R+L=J v.23

[Alia of the knife]

Another point against this fictional theory is clearly pointed out in the first book Game of Thrones. So many of you think "Ned kept it a secret because he thought Robert would flip out and kill the baby."

I disagree with this. We all saw in Game of Thrones, the first book how shocked and disgusted Ned was when he found out Robert wanted to assassinate Dany. Ned was like wtf? I fought 2 wars for you Robert and now you gonna try and kill a 12 year old girl and expect me to support you? That's bullshit Robert. The man I fought with and won two wars with wouldn't do that. Ned was shocked and disgusted Robert would think of killing a child. Even though that child was Dany and a Targeryan and a possible future threat to the throne.

Yet in your own words, people who argue for R+L=J, you claim Ned lied about Jon because he was scared of Robert's reaction. This is impossible. As we see from Ned's reaction to Robert's intent of assassinating Dany, he is shocked how much Robert has changed. And even though he know's Robert sucks as a king and is a changed man, he can't believe he'd order the killing of a "child", I dunno what is Dany at that point? 12 or something. Yet you are arguing that the good Robert, the honorable fighter in the past, would want to kill a baby when he was the good guy? Tywin Lannister ordered the killing of Aegon because he was a total arsehole, it's never suggested or even implied that Robert would do the same thing.

I totally believe that in Ned's mind during the rebellion, he believed (and was right in believing) that Robert would never kill a baby. So why even lie that Jon was his bab when it was his sister's baby? The answer is he never lied, the baby was his and that's why he said the baby was his.

Because Robert was employing the Henry II vs. Thomas Becket techinique,,,oh if only SOMEONE, (Tywin) would rid me of these turbulent dragon spawn, thus hands clean.

His tacit approval of the killing of Rhaegars children was the catalyst for Ned and Roberts first rift, and Neds disillusion with Robert, (though he seemed to cling to some ideal of Robert, even later).

Ned was always hoping to find some vestige of the old Robert of the Vale before he became twisted.

Why are you so offended by the R+L theory, which seems the most plausible?

I go back and forth about the nature of R and L's relationship, but I'm pretty certain that the outcome is Jon, and if not Jon, somebody, because I don't doubt they had a child together.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

You can't deny that a Targaryen in Westeros wouldn't have a price in his head

[Eira Seren]

As to Wylla's complicity, why do so many people assume that she would have any clue who the mother or father of the child was?

Wet nurses often feed motherless children. So she assumes the child is Ned's but is told not to ask or talk about the mother, for which she is given a purse of gold.

Even if someone asks her if she's the mother and she denies it, the gossipy folk will believe whatever they feel the most salacious.

and if nobody else is offering her a higher price, even if she does know the truth, why would she reveal what she knows? (at least according to sellsword logic). Keeping this secret is a great retirement plan for Wylla.

[Alia of the knife]

A smart Targ. in Westeros would not be known.

(Imagine simple Ned outsmarting the likes of Varys and LF, as well as Tywin)

In real history, most families with a claim planned their "come back" from distant shores.

[Eira Seren]

A smart Targ. in Westeros would not be known.

(Imagine simple Ned outsmarting the likes of Varys and LF, as well as Tywin)

In real history, most families with a claim planned their "come back" from distant shores.

Yes, and look how well that's worked out! Bonny Prince Charlie, anyone? or Viserys? Of course, I assume that's why the Targs head to Dragonstone when they lose.

But you know, the best place to hide anything is actually in plain sight.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, and look how well that's worked out! Bonny Prince Charlie, anyone? or Viserys? Of course, I assume that's why the Targs head to Dragonstone when they lose.

But you know, the best place to hide anything is actually in plain sight.

Worked for Henry VII.

[Ygrain]

Because Robert was employing the Henry II vs. Thomas Becket techinique,,,oh if only SOMEONE, (Tywin) would rid me of these turbulent dragon spawn, thus hands clean.

An excellent point - though with a child of Rhaegar's, whose birth cost Lyanna her life... the Seven know what he would have done.

- Oh, I've just remembered, concerning the dried roses: I used to keep a couple of those I got from my husband, for several years, and they actually survived in a pretty good shape. I had to break them to pieces before I could dispose of them, and though a petal fell off here and there, they did not crumble to dust because of the manipulation, so that's why I presumed Lyanna might have been hodling the crown from Harrenhall.

Also, cultivated roses require good conditions and care, and I don't think there were gardens around ToJ, so fresh roses for Lyanna would be hard to get. There could have been an occasional delivery from Starfall, but that might have risen question, so, all in all, I don't think there were many fresh blue roses to come by at ToJ

[Eira Seren]

Worked for Henry VII.

true, and very nearly for Henry V.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes, and look how well that's worked out! Bonny Prince Charlie, anyone? or Viserys? Of course, I assume that's why the Targs head to Dragonstone when they lose.

But you know, the best place to hide anything is actually in plain sight.

Like your history, but Jon doesn't even know he's what he is, so the ruse is perfect, and thats why Ned is awesome.

[Alia of the knife]

An excellent point - though with a child of Rhaegar's, whose birth cost Lyanna her life... the Seven know what he would have done.

- Oh, I've just remembered, concerning the dried roses: I used to keep a couple of those I got from my husband, for several years, and they actually survived in a pretty good shape. I had to break them to pieces before I could dispose of them, and though a petal fell off here and there, they did not crumble to dust because of the manipulation, so that's why I presumed Lyanna might have been hodling the crown from Harrenhall.

Also, cultivated roses require good conditions and care, and I don't think there were gardens around ToJ, so fresh roses for Lyanna would be hard to get. There could have been an occasional delivery from Starfall, but that might have risen question, so, all in all, I don't think there were many fresh blue roses to come by at ToJ

I can't remember, were they mentioned specifically as roses, or were Neds visions incorrect?

I thought I remembered that scene as generic petals, and something that Rhaegar might have picked from the natural growth of TOJ, because Lyanna loved flowers, though roses are most associated with her.

Just my read.

Lol, you apparently had a better technique for preservation than I did, because my dried roses/flowers were awful.

[Ygrain]

BTW, has it been mentioned that if Lyanna really stayed at Harrenhall, you have a very convenient weirwood grove nearby, on the Isle of Faces? Harrenhall is at the northern shore of Gods Eye.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

BTW, has it been mentioned that if Lyanna really stayed at Harrenhall, you have a very convenient weirwood grove nearby, on the Isle of Faces? Harrenhall is at the northern shore of Gods Eye.

No but I think its the common belief that she was living other than Winterfell when she was kidnapped, and that's where she becamed acquainted with Rhaegar.

Some believe that Rickard wanted her to be a southron lady so that she could be married off to some good southern lord and cement relationships, which ended up being Robert

[Ygrain]

I can't remember, were they mentioned specifically as roses, or were Neds visions incorrect?

I thought I remembered that scene as generic petals, and something that Rhaegar might have picked from the natural growth of TOJ, because Lyanna loved flowers, though roses are most associated with her.

Just my read.

Lol, you apparently had a better technique for preservation than I did, because my dried roses/flowers were awful.

I never said they were pretty, did I? :-)

I'd have to check AGOT but I thought it was here when Ned reached for the roses and was hurt by the thorns. - It could all be purely symbolic, of course, I just thought that on her deathbed, she would clutch something with very specific value.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

BTW, has it been mentioned that if Lyanna really stayed at Harrenhall, you have a very convenient weirwood grove nearby, on the Isle of Faces? Harrenhall is at the northern shore of Gods Eye.

No but I think its the common belief that she was living other than Winterfell when she was kidnapped, and that's where she becamed acquainted with Rhaegar.

Some believe that Rickard wanted her to be a southron lady so that she could be married off to some good southern lord and cement relationships, which ended up being Robert

Yep, there is a contingent of posters who think she was "snatched" out of Harrenhal, even if it's not confirmed. Oswell Whent could have helped Rhaegar navigate the castle/area, his family being in possession of the castle. It also makes sense that Rhaegar would have only traveled to the Riverlands and back, and not hiked all the way up north and all the way back down.

And yes, the Isle of Faces would've been a perfect and convenient place to get hitched, northern-style.

[Eira Seren]

In his poppy dream, at the moment he and the KG begin to fight, Ned "could hear Lyanna screaming. Eddard!. . . a storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death" (425).

I assumed from this that the petals at the scene of her death were rose petals.

Also, in the Winterfell crypt (with Robert) Ned remembers: "He could hear her still at times, Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. . . when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. . . . (43-44). I figured that they were the same roses, aged and maybe also now bloodstained, from Harrenhal.

And I always thought that the weirwood's at Winterfell might have been conducive to a quick elopement, but the ones on the Isle of Faces would be even better, especially because of their history.

[Alia of the knife]

BTW, has it been mentioned that if Lyanna really stayed at Harrenhall, you have a very convenient weirwood grove nearby, on the Isle of Faces? Harrenhall is at the northern shore of Gods Eye.

I don't think it's stated in the text, but it would make the most sense.

And you'd have the Whent connection.

If Rhaegar stole away from KL, (on a supposed trek to Summerhall), back to Harrenhal to see Lyanna, he'd have the Whents to run interference, and give them privacy and descretion, therefore the kidnapping would not have been "of a sudden," but an ongoing relationship.

It's only when the clock wound down on her own nuptials, which was most likely preceeded by Brandons, that Rhaegar swooped in.

Or who knows, given the events of Harrenhal, perhaps Rickard and Robert moved the wedding up so that it would be a double ceremony like Jon Arryn to Lysa, and Ned to Cat

So, it would have been Brandon and Cat/ Robert and Lyanna, and thats why Dany remembered Rhaegar taking "his Northern girl," and hoped Daario would show up as she was on her way to her wedding.

[bobbyboy]

Also, in the Winterfell crypt (with Robert) Ned remembers: "He could hear her still at times, Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. . . when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. . . . (43-44). I figured that they were the same roses, aged and maybe also now bloodstained, from Harrenhal.

I think there's a clear analogy between Ned and Lyanna last moments together and what Aemon, unconsciously(because it's likely that Aemon doesn't suspect L+R=J) says to Jon while they're talking about Eddard:

“What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms . . . or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words."

[Ygrain]

I don't think it's stated in the text, but it would make the most sense.

And you'd have the Whent connection.

If Rhaegar stole away from KL, (on a supposed trek to Summerhall), back to Harrenhal to see Lyanna, he'd have the Whents to run interference, and give them privacy and descretion, therefore the kidnapping would not have been "of a sudden," but an ongoing relationship.

It's only when the clock wound down on her own nuptials, which was most likely preceeded by Brandons, that Rhaegar swooped in.

Or who knows, given the events of Harrenhal, perhaps Rickard and Robert moved the wedding up so that it would be a double ceremony like Jon Arryn to Lysa, and Ned to Cat

So, it would have been Brandon and Cat/ Robert and Lyanna, and thats why Dany remembered Rhaegar taking "his Northern girl," and hoped Daario would show up as she was on her way to her wedding.

An interesting idea, with the nuptials. We don't know when Lyanna's wedding was supposed to be, and though I don't think there would be a double ceremony (no mention of it anywhere, not even Cat's PoV, who would probably reminiscence on the similarity), I supposed it would take place quite soon after Brandon's.

I was wondering... from Bran's PoV, we know that the Isle of Faces is not regularly visited (Meera's account on how HR went there on his way to Harrenhall and met the green men), but would it be possible that Lyanna did go there? She was a Northerner, raised in the belief of Old Gods - wouldn't she want to visit such a sacred place? With her wolf blood, she definitely wouldn't be deterred by some stories or "trespassing forbidden" signs. This might turn out an important factor - if there was really the prophecy involved in her relationship with Rhaegar, the Isle of Faces could have been a source of some important information that persuaded her to take part, and it would not be such a stretch to assume that Rhaegar may have visited, as well. A more practical point would be that supposedly religious trips would provide a nice cover-up for secret meetings with Rhaegar, the Sansa-Dontos style.

[Cdubreezy]

On the Wylla topic: I don't think she has to have even ever claimed Jon was her son. Westerosi, and most people in general for that matter, tend to be incredible gossips. So who's to say they just came to the conclusion on their own and all of them claim that it was some different woman that the honorable Ned Stark lost control of himself with? It fits with the way that most information seems to travel. Which is by word of mouth. And I don't know if anyone ever played the telephone game as children, but that kind of information exchange becomes rapidly unreliable.

Just my two cents.

[Buried Treasure]

Wylla may not necessarily have been protecting Jon / Lyanna. If she was a servant at Starfell for a long time before the events of Robert's rebellion her loyalty may have been to Ashara. So Ashara may have asked her to claim the child as her own, or alternatively maybe she took it upon herself to protect Ashara's honour when rumours that Ashara had a bastard started spreading.

Another point against this fictional theory is clearly pointed out in the first book Game of Thrones. So many of you think "Ned kept it a secret because he thought Robert would flip out and kill the baby."

I disagree with this. We all saw in Game of Thrones, the first book how shocked and disgusted Ned was when he found out Robert wanted to assassinate Dany. Ned was like wtf? I fought 2 wars for you Robert and now you gonna try and kill a 12 year old girl and expect me to support you? That's bullshit Robert. The man I fought with and won two wars with wouldn't do that. Ned was shocked and disgusted Robert would think of killing a child. Even though that child was Dany and a Targeryan and a possible future threat to the throne.

I've personnally never thought it was a dead certainty that Robert would flip out if he knew the truth of Jon's parentage. He afterall didn't order the killing of Aegon and Rhaenys - and only ordered Dany's death years later when he was gone to ruin & had less illusions about being a hero figure. Ned himself may not have thought that Robert would insist on killing Jon - nor even Lyanna if she was thinking about it rationally. But she was dying, and the one thought on her mind was 'protect my child' so a promise of secrecy isn't suprising.