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Howdyphillip

[BOOK SPOPILERS] Craster Cliffhanger

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The "cheapness" of a cliffhanger is really difficult to establish if you're using book hindsight for the tv show.

On this you are quite right. I am biased on the matter by having read the books in advance. I cannot know how non-reader feel about it.

However, I cannot "unmake" that, and I have only my opinion to work with (flawed as it is), so I guess we're back where we started. :)

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On this you are quite right. I am biased on the matter by having read the books in advance. I cannot know how non-reader feel about it.

However, I cannot "unmake" that, and I have only my opinion to work with (flawed as it is), so I guess we're back where we started. :)

Hey, that's what the boards are for right?:) In general, I prefer to judge the show as a seperate entity because book comparisons often lead to unnecessary frustration. But like you, I cannot undo my knowledge of the books so some form of comparison will always linger. Not all changes are bad though. GRRM has really created an unfilmable beast and I think that D&D are doing remarkably well. I am convinced, however, that they'll increasingly have to find their own voice (à la craster and jon) if the show is to remain succesful.

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This thread is such a great example of "so-called reader" purist outrage. Let me cite examples:

1) Renly + Loras ....Outrage - then oh, they are gay?

2) Stannis having Sex with Melisandre ... Outrage, before evidence pointed out. Still in denial.

3) Craster having a 'deal' with the Others ... Well, you get the picture.

4) Yara not being HOT! ...See the Yara thread in this sub-forum

Sure, none of these are stated outright. But if you cannot see how these are reasonable interpretations, then a re-read is recommended. The really sad part of this is how many of the purist nitpickers that don't know the books half as well as they think they do.

I can't wait to find out what the next outrage will be.

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I felt so stupid after watching because I totally forgot that it was known that Craster gave his boy babies to the Others.

It is known

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Seriously though, who's baby was it? Is it Gilly's or some other daughter wife? That seemed like the most cliffhanger part of the cliffhanger.

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Not Gilly's, She didn't look anywhere close to term. (Nor should she, since she gives birth far later in the books)

I'm not sure why people assume it is Gilly's baby. Did they not see that Craster has other "daughters"?

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Not Gilly's, She didn't look anywhere close to term. (Nor should she, since she gives birth far later in the books)

I'm not sure why people assume it is Gilly's baby. Did they not see that Craster has other "daughters"?

We all saw his other daughter-wives and we know Gilly gives birth much later (the show isn't even following the books to the letter). But I don't recall another daughter-wife giving birth while the NW is at Craster's in the books. I couldn't even tell that Gilly was pregnant in the show. She has so many clothes and furs wrapped around her. When Gilly is talking to Jon, she doesn't say anything about her sister/mothers/aunts being preggers with boys. So if no other child was born while the nights watch was there in the books (and my memory might be wrong on this) and if the show is following that example, then it's easy to think that it was Gilly's baby.

We already know that nothing terrible happens to Jon because he's in so many trailers and previews so that's not the cliffhanger. Truly, who's baby is it!

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In the books the NW goes to Craster's, then to the fist of the first men and send some rangers in different directions (Jon with halfhand, etc) the others are attacked (Sam, the slayer) and go back to craster's when returning to the wall. there (at craster's) is when/ where Mormont is killed.

I think the production is not going to show halfhand and none of it, and also think the NW is going to round up passing craster's one time, not two (and getting gilly) going to the fist and there will be a big attack/revolt jon will be caught by the wildings, mormont killed, sam and gilly lost...from there the same as the book (I was thinking production wise)

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I think the production is not going to show halfhand and none of it,

Wrong. Qhorin Halfhand is cast. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Qhorin_Halfhand

and also think the NW is going to round up passing craster's one time, not two (and getting gilly) going to the fist and there will be a big attack/revolt jon will be caught by the wildings, mormont killed, sam and gilly lost...from there the same as the book (I was thinking production wise)

No, the Jon story from ACOK appears to be pretty much intact (the major points), based on footage that have been seem from Iceland and various trailers.

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I thought it was dumb for 3 reasons: White walkers dogging the NW tail until they get fortified at the Fist? Doesn't make sense. Much easier to attack a column on the move and unprepared. Perhaps it was a lone WW come to claim the tribute, but still 1 WW can pretty much kill the entire NW expedition as soon as it leaves Craster's. The only way to kill a WW is with dragon glass and the NW have exactly none. And Mormont needs to meet up with Qhorin and send them on a ranging up the Skirling pass yet. I think it would have been fine to move the aSoS prologue into the final episode of the season and that would have been enough WW exposure for the season. Second reason it was dumb is the fact Craster snapped Jon and knocked him out. Contriving Jon not losing an appendage at least is gonna be a bit dumb, without killing off Craster. Jon wakes up, if he gets a chance to talk he's gonna spill the beans about Craster's cosy deal with the WW. Mormont has no choice but to kill Craster. Colluding with the great evil beyond the wall can't be tolerated from anyone. 3rd reason, why the hell would Craster risk being seen with hundreds of black brothers around, and no doubt some of them on guard duty simply because that's what you do when you are on an expedition, even in a place of relative safety, North of the wall no where is truly safe for the NW. So it's just not logically consistent within the context of the world, IMO.

And there really is no need to resolve the "what does Craster do with his son's" mystery within the space of 2 episodes. I think the Craster angle could have pretty much been played out as per the book. Did they do it perhaps because they couldn't be sure of season 3 so they didn't want to leave too many lose ends? They could have shown him dropping a son out to the WW the night after they leave, without any witnesses.

I just don't see a satisfying resolution to this. If there is a satisfying resolution I'll change my opinion, because I'm not complaining simply because it's a change from the books. I just don't see a way to get through this digression without it looking contrived and awkward. We'll see I guess.

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Seriously though, who's baby was it? Is it Gilly's or some other daughter wife? That seemed like the most cliffhanger part of the cliffhanger.

I assume it was not Gillys baby because her baby plays a future role in the story. After Sam is sent from the wall with the baby, he later surmises that Jon swapped the baby with Mances.

Mayhaps the producers saw the story as insigifigant & thought it was best to show baby taken right there, and give Sam cause to take her to safety.

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Do I remember incorrectly.. I though t Craster had some relationship with the skinchangers, doesn't he give the boy babies to them? It wasn't a white walker was it?

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One point I would like to make is that when you see a deviation from the books in the show,you should give it time to play out as a plot line before making a final judgement on whether it works or not.

Such a simple point and yet so few actually seem capable of understanding it. A pity.

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I thought it was dumb for 3 reasons: White walkers dogging the NW tail until they get fortified at the Fist? Doesn't make sense. Much easier to attack a column on the move and unprepared. Perhaps it was a lone WW come to claim the tribute, but still 1 WW can pretty much kill the entire NW expedition as soon as it leaves Craster's. The only way to kill a WW is with dragon glass and the NW have exactly none.

The books never say anything of the sort and if that's the case it seems completely unnecessary for them to create an army of wights. The Night's Watch have at least one item with them that's speculated to be very efficient against them, plus that we know they hate warmth and they might not like fire that much more than their wight's do. And on an even simpler note, I've yet to read anything that suggests that it would be impossible for hundreds of men to wrestle it down and tie it up.

You answer the rest of your post yourself (that it's best to wait and see).

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I knew it was a white walker/other when I saw it, but I can see how non book readers got confused, and I think thats the point. I mean I heard the noises it made and that was a clue, but I watched the episode twice and never even seen the blue eyes because they were so quick. Then I was on here and saw all these comments, rewatched and saw it.

I see alot of complaints on how the series isnt subtle and just lay things out in a dumbed down fashion, but this is a perfect example of how the show can be subtle. People who havent read the books are most likely NOT going to realize that its a white walker and I think that was the producers intent. There going to say "what in the hell was that?!?!" And for fans who really pay attention they will see the blue eye and make the connection. Obviously this techinque is somewhat dumbed down from the books but this is a different medium, and I think it worked well to build antipation for the next episode. I assume in the next episode there will be something that confirms easily for non book watchers the identity of the baby stealers.

Overall I think there doing a very good job in this episode, except for the Ros and LF scene. I love LF, but I just dont see Ros not being able to work because of what she saw, like man ya in our world that would be crazy and heartbreaking, but this is Westeros people. Crazy nasty stuff happens, get over it. I just plain hate Ros, shes not hot, shes a terrible character, and i just dont liek seeing her. That scene wasted too much time

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Why are people making such a big fuss about who's baby it is? It isn't Gilly's and it doesn't really matter. This'll show Jon and Sam Gilly's plight, so that when they return to Craster's in season 3, Sam will take her with him.

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I knew it was a white walker/other when I saw it, but I can see how non book readers got confused, and I think thats the point. I mean I heard the noises it made and that was a clue, but I watched the episode twice and never even seen the blue eyes because they were so quick. Then I was on here and saw all these comments, rewatched and saw it.

I'm surprised so many missed the blue eyes. I saw the episode on a low-res HBOGO stream, and the eyes were perfectly visible when I watched the 1st time. Perhaps they missed them because the eyes were higher up than would be expected - the WW are after all a bit taller than humans.

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They are enormous! The White Walkers- both in S1 and S2 -are played by the guy who is playing Gregor Clegane this season, and he's seven foot one! There was no doubt in my mind what was going on. I'm an avid reader, and I was curious to see what was going to happen- even knowing what Craster was doing. There is very little that can terrify me, the voice of a White Walker is one of the things that can. That icy, crackling snarl is so unique and so distinctive I knew what Jon was heading towards as soon as I heard it- my blood ran cold and my heart was in my throat; that scene terrified me because of I) The White Walker and II) It wasn't part of the book; I couldn't tell what was going to happen, but anything involving the White Walkers can't be good. I just want to know what they do with the kids now. I mean one moment the baby is screaming his head off, the next he stops, and the White Walker gently picks him up and carries him away. I wonder if they're going to discuss that next episode...

In any case- there were four key factors which gave away what that figure was. Size, shape [They do have a distinctive silhouette], those unbelievably bright blue eyes, and its voice. Unless people forgot what the White Walkers sounded like, looked like, and forgot they had blue eyes in just nine episodes. However, considering the complexity of the show [due to the original material] I don't blame them for being confused- GRRM is a genius at hiding plot points for whole books if necessary and then unveiling them to a reader's horror. Unfortunately, that doesn't work well with a TV show that also needs to satisfy a casual audience.

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Book readers would know that all the wildling villages are empty all around Craster's keep, and it's in WW teritorry, and in fact it's repeatedly pointed out how weird it is that no one touches Craster's keep, not the wildlings and not the WWs especially with him being a friend to the Watch. So later when it's revealed that Craster is giving his sons to the WW we understand the mystery. But in the show it's not clear what's so weird about CK being where it is so if they didn't show the sacrifice non book readers wouldn't understand there's something unnatural going on.

Besides the baby sacrifice thing is just the sort of thing TV writers love so I expected it to be explicitly shown. Now I expect Mormont will probably send Jon away with Qhorin and Sam will kill Craster in the ensuing melee shortening the story for the show.

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This probably isn't the right place to ask this but it's something I've wondered.

How is it that Craster is a friend of the watch and also in league with the WW? It seems that these would be opposing alliances.

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