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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa VI

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I think LF’s feelings for Sansa can be compared (In a way) to Tyrion’s feelings for Shae. In earlier books, part of the reason Tyrion gets off so much on “owning” Shae is that she is a beautiful, witty, desirable young girl who is, he thinks, “all his.” This, in his mind, along with his triumphing as Hand to the King allows him to say “Up yours” to all his former enemies, who (Tyrion feels in his own insecure, unablananced mind) laughed at him and mocked him behind his back his whole life. For instance;

Tyrion stood in the door and drank in the sight of her. Younger than Marei, sweeter than Dancy, more beautiful than Alayaya, she’s all I need and more…It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it... me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it...

I just had a really unpleasant vision of Littlefinger secretly opening Sansa’s door at night while she sleeps and leering at her in the creepiest way …

And then he would tell himself the same bullshit then Tyrion did:

“Younger then Catelyn, prettier then her, more vulnerable and completely at my mercy…”

THAT IS GROOS!!!! :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack:

I hope it never happened and never will!!!

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I just don't want to see Sansa relegated to a humble life in House Baelish on the Fingers while Arya or Jon is Regent of Winterfell for Rickon. I can understand why Sansa wants and needs to stay off the radar now, to be safe; but I doubt that Cersei will be around forever, or that Sansa Stark will remain accused of Joffrey's murder forever. I especially don't want Sansa stuck in obscurity because Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns framed her for that murder. Sansa deserves warmth, company, and children when she grows up; hopefully the world, or some parts of it, will be safer for her in the future.

the idea of Jon and Arya (the people with the two most boring a-political arcs so far) as Rickon's regents, just makes me want to pull my hair out.

I think whilst Sansa has learnt from Lysa and Cersei, that power and status are not the goal of marriage and life, this does not mean that she should remain Alayne Stone at Casa Baelish with Sandor.

Since whilst Cersei and Lysa may have imparted those lessons to her as women, Sansa is more than just a woman, she is also a potential political player:

If she wasn't what would be the point of putting Sansa in the company of players like Tyrion, and Baelish if her ultimate goal wasnt to be a political player? All of the lessons she learnt from them (Tyrion/the Lannisters: keep your mouth shut and don't be cruel) and Baelish (manage an economy and don't be petty) would be pointless if Sansa wasn't going to apply those lessons to further the interest of house Stark, and the interests of House Stark go much further than slaying Petyr Baelish. Frankly what the North (and the interests of the Starks, as its liege lords must always coincide with the interests of the North) needs more than anything is rule of law, good economic management, with a politician canny enough to defend and attack its enemies. This means that Sansa has duty not to run off to Casa Baelish with Sandor...

I would also say that being the Lady of Casa Baelish wouldn't be all that great (since in Westeros, if you have no power you have no rights and no money). So being stuck at the Fingers wouldn't be a happy ending for Sansa, since whilst the Fingers are huge move up for a Braavosi sellsword, they're a huge step down for Lord Starks daughter.

This also raises the question of "Why should Sansa step down?" she hasn't murdered anybody (and even if Sansa goes down in history as the woman who poisoned Joffrey, the name 'Baratheon" is only going to last until Aegon becomes king, which means that killing Joffrey will not be considered a crime). Or committed any sin that she should spend the rest of her life on some miserable keep in smallest Finger. I think Sansa is just as entitled to live openly as a Stark, sister to the King of the North/Lord of Winterfell, as she is entitled to her good looks and intellect (both inherited traits).

I think the reason many people advocate this path, is that they want Sansa to avoid falling into the trap that Cersei and Lysa were in (married to men they loathed), and marry Sandor.

Now I also want Sansa to marry Sandor, but that doesn't mean that I want Sansa to step down to Sandor's level. That would be ridiculous: we don't want Sansa to have her face burnt (so she's as ugly as Sandor), drink so much that she too becomes emotionally incontinent (as Sandor is in AGOT, ACOK and ASOS), lose her education (which would've been focused entirely on the duties of Great-Ladyship) so that she too views power in terms of "they're all meat and I am the butcher", and her morals so that she, like Sandor would follow an order to murder a child. So why should I want Sansa to lose her inherited status? Indeed just as I expect that Sandor must become a better person, stop drinking, and hopefully gain some sort of formal education (all of which he is able to do at the Westerosi equivalent of a Cistercian monastery) to be worthy of her love. I would also expect that Sandor must gain some sort of status (if not a whole castle, but atleast a military victory/slay Un-Gregor to further Sansa's cause) to be worthy of her hand in marriage (if only for entirely practical reasons, that it will help others accept the marriage).

Basically it's better for the poor to get rich, the sinful to repent, and for the stupid to learn than it is for the rich to become poor, the good to sin, and the educated to become foolish....

Yes, I agree with the Cat thing... I have some similar thoughts about LF and his feelings for Cat (and Sansa) below...

Brashcandy said:

I think this is a factor, but I also think a huge (and seldom recognized) issue in LF’s feelings for Sansa is her as a status symbol—and revenge against all those (including Catelyn) who have ever wronged or looked down upon him (in his mind). Sansa as vengeance against Catelyn, Hoster Tully, the Tully’s, and all others who looked down upon him, denied he was good enough for them because of his comparatively low birth. Now he is getting Sansa, the gorgeous Cat clone, secretly daughter of one the people who laughed at, rejected, and denied him all those years.

I think LF’s feelings for Sansa can be compared (In a way) to Tyrion’s feelings for Shae. In earlier books, part of the reason Tyrion gets off so much on “owning” Shae is that she is a beautiful, witty, desirable young girl who is, he thinks, “all his.” This, in his mind, along with his triumphing as Hand to the King allows him to say “Up yours” to all his former enemies, who (Tyrion feels in his own insecure, unablananced mind) laughed at him and mocked him behind his back his whole life. For instance;

Tyrion stood in the door and drank in the sight of her. Younger than Marei, sweeter than Dancy, more beautiful than Alayaya, she’s all I need and more…It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it... me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it...

Eighteen, Tyrion thought. Eighteen, and a whore, but quick of wit, nimble as a cat between the sheets, with large dark eyes and fine black hair and a sweet, soft, hungry little mouth… and mine!”

IMO, these thoughts of triumphant ownership of Shae in my mind may well mirror LF’s glorying in his own “getting” Sansa. Tyrion is proud and thrilled that, after years of being looked down on, he’s gotten a “top” girl (i.e., young and gorgeous and desirable.)

Similarly, LF’s “possession” of Sansa no doubt gives him a little sexual thrill, and for more than just his obvious lust for her. Here he gets to possess Cat Tully’s daughter, one of the greatest prizes in Westeros, not just for her “sweet” body and gorgeous face, but her claim on Winterfell, and noble birth.

I think his hatred of Cat is almost as great a factor in his interactions with Sansa as his “love” of her. In some scenes we see LF as the sentimental would be lover; in others the political player; in others the would be lech/ seducer. However, I think in a way he wants to make Sansa “his” in a way that goes even deeper than sex. He wants to make her morally his, make her see things from his POV, be his protégé.

IMO, his “only Cat” should be seriously held up for question. It would not surprise me if he loathed Cat far, far more than he cared for her. Or, at least, by the time he meets her as an adult, I think it is mostly left over humiliation and bitterness he feels for her, not remaining love (as some have speculated, and as we see on the TV show.) I think he wants Sansa sort of to replace the love he’s lost—however, more so, I think he want’s her as a prize—as a gorgeous, highborn, well off prize; just the girl he couldn’t get and was mocked and shunned for even trying for all those years ago. Similarly, I think he wants revenge at Catelyn, who chose Brandon over him, who never went to visit him as he lay possibly dying. Remember, LF wanted to marry Sansa from the beginning, as we learn from Cersei in ADWD.

You know how every character is basically on a plot (Slaying the Monster, Rags to Riches, Quest, Voyage and Return, Comedy, Tragedy and Rebirth) but in many ways those plots are the same plot told from the perspective of different characters (best example is Slaying the Monster and Tragedy with the latter being from the monster's perspective) but in many ways all subversions end up being tragedy... after all isn't the monster the hero of his own story and the hero is the monster that the monster-hero must slay? I think from the perspective of the monster, being monstrous is heroic, but because from the perspective of most people, being monstrous is not heroic, but is well monstrous, and monsters should be slain (for the betterment of all non-monsters). I would also say that all monsters are basically stupid, so not only should they be slain, but for this reason they will be slain...

Many love interests are apparently on some sort of rebirth plot, with the love interests in the voyage and return being on the tragedy plot... Interestingly Sandor is probably on a Tragedy or Rebirth plot (Tragedy if like King Lear his repentence occurred too late and is insufficient, Rebirth is his repentence is sufficient and timely) and Tyrion is probably on the tragedy plot (since he started off good and became increasingly evil) I would say Sansa is on a voyage and return with elements of slay the monster, with the return being a 'quest'. I would say that Baelish is one of the monsters that Sansa must slay.

Which raises the question what plot is Baelish on?

I think it's safe to say that Baelish is on a rags to riches plot. But unlike the heroes of these stories, Baelish does not genuinely want to better himself (or atleast he only wants to benefit himself in terms of power/status rather than morality, ie he is not aiming at genuine maturity) but rather wants vengence on the people who supposedly wronged him (by refusing his suite which basically puts Baelish on the same level as an acid thrower, ie the values that Baelish represents are pettiness, cruelty and destruction, rather than broadmindedness, kindness and creation/preservation).

So in his quest for power he acts unethically/with irrational cruelty, which makes his very existence a threat to non-monsters (Sansa and the rest of Westeros). But because like most monsters, he is essentially stupid (since it is smarter to create, forgive minor insults/be broadminded and be kind to people), but in order to dehumanise people who exhibit traits like creation/preservation, forgiveness and kindness he must view such traits as stupid, which causes him to underestimate people who exhibit these traits.

But because he is still human he is still needs people who are creative/want to preserve society, kind and forgiving (because people who are petty, cruel and destructive are just as dangerous to monsters as they are to normals, this is why most predators are loners, and Gregor and Ramsay the least human of GRRM's monsters are complete loners).

For instance, a common trope in Rags To Riches, is marrying the false mate, which is the false ending. Now in Petyr's opinion, he has just overcome his false mate (the woman he married just for status) in the person of Lysa, and indeed for a hero Lysa would indeed be a false mate (since no man would be happy married to a crazy, jealous woman with a history of miscarriages), and is about to obtain his true mate (Sansa, who from the perspective of the hero, would be the perfect wife, since she is forgiving, kind and well suited for the role as creator of new life and nurturer). But because Baelish's values/goals (destruction of aristocratic society, petty vengence on Stark-Tullys, cruelty to those who are not useful) are so inimical to Sansa's values/goals (preservation of aristocratic society, forgiveness of minor wrongs, kindness to the defenceless), she cannot be his true mate. Indeed in terms of suitability, Catelyn was his first false mate (since she desired to marry aristocratic Brandon, was kind to Baelish even though he was worthless to her, and forgave Baelish when he embarrassed her in public), whilst Lysa was his true mate (since she too desired the destruction of the Tullly-Starks, was cruel to defenceless Sansa all of this because she couldn't forgive Catelyn for being more loved than she was). Yet because Baelish cannot see this (ie he suffers from the false belief that he is a hero, not a monster) he doesn't recognise Lysa as his true mate, yet at the same time he has the intellect to recognise that Lysa is a threat to him (because her pettiness causes her to betray him and yell out his plotting to poison Jon Arryn/frame Lannisters) and his goals (since her jealousy and cruelty causes her to try and kill Sansa, whom he perceives as his true mate), he therefore kills Lysa, his true mate. He is now alone with Sansa, whom he falsely believes is his true mate, but actually holds values and goals completely inimical to his own. If Baelish were a hero, then Sansa would be his monster, and he would be alone with the monster. Yet becaus Baelish is the monster, he has the monsters tendency to dehumanise people who exhibit traits like kindness, forgiveness and creativity and preservation (here symbolised by Sansa's love of songs in which heroes destroy monsters). Thus Baelish confides in Sansa and trains her to be his mate, whilst believing Sansa to be so stupid that she will never figure out that his values and goals are inimical to hers (ie that he has destroyed her family, cruelly sold her best friend to a brothel all because Hoster Tully refused his suite when he was 15 and he, Petyr Baelish, is a petty little man), thus Sansa, who in the literature of previous, more mysoginistic yet more stupid eras, would have been stuck in the love interest/damsel in distress role (and Tyrion, Sandor, Harry the Heir or Aegon would have heroically swept in and slain Baelish and rescued Sansa), is forced to become a heroine, rather than remain a love interest.

and how will Sansa rise from love interest to heroine? Well I think one of the distinguishing features of love-interests and damsels in distress is that they are basically saintly: they forgive everyone and everything, are cruel to nobody and are cruel about nothing and they want to preserve every single life.

But if saints have but one flaw, and that is that they cannot seem to distinguish creation from destruction.... A truly saintly person would not lie even to save their own lives, would not have children (because that takes away resources from others) would not make money (because that takes away money from others), would not go to university (because that takes away the opurtunity to gain knowledge from others), would not wear beautiful clothes (because that makes other women look bad), they would sleep with everybody who asked them (because it would hurt people's feelings if they were refused sex), they would not eat because that would deprive another of food...they would be dead, and therefore wouldn't be much of a love interest, which is why no love interest is truly ever saintly (since the hero could hardly have a wife who doesn't want kids and yet sleeps with everybody, including the villain), which is to say even the most shallow love interest/damsel in distress imaginable needs to have some sense of her own value. To me the thinking of saints and monsters is not all that different, since both view goodness as being completely alruistic (ie self destructive and therefore stupid), it's just that saints chose to be completely good whilst monsters chose to be self-preserving and therefore avoid becoming what they think of as stupid. I would also say that monsters need saints, since monsters, being completely destructive, need to feed off saints to survive.

Needless to say Sansa gives many indications that she isn't all that saintly, but what characteristics will she need to go from love interest and damsel in distress to heroine? I think the distinguishing feature of the hero is his ability to make distinctions: he is kind to the defenceless but cruel to the wicked, he forgives people who give minor/unintentional insults, but pursues justice for those who commit genuine wrongs, since to deliver justice is to be kind to the defenceless and cruel to the wicked, in order to do this (ie commit the ultimately act of cruelty to the monster, and be kind to the defenceless he must kill the monster). The hero must persevere (atleast in simplistic or less realistic works of fiction, or even in cases where the villain is not very complex, like Gregor or Ramsay) but he must also show creativity (especially in more realistic fiction, and against more complex villains, like Baelish or Cersei).

It goes without saying that throughout ACOK and ASOS Sansa has shown immense perserverence, and in ACOK and ASOS but going back to AGOT Sansa has shown some creativity.

I would say that the aristocratic upbring that Sansa received probably makes Sansa far more willing to deliver cruelty to the wicked than a modern woman (since so many modern women are against the death penalty) whilst this aristocratic upbring would also give Sansa an inflated sense of duty and kindness towards the defenceless (most modern women aren't royalty). Indeed Sansa has demonstrated both characteristics in the past: her saving of Dontos (rescuing the defenceless) kindness to Sandor (when he was at his most vulnerable-she was quite severe to him when he was being rude), whilst her destruction of SweetRobin's doll, refusal to kneel for Tyrion and desire to push Joffrey off a ledge show her willingness to inflict cruelty upon the wicked. Thus to bring about justice, Sansa needs to the information to help her realise that Baelish is wicked, and thus a worthy recipient for a cruel death. From there all she needs is a little bit of creativity to bring about Baelish's cruel death/justice.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSevenBasicPlots

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RagsToRoyalty

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RagsToRiches

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComingOfAgeStory

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@GK--I can see why you might think it relates to Arya. But I certainly don't think that Sansa will end up with Gendry. She's definitely meant for someone else! ;)

As for Arya,her story arc is totally different. I think that Gendry will be revealed as Robert's son, and that he and Arya will meet again. I'm not sure what kind of relationship they might have though.

And I know this is OT, I couldn't help sneaking it in. I'll remove it if the mods want: Arya reminds me of a mix of Greek myths, one being Nemesis as the spirit of divine retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods). The Greeks personified vengeful fate as a remorseless goddess: the goddess of revenge. The name Nemesis is related to the Greek word meaning "to give what is due" .

Recall how she recites a list of people she wants to kill before going to sleep each night and wanting to avenge her family?

The other is Artemis; Homer refers to her as Artemis Agrotera, Potnia Theron: "Artemis of the wildland, Mistress of Animals". This part I thought interesting:

A poem of Callimachus to the goddess "who amuses herself on mountains with archery" imagines some charming vignettes: according to Callimachus, at three years old, Artemis, while sitting on the knee of her father, Zeus, asked him to grant her six wishes: to remain always a virgin; to have many names to set her apart from her brother Apollo; to be the Phaesporia or Light Bringer; to have a bow and arrow and a knee-length tunic so that she could hunt; ......All of her companions remained virgins, and Artemis closely guarded her own chastity.

Her symbols included the golden bow and arrow, the hunting dog, the stag, and the moon. Callimachus tells] how Artemis spent her girlhood seeking out the things that she would need to be a huntress...

What is up with that "lightbringer" thing.....Hmmmmm! Arya was a tomboy. And when traveling she dressed as a boy (guarding her chastity.) One of her symbols is the stag....(House Baratheon) hinting a a future relationship with Gendry? Who knows!

Artemis' Roman counterpart is Diana, goddess of the hunt and moon and birthing, being associated with wild animals and woodland, and having the power to talk to and control animals. Think of Arya's connection with Nymeria and her pack....

Edited for spelling mistakes! Eeek!

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Well, once Petyr finished using Lysa to further his own game, she was toast. To be honest, I think he was rather disgusted with her (and by her). He obviously found her lacking when he compared her to Catelyn.

Regarding Petyr kissing Sansa, I don't feel it was planned. I think he had one of those "slips" (similar to what Lysa was doing, thinking Sansa was Catelyn). I don't know if it will happen, but I can see later on in the story Petyr going off the deep end, confusing Sansa with Catelyn. Perhaps it won't be exactly how it was with Lysa, but I believe it might happen.

However that kiss might be part of Petyr's undoing, and a mistake on his part. It will be interesting to see if that kiss comes up again later, in some way. You can't tell me that one of the servants didn't see it and set tongues to wagging. It might get them talking, wondering if this Alayne is really LF's daughter.

I actually think LF was planning Ned's death from a much earlier point than this, like, from the start.

Yes, I agree! :agree: I think LF's plans were years in the making actually, that one way or another he would take his revenge against the people who denied him the things he most wanted. He definitely had it in for the Stark's and the Tully's from the start, then added Jon Arryn into the mix.

would also expect that Sandor must gain some sort of status (if not a whole castle, but atleast a military victory/slay Un-Gregor to further Sansa's cause) to be worthy of her hand in marriage (if only for entirely practical reasons, that it will help others accept the marriage).

Well, if UnGregor winds up being killed at some point, there are the Clegane lands, and their keep in the Westerlands. Not sure if Sandor will want it, as it probably holds bad memories for him and he hasn't been back there since he left home at 12 y/o. But like you said, he might do something "in battle" that might earn him a reward and "elevate" him to a higher social level. I think some of how Sandor ends up, depends on what happens regarding Rorge and Biter masquerading as him, committing atrocities along the Saltpans, wearing his infamous dog helm. (Side note--Wonder if he'll get the helm back, or decide to melt it down or something and construct a new one, to better match his "new lease on life". ;) ) Is Sandor going to be held responsible for their actions? Who will speak on his behalf, in his defense? The Elder Brother? And Sandor had the gold from the Hand's Tourney , however that was taken from him by Dondarrion. (He was given an IOU for it but gave it to the riverboat captain as payment for crossing the river, saying he'd be back for his "change" later :laugh: ).

Edited to add: You know, I was also thinking that if Robbs Will comes to light, and it's known that Sansa was disinherited, she's may not be "worth" all that much to any of her former suitors who wanted her only for her claim. Other men might desire her because she's pretty, and yes, she comes from a noble family, but that family has been branded traitors, she was accused of regicide, etc.(Though I do expect her to be cleared for that --or I hope!). Yes, I know LF wants her for his twisted plans. :stillsick: But in the end I think the only person she might have real worth to would be Sandor. So, if she essentially has nothing (no lands, etc) at the end, perhaps he might not need to have tons of land or money to be worthy of her. :dunno:

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I personally DO think Sansa should stay Alayne Stone and live on the Fingers or somewhere....maybe with Sandor....

but unlike many views, I don't see this as a permanent course of action for her but rather as a....for the moment...thing.

As in....stay out of sight until the Lannisters get their arses kicked for good, the wars are over and it is "safe" for Sansa ro re-emerge and THEN claim her place in Winterfell.

As of right now, she can't be queen as Bran and Rickon are fully alive and come before her in regards to Winterfell. The whole Robb and Jon thing is still up in the air as well. But it doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

A couple of years though.....could definitely be prudent.

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Queen Cersei, you brought up some excellent points regarding what may be happening inside LF’s mind. I agree that he hates the Tullys and now the Starks, and he wants Sansa for her claim and to revenge himself on Cat’s father, the other Tullys, and even Cersei and Brandon Stark. It is a little sad to think that he’s come to hate so much “the thing” the Tullys represent when as a young boy the thought of one day belonging to them was what motivated him. He lost his child’s beliefs and illusions and became twisted in his Machiavellian mind, and black of soul & heart in a way. So, he hates the Tullys and must despise that he ever had illusions about them. But this shows another difference he has with Sansa. She still finds joy in remembering her past and the illusions she was brought up to love for the first years of her life. So hopefully she won’t give in easily to LF’s ways and decides to remain all of her life as she has been so far: kind to others, honest, innocent, forgiving, compassionate… Someone mentioned how she is Ned with curves in a way, and I agree. So funny that maybe LF fell for Cat cause of some of her personality traits- traits that Sansa may not have cause she takes after her dad. A man LF didn’t like one bit of course. I think that before he dies he is going to see the true Sansa, and not his mind’s version of Sansa, and even if just for a moment, he will be able to see what a good should and heart she has, making it ironic that the things he mocked Ned for only make his daughter a better person…

And I don’t want Jaime to die in TWOF L while I’m sure he will die towards the end of the sorry, he still has some unfinished business to attend to which can’t fit in one book. But well, who knows…

QoW, wonderful Greek-Sansa analysis! I liked the bit where you mentioned about Jaime saying Sansa will hopefully not fear one day knights will come to dash all of her families heads on the wall, and how it matches to what Gregor did to Rhaegar’s kids cause maybe she won’t have to fear it in the future cause Sandor finished off his brother.

I do wonder about this though..? Now that Sandor is at the QI trying to atone for his sins- once he hears about Ungregor his first thought will be to go and kill him once and for all. But will killing his brother be better for Sandor’s character grow? It would set him free in a way to do it himself. But it may also not be the greatest thing for him to kill his brother now..?

And when you mentioned Sandor and the paper thing he left with the ferryman about his gold- how funny it would be to have him return there one day for the money.

Elba the Intoner, I hadn’t thought about it but now that you’ve said that it was probably LF’s fault that Jaime attacked Ned after leaving the brothel, I wonder how I couldn’t see it before! I’m sure you’re right here. I’m sure it comes naturally for LF, but how tiresome to live day after day planning every single move you make and what the consequences of them will be..! & about Mirror Mirror, I haven’t watched it yet, but I knew Sean Bean was in it. I saw some pics of Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams going to the London premiere, and I wish they took a photo with him and Lily Collins. It would be cute.

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Mmmmh, I think Sansa should go back to Winterfell and reunite with Arya and her brothers, specially considering that the last book was originally titled "A Time for Wolves", so I really think the Stark children will come back in full power and have their revenge, or at least rebuild Winterfell and regain control of the north. But I also think a future with Sandor is possible if he, as Voodooqueen126 mentioned, proves himself in battle and becomes some kind of "war hero", worthy of Sansa's hand (but in a twisted, non fairy-tale way, because this is GRRM we're talking about xD). Besides, if the Others attack, I think it will all become a matter of survival, something like Westerosi humans against evil wights, and I don't think social status, birth and that kind of stuff will be that important anymore.

Even though there are many characters in the A Song of Ice and Fire series, I really think the Stark children are the protagonists of this story, because they have lost everything and while everyone else is having "a good time" playing the game of thrones, they're being trained to become important players to turn the tables in their favor: Bran as a great greenseer, Arya as a powerful assassin, Sansa as a political mastermind, and I see Rickon becoming the missing Stark Lord everyone will want to fight for. I don't know about Jon, though, because right now he's a great candidate for the Night King Dx . So I'm really hoping for all of them to play an important, surprising part in the story, and to achieve success they really need to be together as one strong wolf pack, so Sansa needs to leave the Fingers to reunite with her siblings as soon as her "training" is complete (hopefully, after killing LF xD).

I would really like it if, in The Winds of Winter, we get to see a huge battle agains the Others, and Westeros almost destroyed by this battle and internal betrayal between the major houses. And then, in A Dream of Spring, we see Westeros being rebuilt, perhaps with the aid of the Children of the Forest... who knows, maybe there won't even be an Iron Throne anymore... and in this scenario (or a similar post-battle one), Sansa can use all her political knowledge to protect the interests of House Stark, making allies and rebuilding Winterfell with the remaining Stark children. And I think she would be free to choose whoever man she wanted to marry, and it would be indeed a good idea to chose a strong, faithful, honest and brave husband who can stand by her side in this time of new beginnings, a man most people would fear and who can protect her... and I know someone who can play the part perfectly :P

Just my thoughts...

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Just a quick thought about Sandor killing Un-Gregor... what if he goes there to kill him not as an act of revenge, but to finish the monster that walks around in his brother's body, kindof like freeing his brother's soul from sorcery? I don't expect Sandor to love his brother after being in the QI, but perhaps some of Elder Brother's teachings and prayers will reach his soul, and when he hears about Un-Gregor he will realize that it really isn't his brother, but a work of dark magic, and that not even his cruel brother deserves to end up like that? This way Sandor can fight Un-Gregor without falling again into the whole revenge and anger feelings, but really as a warrior of the Faith giving some kind of "gift of mercy" to his brother's tortured soul... that would certainly show some character growth in Sandor. Also, didn't Tyrion say something like "once a little brother, you will always be a little brother"? (I don't remember the exact quote). I think Sandor can kills his "brother" as one last act of family interaction, if it makes any sense, like saying "I hate you, you were horrible to me, but you're still my brother, so I won't let them capture your soul and do whatever they want with you"...

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QoW, wonderful Greek-Sansa analysis! I liked the bit where you mentioned about Jaime saying Sansa will hopefully not fear one day knights will come to dash all of her families heads on the wall, and how it matches to what Gregor did to Rhaegar’s kids cause maybe she won’t have to fear it in the future cause Sandor finished off his brother. I do wonder about this though..? Now that Sandor is at the QI trying to atone for his sins- once he hears about Ungregor his first thought will be to go and kill him once and for all. But will killing his brother be better for Sandor’s character grow? It would set him free in a way to do it himself. But it may also not be the greatest thing for him to kill his brother now..?

Thank you Caro! I'm happy you enjoyed that post. :)

IMHO I don't think that Sandor's first thought will be to track down UnGregor and slay him. I believe that his whole stint on the QI is about him learning to "let go" of his hate (so to speak), to change the rage felt into something more positive. He needs to channel his energies into something other than killing his brother, he needs a more worthwhile purpose. Do I think he and UnGregor will meet? Yes, but not immediately. And not exactly sure how though.

And when you mentioned Sandor and the paper thing he left with the ferryman about his gold- how funny it would be to have him return there one day for the money.

I don't think Sandor expects to ever collect that money! :lol:

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It's not expressly written as Queen of Winter noted, but there are hints to it here and there. Brash had mentioned something about this earlier on in this thread, maybe it was in volume 2 or 3, and I remember being shocked as I did not pick up on it, but it totally makes sense. I remember seeing a post more recently by Lyanna Stark in a different thread which gave some quotes that hinted at this, but I can't remember which one now.

From Queen Cersei's post above -

"Also interesting: we learn in ADWD that in AGOT, LF wanted to marry Sansa, but Cersei refused him because of his "Low rank" (she confesses she was thinking for Sansa for Lancel or someone like that at this point.) As we all know, it was at this point (and, I'm assuming, for this reason) that LF talked Joffrey into killing Ned Stark and starting the war between the Starks and the Lannisters"

I actually think LF was planning Ned's death from a much earlier point than this, like, from the start. For example, knowing what I know now about LF, I am also convinced that he set up the confrontation between Ned and Jaime that killed Jory when Ned was leaving the brothel with his men. Think about it. Ned had just had a huge fight with Robert over killing Dany and quit as hand and was planning on getting out of town as soon as he could. Who should come along as Ned is packing and ask Ned if he'd like to see the last person Jon Arryn met with before he died? LF of course. He knew Ned couldn't refuse that offer. I am convinced now that LF let it leak around the Red Keep or in front of some Lannister men that he was taking Ned there hoping that Jaime would act rashly, as he usually does, and confront Ned in the hopes of killing him. And remember how LF ran off so quickly when Jaime showed up supposedly to bring help? Yeah, right. LF couldn't have Ned leaving Kings Landing before his plan for revenge was completed.

Since before he convinced Lysa to off her husband I say since he had words for the letter planned out, etc.

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OK my crackpot based in part on season1 show: Eddard is knelt down preparing himself for death he is praying, Sansa is furiously screaming stop, stop the Axe comes down and at that moment, Sansa passes out the spirit of Ned enters Sansa's body and he lives through her, and she brings back the house of Stark, when / if Ned's bones makes it back to the crypts his spirit leaves Sansa to rest leaving her stronger and connected to the North and Winterfell.

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I also sometimes wonder if LF didn't construct the whole scene with Sansa so he could rule in his own right and wouldn't have to deal with Lysa and her inconvienient sexual needs anymore.

Lysa was, at this point, rather useless. Furthermore, despite the wildness of LF's passion for Sansa, is it a sure thing that LF, mr. Planner, got so caught up in the moment that he simply had to kiss Sansa in front of numerous people? Who could so so easily tell his lady wife? In a place where Lysa herself may well notice? Was he really so carried away by passion that he forgot his whole act? Perhaps his kissing Sansa was meant to cause Lysa's jealousy, and kick off the events that went down; but LF simply did not anticipate how truly batshit Lysa would end up acting, and that she would reveal the her complicity in the poisoning of Jon Arryn, and that she would pose such a direct threat to Sansa.

LF hates the Tully's and seemed to nurse a pretty sadistic hatred towards Lysa in particular, perhaps because she was the instrument of him getting kicked out of the Tully's and because he realizes on some level she might be able to disillusion him about Cat and her maidenhead. Plus he had to suck up to her all those years...

Perhaps kissing Sansa was merely meant to be a stab in the heart for Lysa. Perhaps Petyr was planning on offing her all along, anticipating her confronting him, threatening him with divorce, and then him killing Lysa but not before breaking her heart. Unfortunately, LF did not realize how truly out of touch with reality and cooky and mentally unbalance the years and all the miscarriages had rendered Lysa.

I hope it's okay if I respond to this! I've been reading these threads for a while and re-reading Sansa's chapters, and I love reading all of your insights! I finally caught up and just wanted to say a few things about my personal take on Petyr's motivations/actions in this chapter.

I don't think the kiss or Lysa's death were premeditated by Petyr. Actually, I think it could be rather important to the story that it was a spontaneous (and stupid) action. In my opinion, Petyr had every reason to want to keep Lysa alive for a few more years, she certainly was not useless to him yet. Robert is the lord of the Vale and since Lysa is his mother, the Vale lords probably weren't going to challenge her rule despite disliking Petyr. However, with Lysa gone, Petyr finds himself in a precarious position as a stepfather with a mostly hollow title that Lysa granted him, meaning he's actually going to have a difficult time ruling his own right despite having it relatively easy with Lysa alive. As soon as Lysa dies, the Lords Declarant start pushing for a change in leadership, something Petyr would have no doubt anticipated. More time with Lysa alive would have given him more time to make friends in the Vale, prove his worth as a leader by helping the Vale thrive, and possibly take steps to ensure Sansa's widowhood before trying to win Harry for her.

As for his disgust for Lysa--yes, it was certainly there, but hardly something he couldn't have handled for a few more years, I think. The man toadies to people he despises all the time to maintain his grasp on power and has been dealing with Lysa for years. It seems strange to me that when he finally gets the power he desires through her, he would suddenly not being able to stand her any more and off her before cementing his control over the Vale.

Additionally, I would not be surprised if he hoped for an heir by Lysa. With the Tullys in disarray, Lysa's son or daughter could potentially have a claim to Riverrun (though a number of people would have to die first, and Sansa would have to make a different claim as she'd come first), which would strengthen Petyr's currently tenuous grasp on the Riverlands. I hate talking about a child in such a cold way, but Petyr is cold man and could view the child as a backup plan. It could also potentially make him head of the household that he grew to despise because of their perceived betrayal against him.

Overall, Petyr is presented as a calculated, rational man except in this moment with Sansa, which I think is important. The kiss is the first time we really see him slip up (except for maybe asking Cersei for Sansa's hand, which could have given away part of his motive to her). Kissing Sansa in the open like that is a stupid move--Lysa could have (and did) see it and plenty of servants could have seen it, which could come back to haunt him if someone like the Mad Mouse overhears some rumors later. And the way I read that scene is that he was overcome by the way Sansa looked in the snow and couldn't help himself (as icky as that is).

Anyways, my overall point is that I think this chapter is a good bit of foreshadowing that Sansa will end up being Petyr's downfall, as his foolish actions with her force him to remove Lysa from the game earlier than he wanted and weakened his influence in the Vale, though he manages to mostly correct this later. It is really the first time we see him make a poor move that compromises his plans, and it's because of his feelings for Sansa. If he continues down this road, Sansa might be the blind spot that eventually causes his fatal error, especially if she figures out the effect she has on him (which I believe she has started to do). It also cements that he thrives in unexpected chaos, reinforcing that he is a formidable opponent. So I prefer to think the events in this chapter weren't orchestrated.

Just some thoughts! I have a lot theories on LF's motivations throughout the series, but at the risk of derailing your great thread, I'll leave it there. :)

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(Side note--Wonder if he'll get the helm back, or decide to melt it down or something and construct a new one, to better match his "new lease on life".

;)

Myself, I hope we'll get the chance to see Sandor wearing that beautiful helmet again… I love it! :wub:

Just a quick thought about Sandor killing Un-Gregor... what if he goes there to kill him not as an act of revenge, but to finish the monster that walks around in his brother's body, kindof like freeing his brother's soul from sorcery?

I like your idea, but truly, I would think the ones that would mostly need to be freed are the poor people of Westeros from un-Gregor, not the guy himself, who, I really don’t think deserves any pity… I may be less forgiving then the elder brother though…

I have to admit not wanting to see my Houndy become all merciful and devout; that would kill his great persona :frown5: … He has to keep at least a small part of his rage…

I was also wondering about how well known the real identity of ser Robert Strong is going to become, because as kin slaying is considered one of the worst crime in the Westerosi culture, I’m not sure if Sandor would be the right person to eliminate his brother.

I could see Jaime killing un-Gregor though, with Sandor’s help of course, but the actual killing would be Jaime’s work, so there would be no kin slaying accusations possible.

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Myself, I hope we'll get the chance to see Sandor wearing that beautiful helmet again… I love it! :wub:

I liked the helm too (it's pretty cool, right? :thumbsup: ), but if the Hound part of Sandor is dead, he might need something else to take it's place! ;)

I have to admit not wanting to see my Houndy becoming all merciful and devout, that would kill his great persona :frown5: … He has to keep at least a small part of his rage…

Well, I don't think Sandor will go all pious/religious/devout (never!), but I think the rage in him will be tempered. He'll still be a swordsman and have his rusty chivalry, and Stranger(!) :P

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I just finished reading the series and am so happy to have found this thread dedicated to my favorite character! I've skimmed a lot of the posts so far.

I agree with a lot of what Lady Kraken said about Little Finger, but I have to admit he really remains a complete mystery to me.

Anyways, there's something I haven't seen stated explicitly yet: In this chapter it is revealed that Lysa *raped* Petyr. I wonder how much of his worldview is influenced by that. I suspect that patriarchal Westerosi generally don't see men as victims of sexual assault by women. It sounds like Lysa's father actually wanted to *punish* LF.

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I liked the helm too (it's pretty cool, right? :thumbsup: ), but if the Hound part of Sandor is dead, he might need something else to take it's place! ;)

A direwolf, maybe? :rolleyes:

I didn't mean that Sandor would become a pious man, but I think you don't have to be specially religious to realize that there's something very wrong in using someone's dead body to create a monstruous undead warrior D: And, technically, Gregor Clegane is dead, so I don't think it will be considered kinslaying if Sandor "kills" Robert Strong. I also don't think it will be that easy to kill, and Jaime might well play a part (if we take Bran's dream in AGOT into account).

Now, concerning Littlefinger, I really think Sansa is going to be his downfall, because the man is way too obsessed with Catelyn and full of feelings of revenge against everybody who ever did him wrong, so even though he is a clever man, these elements are going to be out of control thanks to Sansa's presence: he's going to make some mistakes and then Sansa's going to find out about his role in Ned's death... and then I really hope the she-wolf in her will wke up and she kills the pervert xD

(A little bit out of topic: if Dany ever arrives at Westeros with her dragons, I think it's really too "convenient" that Sandor fears fire above all... if he ever faces a dragon, it would be a nightmare for him, but then I remember Ned's word about a man only being brave when he is afraid :o Any thoughts about that? )

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So many fascinating posts, so little time...

About Littlefinger's plans with Lysa and Sansa:

I think Littlefinger worked for a number of years, or at least some time, to get Lysa to the point of killing her husband. Of course, there's also a possibility that he worked for a number of years to get Lysa not to kill her husband but to wait for an opportune time to do the deed. Lysa might well have been entertaining the idea of killing Jon Arryn from the time little Robert was a sickly baby; especially once Littlefinger came to King's Landing - Lysa would have wanted to have Jon dead so she could marry 'her' Petyr ASAP and have his babies. LF worked the timing very nicely - when Jon was thinking about sending little Robert away from his mother for fostering, the letter blaming the Lannisters sent to Catelyn after Jon's demise.

I think LF must have had it in mind to marry Lysa when the time was right, and get a child on her, a child that would have a tentative claim on Riverrun - he was, after all, sowing a Stark/Lannister war with Lysa's help. That way, LF would have had potential claims of protectorship on the Vale and the Riverlands, fingers in two pies, as it were.

I doubt that LF knew that Catelyn Tully's older daughter was very like her mother. Sansa, I think, was a game-changing revelation to LF, or at least one that modified the game. He shifted plans to make Sansa, rather than Lysa, his primary pawn; not only did, I believe, LF have a strong and sudden emotional attraction to Cat's daughter, but Sansa's extreme youth would give him time to build the scenario he wanted, the right chessboard for her to enter as the most prized player in his game. Sansa was not only very like Cat on the outside; but a child of hers would have a better claim than a child of Lysa's to Riverrun if Edmure Tully died. (and I think Edmure Tully's death was part of LF's plan too). LF arranged things so that he could marry Lysa, put himself in position to become Lord Protector of the Vale if she was removed from the Vale, and the obvious guardian of Lysa's very vulnerable only child. By killing Lysa, he removed the threat to not only Sansa, but himself, of Lysa's revealing their secrets, the truth of Jon Arryn's murder. And now LF is holding the very young Lord of the Vale in one hand, and Catelyn Tully's oldest (as far as is known) surviving child, who could inherit Riverrun if Edmure and his unborn child, who have been conveniently removed from lordship of Riverrun, die, in the other hand, not to mention Winterfell. And if the Lannisters fall, Emmon Frey will probably not be able to stand in Littlefinger's way; so even if he loses his comfy perch in the Eyrie as Lord Protector, Littlefinger can marry Sansa and eventually claim Riverrun in her name. So Littlefinger has a definite claim to the Eyrie for the next 10 years or until SweetRobin expires, and potential claims to Winterfell and Riverrun via Sansa.

Of course, he's going to be surprised when/if Rickon shows up. :cool4:

Littlefinger's kissing Sansa near the snowy little Winterfell replica seems to me to have been an impulsive act, not pre-meditated in an attempt to rile Lysa. It would have been much too dangerous for Littlefinger to risk Sansa's carefully crafted alias, an alias of his making, when she is wanted for king-slaying; and the circumstances were too random for Littlefinger to have engineered - the cold, the snow, Sansa deciding to stay outdoors and build a snow castle, Lysa looking out the window at the right time. Littlefinger does not need servants or men-at-arms gossiping about the Lady's husband kissing his bastard daughter in a way that didn't look fatherly.

I do think Littlefinger has a revenge fantasy that probably included the Tullys, or at least Edmure and Hoster Tully; possibly Catelyn as well. His feelings for her would probably be a mixture of frustrated obsessive love and anger; since Cat rejected young Petyr after he'd been badly wounded for her sake (in his own mind; since she didn't exactly ask or encourage him to risk his life in a duel with such ridiculously poor odds) - another reason why Sansa would have seemed so alluring to Littlefinger; to him she would have been a blank slate he could write on, the perfect revision of his aborted romance with her mother, a beautiful young version of Cat who would need him as Cat never did, who he could teach and seduce at his leisure. :ack:

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@ Raksha

:agree: Littlefinger is totally trying to fulfill one of those creepy Pygmalion fantasies some men have… :ack:

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Nothing t oadd for the moment but I jsut wanted to tell that this thread is a fascinating read and great analysis of the character of Sansa in so many aspects. I have to re-read parts of the book to contribute in a style which this thread deserves.

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Ugghhh you guys, so many long posts, so much interesting reading :) My write up is a bit late, sorry. It will be posted shortly.

And I thought this necessary to clarify: when I consider the possibility that Sansa may end up on the Fingers it's not because I'm imagining it as some idyllic love nest she can share with Sandor. Well, yes, it may be that too :) but seriously, I think there is genuine foreshadowing that this could be where she comes to live. In my heart I would love Sansa to be a Queen, not because it's suitable to her "status" or the kind of lifestyle she's been accustomed to as a daughter of Winterfell, but because she'd be a damned good one. And there's plenty foreshadowing for that too. I just wanted to speak to this, because I feel like there's been a misunderstanding where some believe that the Fingers theory is being proposed as a way to get Sansa and Sandor together at all costs, and that it's "bringing down" Sansa and ignoring her potential. Not at all. I think Sansa could be equally happy and fulfilled as a Queen or as a lowly heiress of the Fingers. It all depends on whether she has the power to choose what she wants, and whether or not she's able to establish her own values and principles in whichever setting and role she chooses.

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