R+L=J v.23

[Angalin]

Last posts of the last thread:

This. It really doesn't make sense that Rhaegar would travel all the way to WInterfell and then down to Dorne (and that with a supposedly unwilling company). It makes very much sense that Lord Rickard, aware of his daughter's uncouth manners, would want her "educated" a bit in the southern ways. Add to it his "southron ambitions", which would allow him to establish closer ties with Whents, who were a prominent family back then. I think her stay at Harrenhall was arranged even before the tourney - due to Whent's relationship to Rhaegar, Harrenhall might seem a somewhat less desirable place, but Rickard wouldn't want to offend the Whents.

I think a clue is given in ADWD as to why Whent was one of the three knights, and not Barristan or Darry or even Martell. From one of Barristan's chapter we learn that there was a rumor of Rhaegar plotting against Aerys, and that the tourney at Harrenhal was just a front for Rhaegar to gather support. Well if that's true (and this reminds me of the fake tourney at Whitewalls), then Lord Whent, and implicitly Oswell would be in on it. So in the end, it makes sense why Rhaegar chose to trust Whent alongside Dayne. My question is why Hightower? I don't know if being the LC was enough to have him trusted with guarding Lyanna. Hopefully we'll learn about the Hightowers through Sam in future books.

Like I said, Rhaegar would need Hightower's support if he was serious about overthrowing his father. It makes sense that they'd cultivate a good relationship.

We have a hint that LC Hightower was in on the coup by Jaime pointing out Criston Cole to Loras in the White Book. But I don´t understand how he plays into all of this either. I think revealing this would be too much of a give away.

It could also be a clue that by then Rhaegar was the de facto king, such that the Kingsguard and its Lord Commander were following his orders and not so much Aerys'.

I think both. See post #360

[Opkio]

This is my first post. so bear with me here.

I just started my second read through and I am more and more into the theory that R+L=J and that John might be AA. From a AGOT i read , that Jon has dreams about her mother being a highlord( "yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. in his dreams she was beatiful, ad highborn), yet he cant see her face in the dreams. Is this considered a clue to the fact that Jon mother s definitely not Wylla, but Lyanna Stark? What do you make of this?

does lyanna's death happen after the lannister's take kings landing? because from AGOT from ned POV it says that ned had a quarrel with robert over the lannister's killing elia's and rhaegar's children and that they only reconcile after lyanna's death. I am bit confused with the timeline here.

[greygnarl]

I know that we need to accept that some people are dead, but Mance used rubies to change his appearance, why not Rhaegar?

[greygnarl]

Lyanna died after the sack of King's Landing.

[Dragonfish]

I know that we need to accept that some people are dead, but Mance used rubies to change his appearance, why not Rhaegar?

Rhaegar is dead. George has stated that his body was cremated, and in a fairly recent interview he referred to Rhaegar as a dead character.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just started my second read through and I am more and more into the theory that R+L=J and that John might be AA. From a AGOT i read , that Jon has dreams about her mother being a highlord( "yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. in his dreams she was beatiful, ad highborn), yet he cant see her face in the dreams. Is this considered a clue to the fact that Jon mother s definitely not Wylla, but Lyanna Stark? What do you make of this?

I think Jon's "memory"/"dreams" of his mother being highborn are more wishful thinking on his part. I wouldn't exactly use them are strong evidence.

does lyanna's death happen after the lannister's take kings landing? because from AGOT from ned POV it says that ned had a quarrel with robert over the lannister's killing elia's and rhaegar's children and that they only reconcile after lyanna's death. I am bit confused with the timeline here.

Lyanna died a few weeks to a month-ish after the Sack.

[Teal'c]

I think George is fibbing, and Rhaegar is on the Quiet Isle with the Elder Brother who is Jonothor Darry.

Rubies. Glamour. Rubies. Deception. Rubies. Quiet Isle. Rubies.

[Dragonfish]

I think George is fibbing, and Rhaegar is on the Quiet Isle with the Elder Brother who is Jonothor Darry.

Rubies. Glamour. Rubies. Deception. Rubies. Quiet Isle. Rubies.

George has never "fibbed" before when it comes to stuff like this. He always remained mum about Aegon's fate, for example, so why on earth would he decide to lie and say Rhaegar was dead? Just doesn't make sense.

[Lady Octarina]

I think Jon's "memory"/"dreams" of his mother being highborn are more wishful thinking on his part. I wouldn't exactly use them are strong evidence.

That's how I first interpreted it, but after Bran's dreams, well... Jon wouldn't be the first character with Stark blood to have those dreams, nor the first Targaryen (I'm thinking about Daeron, Maester Aemon's brother) - not to mention whatever Bloodraven's plans for him might be, sending him bits of information at a time on who he is might be a part of it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's how I first interpreted it, but after Bran's dreams, well... Jon wouldn't be the first character with Stark blood to have those dreams, nor the first Targaryen (I'm thinking about Daeron, Maester Aemon's brother) - not to mention whatever Bloodraven's plans for him might be, sending him bits of information at a time on who he is might be a part of it.

But those dreams were prophetic, weren't they? I don't recall anyone dreaming about something that had already happened. Bran can see the past but it's through a weirwood.

[Opkio]

That's how I first interpreted it, but after Bran's dreams, well... Jon wouldn't be the first character with Stark blood to have those dreams, nor the first Targaryen (I'm thinking about Daeron, Maester Aemon's brother) - not to mention whatever Bloodraven's plans for him might be, sending him bits of information at a time on who he is might be a part of it.

that was my first impression as well. I first thought it was just dreams, then after i read it again and came to the idea it might be something, given the fact that dreams do play important parts in foreshadowing i.e bran's dreams. i am not saying i might be right, however, it could be interesting to point out that maybe jon abilities are stronger than they seem. He does have another vision of benjen stark dying in the snow in AGOT."as he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, jon had remmmembered the things that tyrion lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw benjen stark lying dead, his bload red on the snow. the thought made him sick". why would jon think that, or was it a more like a vision that he makes out as just a thought since he doesnt know his full potential atm?

[Lady Octarina]

But those dreams were prophetic, weren't they? I don't recall anyone dreaming about something that had already happened. Bran can see the past but it's through a weirwood.

Yes, but there's still the Bloodraven hypothesis. Also, okay, seeing Lyanna would be a dream about the past, but on the other hand we can also stretch the meaning to the future, since he isn't aware of R+L yet.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, but there's still the Bloodraven hypothesis. Also, okay, seeing Lyanna would be a dream about the past, but on the other hand we can also stretch the meaning to the future, since he isn't aware of R+L yet.

Ehhhhh. Perhaps. I still would never, ever use "Jon dreamt of his mother being highborn" as concrete evidence for the Lyanna theory. It's pretty weak.

[The guy from the Vale]

I'm with AppleMartini here. Also, even if we accept this as evidence, it fits Ashara Dayne just as well.

[Barty]

I'm in the vastly outnumbered camp which does not believe R+L=J theory, though my reasons are pretty simple - I dont think Jon can end up having up a pet direwolf as well as a pet dragon -thats just 1 pet too many

[The guy from the Vale]

I'm in the vastly outnumbered camp which does not believe R+L=J theory, though my reasons are pretty simple - I dont think Jon can end up having up a pet direwolf as well as a pet dragon -thats just 1 pet too many

It might well be that he has to kill Ghost way before getting a dragon. If he ever gets one, that is; I'm not so sure he'll be a dragon rider, after all...

[Lady Octarina]

Ehhhhh. Perhaps. I still would never, ever use "Jon dreamt of his mother being highborn" as concrete evidence for the Lyanna theory. It's pretty weak.

Oh, I agree with you about that, I'm just saying it's not impossible he has that kind of dreams ;)

[Darth Rivers]

_{I hope Jon dies. He's boring.}

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

_{I hope Jon dies. He's boring.}

Yeah good luck with that.

[Opkio]

Oh, I agree with you about that, I'm just saying it's not impossible he has that kind of dreams ;)

thats exactly what i meant. sorry if i didnt express myself more accurately. but i was trying to point out that could it be possible that he was having dreams of her mother being highborn, regardless of who she might be. or was it just wishful thinking on his part.