[Book Spoilers] Melisandre's seduction of King Stannis

[Lord Varys]

I don't see the problem here. It is already confirmed that Stannis Baratheon likes sex. ADwD did so, in that one tidbit in the Melisandre chapter. They enjoy each other, in fact. Stannis was not attracted to Selyse, that much is true, and he is uncomfortable around women (especially around atypical women like Asha and Alysane Mormont), but this does not mean that he has no sexual desires, or does not like having sex with women. Considering the fact that he is depicted as straight guy, we have to assume his sexual desires involve women. We don't not what Stannis likes/dislikes when having sex, and considering the vague picture of the joy a man might have when having sex with Melisandre, we can't be sure, but as of yet does not consider Stannis a bad (or weird) lover.

Stannis is definitely attracted towards Mel. And he always was. But I very much doubt that he started to sleep with her because she promised him a son. Nor would he have follow his own desires and humiliate/betray Selyse with no good reason. Stannis has no intention of becoming another version of Robert, who was made look like fool due to his sexual appetites (and the blind eye he turned towards his wife).

Despite the appearances, Melisandre never controlled Stannis. This is also confirmed in ADwD. All he ever did was heed her counsel. Mel never controlled or shaped Stannis desires (i.e. his ambition/determination to seize the Iron Throne of Westeros), but he let her have her way from time to time.

Considering Stannis's personality I can't imagine that 'I give you a son' could motivate him to forget himself and fuck her then and there on the table. This would have afforded something more, say, the Iron Throne, or Renly's men. This scene would have been really powerful indeed if Mel had promised Stannis to give him an army in exchange for his semen. This would have been rather irritating and weird to the audience, but, well, the riddle would be resolved soon enough. I'm not so sure that Stannis will be happy when he learns/realizes that his 'son' kills Renly and disappears into thin air. That's not the kind of 'son' Stannis had in mind...

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't see the problem here. It is already confirmed that Stannis Baratheon likes sex. ADwD did so, in that one tidbit in the Melisandre chapter. They enjoy each other, in fact. Stannis was not attracted to Selyse, that much is true, and he is uncomfortable around women (especially around atypical women like Asha and Alysane Mormont), but this does not mean that he has no sexual desires, or does not like having sex with women. Considering the fact that he is depicted as straight guy, we have to assume his sexual desires involve women. We don't not what Stannis likes/dislikes when having sex, and considering the vague picture of the joy a man might have when having sex with Melisandre, we can't be sure, but as of yet does not consider Stannis a bad (or weird) lover.

Stannis is definitely attracted towards Mel. And he always was. But I very much doubt that he started to sleep with her because she promised him a son. Nor would he have follow his own desires and humiliate/betray Selyse with no good reason. Stannis has no intention of becoming another version of Robert, who was made look like fool due to his sexual appetites (and the blind eye he turned towards his wife).

Despite the appearances, Melisandre never controlled Stannis. This is also confirmed in ADwD. All he ever did was heed her counsel. Mel never controlled or shaped Stannis desires (i.e. his ambition/determination to seize the Iron Throne of Westeros), but he let her have her way from time to time.

Considering Stannis's personality I can't imagine that 'I give you a son' could motivate him to forget himself and fuck her then and there on the table. This would have afforded something more, say, the Iron Throne, or Renly's men. This scene would have been really powerful indeed if Mel had promised Stannis to give him an army in exchange for his semen. This would have been rather irritating and weird to the audience, but, well, the riddle would be resolved soon enough. I'm not so sure that Stannis will be happy when he learns/realizes that his 'son' kills Renly and disappears into thin air. That's not the kind of 'son' Stannis had in mind...

How do we know what is inside of his his head? How do we know Mel hasn't "seen" what is in his heart. We also cannot forget that he is a raging hypocrite

burning his starving men for eating dead bodies, when he was about to do the same thing, if not for Davos.

I do not doubt that he take her there on the table and still behave as self-righteous as he does. He does what he wants to do.

[Iron Captain]

I agree with what many of you have already said. I think if she promised him the iron throne, or at the very least Renly's army by having sex (or some other means to fulfulling his duty of taking the iron throne) then I could maybe seeing Stannis sleeping with her, regardless of it meant breaking his vow to his wife because he would in a way be doing his 'duty'. But sleeping with her for a son is just self-serving motive and doesn't fit Stannis at all.

[Stannis is the Mannis]

Cynical, no. Logical, yes. There isn't straight a man alive ,other than on tv, movies and romance novels, who is going to turn away an attractive naked woman begging him for sex. Especially a repressed, self-righteous and self-serving character like Stannis; and a king no less. Stannis is man, and NO human being has that much will. GRRM doesn't write unbelievable characters. If you can beleive that a woman gives birth to a shadow and dead people can live and talk, you can believe that Stannis gives into lust for Mel. He disguises it to the outside world as being dutiful, but I refuse to believe it until GRRM writes it.

The fact that you believe this is truly astounding. You believing that men are helpless to their sexuality and can't resist temptation through morality, duty, responsibility, or other motivations is ridiculous. It's no wonder that you project this line of thinking into characters in the book when you think that's how men actually are in real life.

Nothing in the books implies this repressed, lustful persona you seem to have come up with for Stannis. The same Stannis who wants to outlaw brothels (but I suppose you'll twist this into his hypocritical attempt at covering up his filthy desires). Again, being that we don't see the scene and are only left to wonder about it, I infer the interaction based on what I know about both characters from actual dialog and scenes, whereas you infer your version based on an incredibly cynical and misguided belief that men are helpless to sexual desires. To each their own.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

The fact that you believe this is truly astounding. You believing that men are helpless to their sexuality and can't resist temptation through morality, duty, responsibility, or other motivations is ridiculous. It's no wonder that you project this line of thinking into characters in the book when you think that's how men actually are in real life.

Nothing in the books implies this repressed, lustful persona you seem to have come up with for Stannis. The same Stannis who wants to outlaw brothels (but I suppose you'll twist this into his hypocritical attempt at covering up his filthy desires). Again, being that we don't see the scene and are only left to wonder about it, I infer the interaction based on what I know about both characters from actual dialog and scenes, whereas you infer your version based on an incredibly cynical and misguided belief that men are helpless to sexual desires. To each their own.

You're leaving out the incredible hypocrite part.

[Stannis is the Mannis]

You're leaving out the incredible hypocrite part.

I would debate Stannis being a hypocrite with you but I have a feeling we would both be here a long time and in the end neither of us would have any change in opinion, so i'll just leave it as it is.

People have different opinions on Stannis and that's part of what makes him interesting to talk about. But we are interpreting events in two different ways. It's clear you are none to fond of the character whereas I find him likable and intriguing; us arguing further will bear no fruit and change no one's mind.

[boojam]

Yes, that was probably what she had in mind, but I doubt Stannis knows. I'm among those that don't believe Stannis was aware that his sleeping with her would lead to Renly's death.

Twice this thread has given a away a major spoiler and it still seems to go over several heads.

[Isis]

^

It's a book spoilers thread though... idgi

Not null

[boojam]

^

It's a book spoilers thread though... idgi

Not null

I thought the treads hereabouts were a confluence of the show and book (with almost all the spoilers belonging to the books, one would have to have seen a future episode to give spoilers for that.) Tho for book readers we have some idea that the adaptation will use information from the books that could count as spoilers for the show.

Of course once they happen they won't be spoilers any more.

[HyacinthGirl]

I'm not a die hard Stannis fan myself, and so I had no problem with the Stannis/Mel scene. If you think about it, it's exactly how it must have gone down in the books. But I have a buddy who loves Stan the Man, and he was really annoyed by the scene; because it "didn't do Stannis justice/wasn't how Stannis would have acted."

Please. You all know he screwed Melisandre in the books. Possibly on the friggin' table. I don't get the inflated view of how awesome Stannis is: he talks about honour/justice/righteousness, but you all know he's a hypocrite. I'm not saying everything he does is hypocritical: there have been plenty of times when he is that "truly just man" that Varys talked about, but Melisandre, and R'hllor is an example of it. I don't think he's a bad character at all: I love the Davos chapters and Stannis is a very original character and all, I'm not Stan bashing. But how was that scene SUPPOSED to happen, if not by Melisandre seducing Stannis, urging him to give all of himself to R'hllor, promising him more power? (Yeah, the "a son?" line was a little weak, BUT THAT IS JUST FORESHADOWING, people.)

[Lyeder]

I did not really enjoy the scene - but I expected it. It was hinted at several points in the books, so it was obvious that they would not let an occasion like this pass to have a sex scene.

However, I did not find Stannis particularly lusty, but rather angry and strong in that scene. Of course, in this particulare situation where he projects himself kind, the necessity of a heir might push him more than in other moments of his life.

Somehow, I also always got the impression (in the books) that Selyse does not mind the relation beween Melisandre and Stannis. She is so fanatically into that new religion that it is more important than her marriage (which has never been a passionate one).

[teemo]

Cynical, no. Logical, yes. There isn't straight a man alive ,other than on tv, movies and romance novels, who is going to turn away an attractive naked woman begging him for sex.

So no taken man would turn down a naked woman for sex? Ever? Alive? In the whole world?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

So no taken man would turn down a naked woman for sex? Ever? Alive? In the whole world?

...Is going to turn away an attractive naked woman begging him for sex when he hasn't any consequences to suffer. No, he will not, and if anyone says otherwise, he is lying to placate a woman.

[teemo]

...Is going to turn away an attractive naked woman begging him for sex when he hasn't any consequences to suffer. No, he will not, and if anyone says otherwise, he is lying to placate a woman.

When you say consequences, are you including guilt? If so, I agree. Otherwise, I think that is way too big of a generalization. Plenty of people wouldn't cheat under any circumstances. May be the minority, but they exist.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

When you say consequences, are you including guilt? If so, I agree. Otherwise, I think that is way too big of a generalization. Plenty of people wouldn't cheat under any circumstances. May be the minority, but they exist.

At least 45 - 50% of married women cheat and 60 - 70% of married men. I cannot even imagine the amount percentage of those in unmarried "committed" relationships, and these are only U.S. statistics.

[teemo]

Well, I did say that the number of people who wouldn't cheat ARE in the minority, but they do exist. To say otherwise is a gross generalization.

[Jory]

I'm not a die hard Stannis fan myself, and so I had no problem with the Stannis/Mel scene. If you think about it, it's exactly how it must have gone down in the books. But I have a buddy who loves Stan the Man, and he was really annoyed by the scene; because it "didn't do Stannis justice/wasn't how Stannis would have acted."

Please. You all know he screwed Melisandre in the books. Possibly on the friggin' table. I don't get the inflated view of how awesome Stannis is: he talks about honour/justice/righteousness, but you all know he's a hypocrite. I'm not saying everything he does is hypocritical: there have been plenty of times when he is that "truly just man" that Varys talked about, but Melisandre, and R'hllor is an example of it. I don't think he's a bad character at all: I love the Davos chapters and Stannis is a very original character and all, I'm not Stan bashing. But how was that scene SUPPOSED to happen, if not by Melisandre seducing Stannis, urging him to give all of himself to R'hllor, promising him more power? (Yeah, the "a son?" line was a little weak, BUT THAT IS JUST FORESHADOWING, people.)

Well, I'm totally on the fence about the writer's (D&D's) portrayal of Stannis and I'm not sure if they really get him or not. I've heard things in the interviews that make me think they do, and then the shit about Stannis wanting a bastard son on Mel just made me go "what the hell." He's not a hypocrite, by the way - not in my view of the character, at least.

[Vandalism]

They should not have showed the scene. It went against Stannis' character and personality. They should have mentioned it subtly like the books did.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Idk, I think if you watch stannis carefully during that scene its pretty obvious he was already going to "give himself to the lord or light" before she brought up the son thing. I suspect they put that line in so that viewers will make the connection between the shadow son and the sex.

Stannis motivations in both book and shoe - IMO:

50% "give yourself" to the lord and your enemies will burn.

50% hot priestess who actually wants me yessss...

It's easy to explain why Davos is able to resist and Stannis gives in. Davos despises Mel, because she burnt his gods and (he thinks) she is manipulating his king. Stannis being an atheist doesn't care about the seven, and he doesn't think he's being manipulated. Attraction isn't only physical. If you hate someone that's a pretty good way to resist their temptations.

[7V3N]

The noise... Like, c'mon man.