Jump to content

Angalin

Recommended Posts

I was all for R+L=J because after my first read I felt that there was something odd about Jon's parentage, there were too many mysteries and too many mentions about it for something like Jon's mom. But after reading the tower of the hand's essay about it I'm absolutely convinced about R+L=J.

I just think there's one thing that isn't mentioned there, why would Wylla agree to say that she's Jon's mom? I would appreciate if anyone could mention this as it has probably been mentioned before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just think there's one thing that isn't mentioned there, why would Wylla agree to say that she's Jon's mom? I would appreciate if anyone could mention this as it has probably been mentioned before.

If she delivered him and nursed him, which is what I believe, she would have formed a strong emotional bond to him and would want to keep him safe. I think that's probably the only scenario that really explains Wylla's involvement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she delivered him and nursed him, which is what I believe, she would have formed a strong emotional bond to him and would want to keep him safe. I think that's probably the only scenario that really explains Wylla's involvement.

And this. We see parallel structure where Gilly is attached to Mance and Dalla's baby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was all for R+L=J because after my first read I felt that there was something odd about Jon's parentage, there were too many mysteries and too many mentions about it for something like Jon's mom. But after reading the tower of the hand's essay about it I'm absolutely convinced about R+L=J.

I just think there's one thing that isn't mentioned there, why would Wylla agree to say that she's Jon's mom? I would appreciate if anyone could mention this as it has probably been mentioned before.

Maybe she didn't agree to say that she is Jon's mother, but agreed to NOT say that she ISN'T.

A lot of the cover up into who Jon's mother is seems to be based on Ned allowing people to come to their own conclusions and for him simply not to deny it or just not say anything about it at all.

But as to why Wylla allowed her self to be put in this position? ....Nevermind. Pipped at the post! Teal'c and Apple Martini said the two things I was going to suggest: loyalty to the Daynes and Targaryens and affection for the child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she delivered him and nursed him, which is what I believe, she would have formed a strong emotional bond to him and would want to keep him safe. I think that's probably the only scenario that really explains Wylla's involvement.

Okay, this seems really plausible so I'm going to agree with you.

I had thought that it was because she was loyal but it would take a remarkably loyal and honorable person to not sell out the information about Rhaegar's son. I don't imagine a lot of people would do that, not saying it is impossible but it is really hard to find someone like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, this seems really plausible so I'm going to agree with you.

I had thought that it was because she was loyal but it would take a remarkably loyal and honorable person to not sell out the information about Rhaegar's son. I don't imagine a lot of people would do that, not saying it is impossible but it is really hard to find someone like that.

The loyalty thing is probably part of it, but the Daynes' prince (Rhaegar) and two of their principal members (Arthur and Ashara) were dead or soon to be dead. Allaria and their other brother, from what we can tell, weren't really involved there. So Wylla would have had to have had some other "link" to the action, in order to stay in the fold, and an emotional attachment to Jon is a possible solution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The loyalty thing is probably part of it, but the Daynes' prince (Rhaegar) and two of their principal members (Arthur and Ashara) were dead or soon to be dead. Allaria and their other brother, from what we can tell, weren't really involved there. So Wylla would have had to have had some other "link" to the action, in order to stay in the fold, and an emotional attachment to Jon is a possible solution.

Yes I agree, not a lot of common girls would be as loyal, that's why I like the idea of an emotional connection. It fits in really well, kudos for thinking of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, this seems really plausible so I'm going to agree with you.

I had thought that it was because she was loyal but it would take a remarkably loyal and honorable person to not sell out the information about Rhaegar's son. I don't imagine a lot of people would do that, not saying it is impossible but it is really hard to find someone like that.

that's actually another reason why I don't believe R+L=J. As you say, it would be hard to find someone that loyal who would go along with the lie. Even harder to find an entire staff of people willing to go along with the lie.

So let's assume that Wylla is part of the conspiracy. She is loyal to her employers and so forth, which is pretty common anyways. I can get that, Wylla is loyal to her masters so she lies, or just doesn't say she ISN'T Jon's mom. Whatever.

However, there are other servants as well. Are they all as loyal as Wylla and willing to lie or contribute to the cover up? Don't you think some other servant would notice when Wylla gave birth? Don't you think some other servant would know who the father was? Surely, Edric Storm who is a boy would have heard the castle gossip. For Wylla to be a "milk mother" she would have to have given birth at some point. If she was sleeping around with other men, wouldn't this be common knowledge? If she slept with another man and had his baby, wouldn't this cast doubt on Jon's parentage? Why is the other man who slept with Wylla not saying anything?

Also about the promise to Lyanna on her deathbed. It could have been anything, to assume it was some weird promise to protect a baby is assumption in my opinion. Lyanna could have asked anything. Like (not saying this is what she asked, just showing it's equally as possible) "Hey Ned I know Robert will make a crap king, you should be king instead." Ned knowing his sister was dying said ok, but in his mind knew he would support Robert to be king because he had the better claim. Or any number of other possibilities. In the tv series I remember Pycelle saying, "A dying man's last words are often as wise as his first words." People are making out like Lyanna's last words had to be something amazing, when quite plausibly they were something insignificant.

When Ned remembers her dying in his POV why does he never think "Lyanna's baby"? Seems a pretty big thing to not remember in your thoughts. He doesn't remember "Lyanna's baby" because there was no baby. It's a romantic idea, so I understand why you want to think there was a special Targaryen baby prince. Unfortunately there isn't one. Jon is the son of Ned and some other woman.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that's actually another reason why I don't believe R+L=J. As you say, it would be hard to find someone that loyal who would go along with the lie. Even harder to find an entire staff of people willing to go along with the lie.

So let's assume that Wylla is part of the conspiracy. She is loyal to her employers and so forth, which is pretty common anyways. I can get that, Wylla is loyal to her masters so she lies, or just doesn't say she ISN'T Jon's mom. Whatever.

However, there are other servants as well. Are they all as loyal as Wylla and willing to lie or contribute to the cover up? Don't you think some other servant would notice when Wylla gave birth? Don't you think some other servant would know who the father was? Surely, Edric Storm who is a boy would have heard the castle gossip. For Wylla to be a "milk mother" she would have to have given birth at some point. If she was sleeping around with other men, wouldn't this be common knowledge? If she slept with another man and had his baby, wouldn't this cast doubt on Jon's parentage? Why is the other man who slept with Wylla not saying anything?

Actually I don't think there were other servants there, because of the secrecy involved. It wasn't an actual castle, just a ramshackle tower in the middle of nowhere. I think it was Lyanna, the three Kingsguards and Wylla, but Wylla was there primarily to deliver and help nurse the baby. Wylla was brought from Starfall because that was the Daynes' house and Arthur knew who worked there.

About Wylla's lactation: She actually doesn't need to have had a child in the very recent past. Wet nurses maintain their milk for quite a while, because they always have children feeding from them. Lactation is kind of cyclical — a woman has milk and nurses a child, and if that child keeps nursing from her, she'll still produce milk.

Also about the promise to Lyanna on her deathbed. It could have been anything, to assume it was some weird promise to protect a baby is assumption in my opinion. Lyanna could have asked anything. Like (not saying this is what she asked, just showing it's equally as possible) "Hey Ned I know Robert will make a crap king, you should be king instead." Ned knowing his sister was dying said ok, but in his mind knew he would support Robert to be king because he had the better claim. Or any number of other possibilities. In the tv series I remember Pycelle saying, "A dying man's last words are often as wise as his first words." People are making out like Lyanna's last words had to be something amazing, when quite plausibly they were something insignificant.

What promise could Ned have possibly made that would mean living a lie for 14 years, which just so happens to be the same age as Jon? If her words were insignificant, why do they still haunt Ned after a decade and a half?

When Ned remembers her dying in his POV why does he never think "Lyanna's baby"? Seems a pretty big thing to not remember in your thoughts. He doesn't remember "Lyanna's baby" because there was no baby. It's a romantic idea, so I understand why you want to think there was a special Targaryen baby prince. Unfortunately there isn't one. Jon is the son of Ned and some other woman.

If it is some other woman, what's keeping Ned from telling Jon about it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...Also about the promise to Lyanna on her deathbed. It could have been anything, to assume it was some weird promise to protect a baby is assumption in my opinion. Lyanna could have asked anything. Like (not saying this is what she asked, just showing it's equally as possible) "Hey Ned I know Robert will make a crap king, you should be king instead." Ned knowing his sister was dying said ok, but in his mind knew he would support Robert to be king because he had the better claim. Or any number of other possibilities. In the tv series I remember Pycelle saying, "A dying man's last words are often as wise as his first words." People are making out like Lyanna's last words had to be something amazing, when quite plausibly they were something insignificant...

The part you are leaving out of the logic is that Lyanna was afraid of something and asked Ned for a promise. He gave her that promise and then she wasn't afraid. The woman was dying and she knew it. There wasn't much to be more afraid of than that, except being unable to protect her child.

Think in terms of something she was afraid of, and something Ned had in his power to grant - something she couldn't be sure he would do until he promised it. "Robert Baratheon is your best friend. You just helped him overthrow the king. Will you hide Rhaegar's child from him?"

Also, Ned remembers Lyanna begging while Sansa is begging Ned not to let Robert condemn Lady. Parallel structure, a meaning within the meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What promise could Ned have possibly made that would mean living a lie for 14 years, which just so happens to be the same age as Jon? If her words were insignificant, why do they still haunt Ned after a decade and a half?

Not to mention that Ned specifically recalls paying a price to keep his promises to Lyanna. I don't know how anyone could read AGOT and think his promises to Lyanna concerned something insignificant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The price he paid being his honour and the grief with his wife.

As to Wylla's complicity, why do so many people assume that she would have any clue who the mother or father of the child was?

Wet nurses often feed motherless children. So she assumes the child is Ned's but is told not to ask or talk about the mother, for which she is given a purse of gold.

Even if someone asks her if she's the mother and she denies it, the gossipy folk will believe whatever they feel the most salacious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, there are other servants as well. Are they all as loyal as Wylla and willing to lie or contribute to the cover up? Don't you think some other servant would notice when Wylla gave birth? Don't you think some other servant would know who the father was? Surely, Edric Storm who is a boy would have heard the castle gossip. For Wylla to be a "milk mother" she would have to have given birth at some point. If she was sleeping around with other men, wouldn't this be common knowledge? If she slept with another man and had his baby, wouldn't this cast doubt on Jon's parentage? Why is the other man who slept with Wylla not saying anything?

Not only is it correct that you don't necessarily have to had a baby recently to be a wet nurse (I think it was Apple Martini that said that), but you almost argue against yourself here. Yes, other servants would have noticed she was pregnant. Yes, other servants would have noticed she gave birth. And for all they know, she gave birth to Jon Snow. Only Wylla would know the identity of her baby, and could have said she had twins...who knows? There are many conceivable ways that Wylla is the only one in the castle that knows the identity of the baby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The price he paid being his honour and the grief with his wife.

As to Wylla's complicity, why do so many people assume that she would have any clue who the mother or father of the child was?

Wet nurses often feed motherless children. So she assumes the child is Ned's but is told not to ask or talk about the mother, for which she is given a purse of gold.

Even if someone asks her if she's the mother and she denies it, the gossipy folk will believe whatever they feel the most salacious.

Pretty good point

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>.<

Jon is Ned's son, it is proven in the books. Let have a look at the tv series as well. Robb, Bran Arya, Sansa all consider Jon to be their brother. Cateln in the tv series and in the books considers Jon as Ned's son.

Hmm, because we should obviously trust the tv writers (tv writers never change the story, characters, script. . . ). In the books Sansa repeatedly insists on calling and thinking of Jon as her "half-brother" (emphasis on the half, especially, for ex., in the scene where Robert and co. visit Winterfell and Marcella is present).

the fondness that Arya feels for Jon is frequently brought up; GRRM calls attention to the fact that Jon and Arya look like each other. He also repeatedly draws attention to the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, as well as behaves like her. Perhaps the tv series has done something well, if in fact Jon is Lyanna's child, b/c Kit Harrington and Maisie Williams look very alike.

And why are we so stuck on Ned telling Robert the truth? He admits to himself that he has lied--one, big lie that he chose to tell and live with for 14 years. Since Ned is so honorable, we're all dying to know what it is. But it must have been pretty good for him to tell it. We know for certain (Ned tells us) that it was told for love, and that's about all we know for sure. Fish and purple-stoned hairnets (so like those little purple stones Cressen uses so ineffectively) aside, there's obviously some reason Ned (and GRRM) didn't reveal something to Jon and the readers, especially when we know how much Jon wants to know about his mother. Are you suggesting he's just a giant tease?

I discovered this series a few months ago and read through all five books before I started asking some serious questions about Jon. To my shame, I think--I have graduate degrees in literature! Two things sent me down that road. One, by the end of book 5, my perception of Rhaegar, and Targaryens in general, were starting to change. Who are the real 'monsters'? The real 'bad guys'? Tyrion Lannister? Cersei? Tywin? Rhaegar? The Freys? Gregor Clegane? We start from one place and repeatedly are asked to consider what we know about characters, their histories, their motivations. I began firmly on the side of Ned and Robert. I didn't necessarily end there. Two, by the end of book 5, I had heard three different women were Jon's mother. Now, generally, it only takes one birth mother. . . So if I wasn't suspicious when Ned quickly offered up Wylla, then clammed up about it, or asked his wife "where did you hear that name?" in regards to Ashara, and then forbid her to ever discuss it again, or someone claiming to be an eyewitness said some fisherchic with a baby in a boat helped Ned cross the Neck. . . notice how each time it gets more and more vague? I guess I'm as bad a gossip as those soldiers and servants who want to know all about Ned's bastard. But too late, I was asking questions. And all of a sudden I realized I didn't really remember how Robert actually got to be on the throne, just that he had fought some war against the awful dreadful Targaryens (who maybe weren't always so awful after all), and something Selmy said about how if it hadn't been for Rhaegar and Lyanna that thousands wouldn't have died. . . and so I went and reviewed some history on the wiki about the rebellion, and all the battles, and suddenly the next question in my mind was: who the heck are Jon's parents, really? Funny, hundreds of other readers got there long before I did. Perhaps, like the soldiers, servants and tavern storytellers, we're all being duped.

still, total win on the trolling

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another point against this fictional theory is clearly pointed out in the first book Game of Thrones. So many of you think "Ned kept it a secret because he thought Robert would flip out and kill the baby."

I disagree with this. We all saw in Game of Thrones, the first book how shocked and disgusted Ned was when he found out Robert wanted to assassinate Dany. Ned was like wtf? I fought 2 wars for you Robert and now you gonna try and kill a 12 year old girl and expect me to support you? That's bullshit Robert. The man I fought with and won two wars with wouldn't do that. Ned was shocked and disgusted Robert would think of killing a child. Even though that child was Dany and a Targeryan and a possible future threat to the throne.

Yet in your own words, people who argue for R+L=J, you claim Ned lied about Jon because he was scared of Robert's reaction. This is impossible. As we see from Ned's reaction to Robert's intent of assassinating Dany, he is shocked how much Robert has changed. And even though he know's Robert sucks as a king and is a changed man, he can't believe he'd order the killing of a "child", I dunno what is Dany at that point? 12 or something. Yet you are arguing that the good Robert, the honorable fighter in the past, would want to kill a baby when he was the good guy? Tywin Lannister ordered the killing of Aegon because he was a total arsehole, it's never suggested or even implied that Robert would do the same thing.

I totally believe that in Ned's mind during the rebellion, he believed (and was right in believing) that Robert would never kill a baby. So why even lie that Jon was his bab when it was his sister's baby? The answer is he never lied, the baby was his and that's why he said the baby was his.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally believe that in Ned's mind during the rebellion, he believed (and was right in believing) that Robert would never kill a baby. So why even lie that Jon was his bab when it was his sister's baby? The answer is he never lied, the baby was his and that's why he said the baby was his.

Are you freaking serious? You realize that like a month before Ned found Lyanna, Rhaegar's other children had been stabbed and beaten to death and that Robert had smiled to see their dead bodies, and he certainly didn't, say, punish Tywin or Gregor or Lorch. Abso-fucking-lutely Ned had reason to think that Robert would kill a Targaryen baby or allow one to be killed, because he already had.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you freaking serious? You realize that like a month before Ned found Lyanna, Rhaegar's other children had been stabbed and beaten to death and that Robert had smiled to see their dead bodies, and he certainly didn't, say, punish Tywin or Gregor or Lorch. Abso-fucking-lutely Ned had reason to think that Robert would kill a Targaryen baby or allow one to be killed, because he already had.

Not to mention that quite a couple of people were sure Robert would kill Cersei's bastards if he ever found out, so, nay he would totally never think about killing a child of the man he hated to the core. The memory of dead Aegon haunts Ned years after that; freshly afterwards, having split up with Robert because of that, there was really no way he could be sure that Robert would not harm a child of Rhaegar's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to mention that quite a couple of people were sure Robert would kill Cersei's bastards if he ever found out, so, nay he would totally never think about killing a child of the man he hated to the core. The memory of dead Aegon haunts Ned years after that; freshly afterwards, having split up with Robert because of that, there was really no way he could be sure that Robert would not harm a child of Rhaegar's.

Finally, even if Ned could convince himself that Robert wouldn't hurt Jon, that doesn't guarantee that the Lannisters wouldn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...