Smithery).

Hephaestus was lame and is usually depicted with crippled feet and a misshapen, ugly appearance.

In one way or another, you could draw many parallels to all the men that have entered Sansa's story: Tyrion, Willas Tyrell, Harrold Hardyng (a.k.a. Harry the Heir) and Sandor (after all the gravedigger is lame).

Clipped from my earlier post again:

.... another one of Aphrodite's lovers was Ares...

Ares is the God of War, and his symbol is a dog. I don't think that one needs any explaining. ;)

But for those who know their mythology, Greek gods also have their Roman counterparts:

Aphrodite is generally interpreted as Venus who is associated with love, sex, prosperity and beauty, among other things.

She is said to have had a son by Mars, who was Cupid. Cupid is the god of desire, affection and erotic love. Cupid is probably most famous for his story of "Cupid & Psyche" (which is a whole other ball of wax. :wacko: )

Aphrodite's male counterparts in the Roman myths are Vulcan and Mars. Vulcan who I mentioned above, is a blacksmith to the Gods, forging swords and the like for them. It is said:

Vulcan is also the patron of trades related to ovens (cooks, bakers, confectioners) as it is attested in the works of Plautus. In all of the above mentioned stories the god's fertilizing power is related to that of the fire of the house hearth.

Funny that Jaime said Sansa should remain incognito and marry a blacksmith or an inkeep:

“… if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.”

I thought it interesting too, that Jaime used the phrase "never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall". Which if you recall is what Gregor was said to have done to Aegon; Rhaegar & Elia's son during the sack of King's Landing:

Gregor entered the nursery of the infant Prince Aegon, son of Prince Rhaegar, and killed the baby present by dashing the boy's head against a wall.

Anyway, back to mythology....Mars is the God of War, (similar to Ares) as well as an agricultural "guardian". This is what I found comparing Ares and Mars to one another:

The Greek counterpart of Mars is the god Ares who is much more aggressive and anger driven. Peace and agriculture have little to do with Ares, unlike Mars.

As an embodiment of masculine aggression, Mars is the force that drives wars — but ideally, war that delivers a secure peace.

I think this sounds like something that might be going on with our gravedigger. In the past, Sandor was fueled by anger, he wanted to slay his brother and seemed to live only for revenge. Since we assume he's on the QI, could the brothers have some kind of "calming" influence on him? He might still be a swordsman and a fighter, but in a different way or for different reasons. And remember Sansa did pray to the Mother to "gentle the rage in him", as well as sing him the Mother's song.

There is also this little bit about Mars:

The two wild animals most sacred to Mars were the woodpecker and the wolf, which in the natural lore of the Romans were said always to inhabit the same foothills and woodlands. The woodpecker is sacred to Mars because "it is a courageous and spirited bird and has a beak so strong that it can overturn oaks by pecking them until it has reached the inmost part of the tree".

The bird of Mars also guarded a woodland herb (paeonia) used for treatment of the digestive or female reproductive systems; those who sought to harvest it were advised to do so by night, lest the woodpecker jab out their eyes.

(FYI: paeonia means "peony", which in Greek myth is said to soothe women in childbirth, and "Paean", is the name for the Greek physician of the Gods who healed Ares of wounds he received during a battle. I felt the first part curious, considering we've been talking about Moon Tea).

Woodpeckers are said to make nests in cavities, or "holes in the ground". "Holes in the ground" makes me think of caves. I also thought it ironic, that woodpeckers (depending on the species) are usually "little birds". It reminds me of Sandor's pet name for Sansa. ;)

The wolf appears in Roman art and literature in masculine form as the animal of Mars. A statue group that stood along the Appian Way showed Mars in the company of wolves. (Sandor has found himself in the company of wolves --the Stark girls--more than once. Also recall what he said to Arya, about the dead House Piper soldier: "Leave him for the wolves and wild dogs. Your brothers and mine.”)

Mars' association with the wolf is familiar from what may be the most famous of Roman myths, the story of how a she-wolf (lupa) suckled his infant sons when they were exposed by order of their human uncle, who feared that they would take back the kingship he had usurped. A lesser-known part of the story is that the woodpecker also brought nourishment to the twins.

Not sure if it might have any relevance to Sansa's story but, here's a little bit of that myth here:

In the mythic genealogy and founding myths of Rome, Mars was the father of Romulus and Remus with Rhea Silvia. Rhea Silvia was the daughter of a King, her uncle seized her father's throne and forced her to become a Vestal Virgin, a priestess of the goddess Vesta (Goddess of the House and Home).

As Vestal Virgins were sworn to celibacy for a period of thirty years, this would ensure Rhea's line had no heirs. However, Rhea Silvia conceived and gave birth to the twins Romulus and Remus, claiming that the god Mars had discovered her in the forest and seduced her.

When the new King learned of the birth he imprisoned Rhea Silvia and ordered a servant to kill the twins. But the servant showed mercy and set them adrift on the river Tiber, which, overflowing, left the infants in a pool by the bank. There a she-wolf (lupa), who had just lost her own cubs, suckled them.

Back with more thoughts soon....

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QoW!!!!! I love you for putting in all this research and coming up with such GREAT allusions to Sansa's story! :) I know your tired eyes are tired, but I'm finding all this so fascinating.

P.S. The connection between Hound/Sandor and Ares/Mars is mindblowing, and the woodpecker and wolf!!!

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QoW!!!!! I love you for putting in all this research and coming up with such GREAT allusions to Sansa's story! :) I know your tired eyes are tired, but I'm finding all this so fascinating.

P.S. The connection between Hound/Sandor and Ares/Mars is mindblowing, and the woodpecker and wolf!!!

Thank you for your kind words brash! I'm so glad that you've found them an interesting read! :cheers: :blush:

And I've rather enjoyed unraveling and chasing down the myth links. :) (I love the Hound/Sandor, Ares/Mars one too! Not to mention the "little bird" connection.) ;)

Many of the myths are intertwined with others, so one character leads you to another and another, so it can be difficult to try and make some sort of sense of it all. Everything is so multi-layered it's crazy. I have a few other things/myths I want to bring up, but I need to organize my thoughts. I hope to have the post up later today or maybe sometime tomorrow.

Oh and I can't wait to read the wrap up summaries from you and Rapsie! (As well as starting the AFFC chapters).

Thank you so much for starting this fantastic thread! :thumbsup:

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There might also be a link to the book "Holes" by Louis Sachar.

To paraphrase:

At the beginning of the story, a boy who is supposedly affected by a family "curse", has been wrongly accused of stealing. As punishment for this crime, he is sent to a juvenile detention and correctional facility where convicts of similar age are forced to dig holes to "build their character."

Sounds like Sandor (again, assuming he's our gravedigger) digging those graves on the QI, perhaps to "atone" for all the lives he's taken by his sword.

Also, the great-great grandfather of the boy mentioned above had fallen in love with and wanted to marry Myra, the daughter of a wealthy landlord. However, he was unable to compete with a fellow suitor, Igor, who had offered Myra his largest pig. To get help, the boy had gone to his friend, who, despite warning him that the girl he hoped to marry was spoiled and empty-headed, gave him one of her pigs and, and a way to make it grow larger - he had to carry it up a nearby mountain every day and sing a song to it as it drank from the stream there. This is part of the song:

"...I'm a sun but I found myself a plant

there's no use when I'm fighting my history, fighting my history

I have no place I'm a light feather, there's no use when I'm fighting my history,

fighting my history,

I have no place, I'm more like a feather but I can't fly away when I'm fighting myself..."

"...if only if only

the woodpecker sighs

the bark on the trees was as soft as

the sky

as the wolf waits below

hungry and lonely

he cries to the moon

if only if only..."

So part of the book mentions a son who fell in love with woman above his station, and the woman was spoiled and empty-headed. He had to sing a song as a means to an end to impress her. The song mentions the wolf and the woodpecker, as well as a plant again. Allusions to Sandor and Sansa? Maybe. Sansa was somewhat spoiled and her head was "full of songs" and the like.

If the plant that's mentioned in the song is the peony, which I noted in my post yesterday, the peony symbolizes: "riches and honour," as well as "embodies romance and prosperity and are regarded as an omen of good fortune and a happy marriage."

FYI: You can do a search on "If Only" by Fiction Plane to hear the song (I guess a film was made from the book?) as well as see the rest of the song lyrics. The rest of the song is also interesting, but I didn't want to post the whole thing here.

More myths to come later on....

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But in my opinion, Petyr Baelish never truly loved Catelyn Tully; he liked her as a foster-sibling and focussed on her romantically due to his longing for complete social affiliation with this powerful and wealthy Tully family that was raising him (rather than the physically dingy and poor family of House Baelish). And there are huge differences between Carlina, the shy princess-turned-asexual healer in MZB's novel, and the beautiful and romantically hopeful (at the beginning) Sansa. But the trope of a socially inferior man wooing and winning, due to his worth rather than his rank, a beautiful princess, is as old as recorded history. GRRM has subverted that trope quite skillfully, with the undeniably competent power-attaining Petyr Baelish being fixated on a higher-ranked woman who thought of him as a brother, to the point of corrupting her younger sister and then drafting her young daughter into the obsession as a substitute for the mother. Sandor fits the trope too; he is socially well below the Starks on the Westerosi social scale, being the grandson of Lord Lannister's kennel-master; but has proven himself worthy of the beautiful 'princess' Sansa by saving her life and helping her; and he is hopelessly enthralled with her. Neither Littlefinger nor Sandor are, in my opinion, right for Sansa; but Sandor at least has been honest with her at every turn and cares about his 'Little Bird' for herself rather than her likeness to Catelyn Stark or her bloodline/claim to Winterfell.

Also interesting: we learn in ADWD that in AGOT, LF wanted to marry Sansa, but Cersei refused him because of his "Low rank" (she confesses she was thinking for Sansa for Lancel or someone like that at this point.) As we all know, it was at this point (and, I'm assuming, for this reason) that LF talked Joffrey into killing Ned Stark and starting the war between the Starks and the Lannisters

Obviously, he started it because he couldn't have what he wanted (Sansa.) However, it's interesting to think of this as yet another instance of revenge for LF, who has once again been told he's "too low" for the beautiful, highborn female he desires... What Cersei thinks here (that LF is far too lowborn to end up married to Sansa) is very close to what he was told all those years earlier with Sansa....

. Personally, I wonder why Jaime is spilling his guts to Payne about the affair with Cersei, etc.; the guy could still communicate it to others, or reply with a nod if asked specific questions. And maybe he's learned to write, too. I would suspect that he is loyal to the Lannisters; if I remember correctly, they made him the royal executioner; and that's a pretty good post for a maimed, mute man.

I think Jaime's confiding the secrets of his and Cersei's treason and Myrcella and Tommen's parentage to a guy whom he does not know he can trust and whom, he's thought himself, has an "ugly soul" can be seen to, from a certain perspective, illustrate how callous Jaime has grown not only with his own life, but with that of Cersei and his children as well. Having lost his idealized image of Cersei, he is now having a mentality that he "has nothing to lose." This is fine, I guess, however, the issue comes in when he disguises his desire to get back at Cersei and destroy her as a newfound urge for honesty. For instance, in ADWD, he reflects on Myrcella and wishes he could tell her.

Because, you know, it's not surprising or suspect at all that Jaime is just now, some days after finding out his sister/ lover has cheated on him and deciding that as a result, he will leave her to die, he suddenly decides for the need for honesty with the children he's ignored all his life. Just now, he's decided it is essiential for his daughter's mental health that he inform her that she is, in fact, not Robert Baratheon's daughter, but a bastard abomination born of incest. I'm sure revealing this information would be wonderful for both Myrcella's personal well being and mental health. And that Jaime's sudden, totally random desire for total honesty with his child has nothing to do with getting back at the sister he's just learned cheated on him and formed a vengeful vendetta against.

Okay then, Jaime. :rolleyes:

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These are great Queen of Winter. Keep em coming! It's been a while since I studied any Greek/Roman mythology but there's definitely some interesting parallels there. Do people think GRRM had some of these myths in mind when he framed his story? Does anyone know if he's ever said anything about this? Just curious but I do have a tendency of wondering about the symbolism that authors intend in their story or if it's just coincidence. (It harkens back to all those times in my high school English classes when the teachers always insisted that daggers/anything long and pointy must be a phallic symbol, but why couldn't it just have been a dagger :cool4: ?) In all seriousness though, I do think most good authors do plan what symbols they use and I do think Sandor's use of the dagger he holds to Sansa's throat in the BBB scene was intentional as a symbol of the rape threat he posed.

Speaking of author's intentions, I do have another question regarding a point that Queen Cersei made a few posts back that GRRM identifies the most with Tyrion. I hope it's okay to bring this up here as I don't want to derail the thread, but since it was brought up here I hope it's okay to comment on it. While I have heard that GRRM said that Tyrion is his favorite character, to me that is not necessarily the same as the one he most identifies with. It's clear that he does enjoy writing Tyrion's character and he has ridiculous plot armor, but when I was reading the books I found myself thinking that the character that GRRM identifies with, in the sense of the character that seems most like him as if he placed himself as a character in the books, is Samwell, a chubby, nerdy guy with a good heart who like to read. Maybe it just comes down to one's definition of identifying with a character but that was just my feeling anyway.

Finally, along the lines of what Queen of Winter has been posting, has anyone seen the movie "Mirror Mirror" yet? I took my kids and niece to see it last week during their spring breaks and while I knew there would be some parallels to Sansa's story, as it is a snow white fairy tale after all, I couldn't help thinking the whole movie about all the similarities and some just screamed ASOIF. For instance, the evil queen, step mother figure to Snow White, it turns out is really just afraid of a younger, more beautiful queen coming along to take it all away from her. There's also a scene where the queen tells her henchman/chief guard/valet or whatever you want to call him, that he needs to go out and collect more taxes from the villagers and if they complain that they don't have anything left to give use the usual lines - bread is cake, blah blah blah. This sets up a scene much like in ACOK that lead the commoners of Kings Landing to riot, though since this is a comedy meant for kids that doesn't happen in this version.

Then since it's Snow White there are dwarfs of course, another obvious parallel. But, the dwarfs don't have the names they have in the Disney cartoon version and in fact have rather different names. It turns out one of the Dwarfs is named Wolf and he goes around howling every so often! That nearly made me laugh out loud. Another parallel is that the dwarfs tell Snow White that they used to live in the village but were cast away for being ugly and that no one liked them. Now, you are all probably thinking that of course there will be parallels as this is a fairy tale after all and Sansa's story is a subversion of the fairy tale trope so none of this is a big reveal. I would agree except here's the kicker. In the end it turns out Snow White's father was not killed and he comes back to her and the actor who plays her father, the king, is none other than Sean Bean!! Maybe a lot of you knew this already but I had no idea he would be in it and as Snow White's father no less. It made me laugh out loud so hard that my kids and niece just looked at me like "You are one weird lady".

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@ Queen Cersei I

You know part of Jaime wanting to tell Tommen and Myrcella the truth makes me think (all with a vast number of other hints) that he may well be one of the first deaths of TWOW. Ned had a very similar thought about how when she is grown up, he will tell Sansa that it was her that made him join the dots about Cersei and Jaime and the incest.

Also sorry about the foreshadowing not being up. I got distracted by real life survivor stories of forced marriage and it is bloody heart breaking and anger inducing at the same time. The effect on women of forced or coerced marriage, marital rape and forced abortion are just horrific.

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Also interesting: we learn in ADWD that in AGOT, LF wanted to marry Sansa, but Cersei refused him because of his "Low rank" (she confesses she was thinking for Sansa for Lancel or someone like that at this point.) As we all know, it was at this point (and, I'm assuming, for this reason) that LF talked Joffrey into killing Ned Stark and starting the war between the Starks and the Lannisters

Wow, did I miss something? :eek:

I didn’t know it was Littlefinger who talked Joffrey into chopping Ned’s head off!

Where is it written?

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Obviously, he started it because he couldn't have what he wanted (Sansa.)

QC are you sure you mean Sansa? I'm thinking you meant to say Catelyn? *wonders* Being denied Catelyn's hand when LF was younger probably fueled his desire for revenge against her family.

These are great Queen of Winter. Keep em coming!

Thanks, Elba! If they get tiresome I can stop putting them up. :)

It's been a while since I studied any Greek/Roman mythology but there's definitely some interesting parallels there. Do people think GRRM had some of these myths in mind when he framed his story? Does anyone know if he's ever said anything about this?

I don't know if he said anything about the parallels, but I'm convinced he planned them. There's just too many coincidences for it to be a random occurrence. ;)

Finally, along the lines of what Queen of Winter has been posting, has anyone seen the movie "Mirror Mirror" yet? Then since it's Snow White there are dwarfs of course, another obvious parallel. It made me laugh out loud so hard that my kids and niece just looked at me like "You are one weird lady".

:laugh: I haven't seen the film but I heard that Sean Bean was in it. I'm guessing you gave it a :thumbsup:

The one thing about Fairy Tales is that they weren't originally written for kids, and were much darker and "adult". :o

Wow, did I miss something?

I didn’t know it was Littlefinger who talked Joffrey into chopping Ned’s head off!

Where is it written?

I don't think it's expressly said in words, but something that happened behind the scenes. But if I'm wrong, please correct me!

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Excuse the digression, but the plot, and the protagonist, of MZB's Two To Conquer, did remind me a little of Littlefinger's Catelyn obsession. Except that LF prefers seduction over rape; and thinks of himself as a great seducer; and he is more skillfully written than MZB's anti-hero. But in my opinion, Petyr Baelish never truly loved Catelyn Tully; he liked her as a foster-sibling and focussed on her romantically due to his longing for complete social affiliation with this powerful and wealthy Tully family that was raising him (rather than the physically dingy and poor family of House Baelish). And there are huge differences between Carlina, the shy princess-turned-asexual healer in MZB's novel, and the beautiful and romantically hopeful (at the beginning) Sansa. But the trope of a socially inferior man wooing and winning, due to his worth rather than his rank, a beautiful princess, is as old as recorded history. GRRM has subverted that trope quite skillfully, with the undeniably competent power-attaining Petyr Baelish being fixated on a higher-ranked woman who thought of him as a brother, to the point of corrupting her younger sister and then drafting her young daughter into the obsession as a substitute for the mother. Sandor fits the trope too; he is socially well below the Starks on the Westerosi social scale, being the grandson of Lord Lannister's kennel-master; but has proven himself worthy of the beautiful 'princess' Sansa by saving her life and helping her; and he is hopelessly enthralled with her. Neither Littlefinger nor Sandor are, in my opinion, right for Sansa; but Sandor at least has been honest with her at every turn and cares about his 'Little Bird' for herself rather than her likeness to Catelyn Stark or her bloodline/claim to Winterfell.


Yes, I agree with the Cat thing... I have some similar thoughts about LF and his feelings for Cat (and Sansa) below...

Brashcandy said:

LF might want to make Sansa a political player, but undoubtedly he desires to keep her as a sexual pawn, living out the dreams that he was denied with Catelyn.

I think this is a factor, but I also think a huge (and seldom recognized) issue in LF’s feelings for Sansa is her as a status symbol—and revenge against all those (including Catelyn) who have ever wronged or looked down upon him (in his mind). Sansa as vengeance against Catelyn, Hoster Tully, the Tully’s, and all others who looked down upon him, denied he was good enough for them because of his comparatively low birth. Now he is getting Sansa, the gorgeous Cat clone, secretly daughter of one the people who laughed at, rejected, and denied him all those years.

I think LF’s feelings for Sansa can be compared (In a way) to Tyrion’s feelings for Shae. In earlier books, part of the reason Tyrion gets off so much on “owning” Shae is that she is a beautiful, witty, desirable young girl who is, he thinks, “all his.” This, in his mind, along with his triumphing as Hand to the King allows him to say “Up yours” to all his former enemies, who (Tyrion feels in his own insecure, unablananced mind) laughed at him and mocked him behind his back his whole life. For instance;

Tyrion stood in the door and drank in the sight of her. Younger than Marei, sweeter than Dancy, more beautiful than Alayaya, she’s all I need and more…It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it... me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it...

Eighteen, Tyrion thought. Eighteen, and a whore, but quick of wit, nimble as a cat between the sheets, with large dark eyes and fine black hair and a sweet, soft, hungry little mouth… and mine!”

IMO, these thoughts of triumphant ownership of Shae in my mind may well mirror LF’s glorying in his own “getting” Sansa. Tyrion is proud and thrilled that, after years of being looked down on, he’s gotten a “top” girl (i.e., young and gorgeous and desirable.)

Similarly, LF’s “possession” of Sansa no doubt gives him a little sexual thrill, and for more than just his obvious lust for her. Here he gets to possess Cat Tully’s daughter, one of the greatest prizes in Westeros, not just for her “sweet” body and gorgeous face, but her claim on Winterfell, and noble birth.

I think his hatred of Cat is almost as great a factor in his interactions with Sansa as his “love” of her. In some scenes we see LF as the sentimental would be lover; in others the political player; in others the would be lech/ seducer. However, I think in a way he wants to make Sansa “his” in a way that goes even deeper than sex. He wants to make her morally his, make her see things from his POV, be his protégé.

IMO, his “only Cat” should be seriously held up for question. It would not surprise me if he loathed Cat far, far more than he cared for her. Or, at least, by the time he meets her as an adult, I think it is mostly left over humiliation and bitterness he feels for her, not remaining love (as some have speculated, and as we see on the TV show.) I think he wants Sansa sort of to replace the love he’s lost—however, more so, I think he want’s her as a prize—as a gorgeous, highborn, well off prize; just the girl he couldn’t get and was mocked and shunned for even trying for all those years ago. Similarly, I think he wants revenge at Catelyn, who chose Brandon over him, who never went to visit him as he lay possibly dying. Remember, LF wanted to marry Sansa from the beginning, as we learn from Cersei in ADWD.

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@ Queen of Winter

Hephaestus (God of Fire and Craftsmenship, like a metalsmith or blacksmith, I believe--in Roman mythos he is Vulcan, the God of Fire & Smithery).

Hephaestus was lame and is usually depicted with crippled feet and a misshapen, ugly appearance.

Vulcan is also the patron of trades related to ovens (cooks, bakers, confectioners) as it is attested in the works of Plautus. In all of the above mentioned stories the god's fertilizing power is related to that of the fire of the house hearth.

This seems to tie in better to Arya than Sansa, except for ugly and crippled part this would be Gendry more than anyone.

The only way I see this involving Sansa is if the BWoB and Lady Stoneheart some how rescues or comes in contact with Sansa, than there is some type of chemistry where they hit it off at which point they may have a couple of paths to walk, one being Gendry reforges ICE, Stannis acknowleges him as his nephew and from that House Barathion and House Stark are one as Robert wanted, hence South and North are united as one by marriage.

Two: they hit it off but decide to stay away from politics and live simple lives ( Sansa is Ned with curves) but I don't think so.

Three: they hit it off as friends someone she can trust they goto Winterfell where she becomes Lady of Winterfell he stays on as their new smithy and Sansa begins rebuilding Winterfell.

Four: Arya gets pissed and shows Sansa the pointy end :frown5:

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Wow, did I miss something? :eek:

I didn’t know it was Littlefinger who talked Joffrey into chopping Ned’s head off!

Where is it written?

It's not expressly written as Queen of Winter noted, but there are hints to it here and there. Brash had mentioned something about this earlier on in this thread, maybe it was in volume 2 or 3, and I remember being shocked as I did not pick up on it, but it totally makes sense. I remember seeing a post more recently by Lyanna Stark in a different thread which gave some quotes that hinted at this, but I can't remember which one now.

From Queen Cersei's post above -

"Also interesting: we learn in ADWD that in AGOT, LF wanted to marry Sansa, but Cersei refused him because of his "Low rank" (she confesses she was thinking for Sansa for Lancel or someone like that at this point.) As we all know, it was at this point (and, I'm assuming, for this reason) that LF talked Joffrey into killing Ned Stark and starting the war between the Starks and the Lannisters"

I actually think LF was planning Ned's death from a much earlier point than this, like, from the start. For example, knowing what I know now about LF, I am also convinced that he set up the confrontation between Ned and Jaime that killed Jory when Ned was leaving the brothel with his men. Think about it. Ned had just had a huge fight with Robert over killing Dany and quit as hand and was planning on getting out of town as soon as he could. Who should come along as Ned is packing and ask Ned if he'd like to see the last person Jon Arryn met with before he died? LF of course. He knew Ned couldn't refuse that offer. I am convinced now that LF let it leak around the Red Keep or in front of some Lannister men that he was taking Ned there hoping that Jaime would act rashly, as he usually does, and confront Ned in the hopes of killing him. And remember how LF ran off so quickly when Jaime showed up supposedly to bring help? Yeah, right. LF couldn't have Ned leaving Kings Landing before his plan for revenge was completed.

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It's not expressly written as Queen of Winter noted, but there are hints to it here and there. Brash had mentioned something about this earlier on in this thread, maybe it was in volume 2 or 3, and I remember being shocked as I did not pick up on it, but it totally makes sense. I remember seeing a post more recently by Lyanna Stark in a different thread which gave some quotes that hinted at this, but I can't remember which one now.

From Queen Cersei's post above -

"Also interesting: we learn in ADWD that in AGOT, LF wanted to marry Sansa, but Cersei refused him because of his "Low rank" (she confesses she was thinking for Sansa for Lancel or someone like that at this point.) As we all know, it was at this point (and, I'm assuming, for this reason) that LF talked Joffrey into killing Ned Stark and starting the war between the Starks and the Lannisters"

I actually think LF was planning Ned's death from a much earlier point than this, like, from the start. For example, knowing what I know now about LF, I am also convinced that he set up the confrontation between Ned and Jaime that killed Jory when Ned was leaving the brothel with his men. Think about it. Ned had just had a huge fight with Robert over killing Dany and quit as hand and was planning on getting out of town as soon as he could. Who should come along as Ned is packing and ask Ned if he'd like to see the last person Jon Arryn met with before he died? LF of course. He knew Ned couldn't refuse that offer. I am convinced now that LF let it leak around the Red Keep or in front of some Lannister men that he was taking Ned there hoping that Jaime would act rashly, as he usually does, and confront Ned in the hopes of killing him. And remember how LF ran off so quickly when Jaime showed up supposedly to bring help? Yeah, right. LF couldn't have Ned leaving Kings Landing before his plan for revenge was completed.

I also sometimes wonder if LF didn't construct the whole scene with Sansa so he could rule in his own right and wouldn't have to deal with Lysa and her inconvienient sexual needs anymore.

Lysa was, at this point, rather useless. Furthermore, despite the wildness of LF's passion for Sansa, is it a sure thing that LF, mr. Planner, got so caught up in the moment that he simply had to kiss Sansa in front of numerous people? Who could so so easily tell his lady wife? In a place where Lysa herself may well notice? Was he really so carried away by passion that he forgot his whole act? Perhaps his kissing Sansa was meant to cause Lysa's jealousy, and kick off the events that went down; but LF simply did not anticipate how truly batshit Lysa would end up acting, and that she would reveal the her complicity in the poisoning of Jon Arryn, and that she would pose such a direct threat to Sansa.

LF hates the Tully's and seemed to nurse a pretty sadistic hatred towards Lysa in particular, perhaps because she was the instrument of him getting kicked out of the Tully's and because he realizes on some level she might be able to disillusion him about Cat and her maidenhead. Plus he had to suck up to her all those years...

Perhaps kissing Sansa was merely meant to be a stab in the heart for Lysa. Perhaps Petyr was planning on offing her all along, anticipating her confronting him, threatening him with divorce, and then him killing Lysa but not before breaking her heart. Unfortunately, LF did not realize how truly out of touch with reality and cooky and mentally unbalance the years and all the miscarriages had rendered Lysa.

Just a thought. :dunno:

I've always gotten the feeling as though GRRM accedes that Lysa is far, far better gotton rid of. The way it is presented, if feels as though the readers are supposed to cheer on LF's murder of Lysa. And countless people have confessed to doing so; I've even heard his "awesome" murder of Lysa listed as a reason why one should not hate LF.

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(snipped for space)

Perhaps kissing Sansa was merely meant to be a stab in the heart for Lysa. Perhaps Petyr was planning on offing her all along, anticipating her confronting him, threatening him with divorce, and then him killing Lysa but not before breaking her heart. Unfortunately, LF did not realize how truly out of touch with reality and cooky and mentally unbalance the years and all the miscarriages had rendered Lysa.

:agree: I think you're onto him here, Queen Cersei. Given his history and manipulative tendencies, I would have been shocked if LF had actually allowed Lysa to live for very long after she gave him his Lord Protectorship. Poor, deranged Lysa - signing her own death warrant. Not that my pity for her in any way excuses her trying to murder her niece, of course, but I do think LF's callous usage and disposal of her was revolting.

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I've always gotten the feeling as though GRRM accedes that Lysa is far, far better gotton rid of. The way it is presented, if feels as though the readers are supposed to cheer on LF's murder of Lysa. And countless people have confessed to doing so; I've even heard his "awesome" murder of Lysa listed as a reason why one should not hate LF.

Although I have to admit that I was relieved when Lysa was killed (she tried to push my poor Sansa down the moon door! :bawl: ), I don’t think this scene was meant to make us feel like Littlefinger done a good thing… I was totally creeped out by him when he did it…

I was like:” what? He’s THAT vicious?? And now Sansa is ALONE with him??” :ack:

Lysa was not a friendly figure to Sansa, but at least she was a barrier between creepy-Petyr and the Little Bird… :frown5:

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