R+L=J v.23

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

:laugh: Awesome.

Someone got it omgz. :bowdown:

[King Doug]

I don't remember, but if that's the case and their bodies aren't even there, it just corroborates Eddward Stark's opinion that Brandon's tomb is there more as a way to make Lyanna's more acceptable in a cover-up story.

Ned is our honorable guy; what if among Lyanna's last request was that he give her son this mysterious object to remind him of his Targaryen ancestry? Unlikely, sure, but not impossible, especially when we remember in Ned's last chapter his guilt over "broken promises". Lyanna asked something of him that he didn't fully fulfill, that much is certain; what is was, well... speculations are legitimate here ^.~

Crackpot: what if whatever is hidden in the crypts is not a sword, an egg, a letter, but simply Rhaegar's harp? (that was the instrument he played, wasn't it?)

eta: and anyway, hiding whatever it was in the crypts is not that dangerous; in fact, it's probably the safest place he could find in Winterfell. Who would open those tombs and why?

There is more speculation of Rhaegar's Harp. When Brienne was on the quiet isle, there was someone playing a harp. And some have speculated that the harp was a gift from Rhaegar to let him and Lyanna chillax there.

Did anyone ever watch Legends of the Hidden Temple on Nickelodeon? This is like, Legends of the Stark Crypts. "Your task today is to retrieve .... the harp of Rhaegar Targaryen! But beware of old stone kings lurking about."

Anyone? Bueller?

I laughed quite heartily at this. I LOVED THAT SHOW!!! I think two of the teams were even wolves and dragons (or maybe it was snakes, but I'm gonna say dragons).

[Howling Mad]

Thought about this last night. GRRM has stated in recent interviews that all of the Stark children are wargs. He even made a joke about Lady being replaced with a direturtle. Presumably, all of the Stark children refer to Eddard Stark's children: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon. However where does this leave Jon? Jon is clearly a warg so does this support Ned has Jon's father and discredit R+L=J? We know the odds of being a warg are somewhere like 1:1000 and a greensear 1:10¹⁰ (emphasis added ^_^ ). What then would be the odds of both Ned and Lyanna having the dominate warg gene to pass along?

[Howling Mad]

BTW Legends of the Hidden Temple was great familly TV B)

[Eddward Stark]

and anyway, hiding whatever it was in the crypts is not that dangerous; in fact, it's probably the safest place he could find in Winterfell. Who would open those tombs and why?

I agree; no one would open a tomb, right? A tomb with no body (if that's the case) would be a great place to hide something. A birth certificate may not have to be like those of today. It could be a couple dozen sealed letters from Rhaegar claiming Lyanna's child as his trueborn, for the purpose of distributing by raven throughout the realm, at the appropriate time...who knows?

Maybe Ned's broken promise was that he would tell Jon the truth when he came of age, and that couldn't happen.

Crackpot theory: I know everyone's pretty much shot this down already, but the letter that Ned may or may not have given to Varys could simply say "Hey Jon, go live out that recurring dream you once told me about. <3 your 'father.' Wink wink," thus making the letter very low risk.

[Eddward Stark]

Thought about this last night. GRRM has stated in recent interviews that all of the Stark children are wargs. He even made a joke about Lady being replaced with a direturtle. Presumably, all of the Stark children refer to Eddard Stark's children: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon. However where does this leave Jon? Jon is clearly a warg so does this support Ned has Jon's father and discredit R+L=J? We know the odds of being a warg are somewhere like 1:1000 and a greensear 1:10¹⁰ (emphasis added ^_^ ). What then would be the odds of both Ned and Lyanna having the dominate warg gene to pass along?

I think it was 1:10⁶ for a greenseer (one in a thousand thousand, i.e. million).

I presume GRRM meant the whole generation of Stark children, on the mother's side or father's side, and also didn't want to give away Jon's parentage. Plus, the world is changing. Magic is becoming more powerful again. I think the Old Gods had a hand to play in this, so it wasn't just by chance.

[Lady Octarina]

Not familiar with this one, but Deltora Quest comes in mind, with a hidden and swapped heir, and The Last Airbender, who has to restore balance in the world :D

Funny you should mention; since I read AGoT I see Jon Snow as a dark-haired Lief O.o

I can see Jon´s face at the moment when Ned would hand him a harp, stating: "Here is a gift from your father, Jon." Before he would tell him about Rhaegar. What would Jon think? :D

Tomb appears to be a safe place, but as I said, one never knows what can happen. What if the Crypts met the same fate as the First Keep? The tombstone could crack, and require replacement/reconstruction. The workers could find it then.

Oh, that would be a funny scene

:laugh:

Well, yes, but what are the chances the crypts would fall and need to be rebuilt during Jon's lifetime?

There is more speculation of Rhaegar's Harp. When Brienne was on the quiet isle, there was someone playing a harp. And some have speculated that the harp was a gift from Rhaegar to let him and Lyanna chillax there.

Yes, I remember that, it led me to believe, for a while, that Rhaegar was alive and hidden in that isle. I'd say, since it's so close to the place where he died, there's as much chance he would have given it to someone in exchange of some mysterious favor as there is he would have left it with Lyanna as a reminder of him while he was away fighting. 50/50

I think it was 1:10⁶ for a greenseer (one in a thousand thousand, i.e. million).

I presume GRRM meant the whole generation of Stark children, on the mother's side or father's side, and also didn't want to give away Jon's parentage. Plus, the world is changing. Magic is becoming more powerful again. I think the Old Gods had a hand to play in this, so it wasn't just by chance.

Not to mention that the gene could also have come from Jon's Targ blood - there's at least Bloodraven as a warg, and Aegon V's older brother and one of the Blackfyres had those prophetic dreams. Which might be the reason why other wargs recognize a powerful magic within Jon.

[Alia of the knife]

I remember that thread! There was some good discussion there.

I don't think Rhaegar fathered a child on Ashara (why do you think it was him Jem?) I think he was too busy at Harrenhal falling in love with Lyanna and not acting on it out of respect for his marriage and her betrothal.

I also don't think Rhaegar was in on a potential Ashara - Elia baby switch. I think Elia would have done it because she was desperate, she knew how much he wanted a son and she felt she was losing him. Further speculation; maybe Rhaegar found out later and the upset he felt was what prompted him to act so irrationally as to take Lyanna and disappear for many months.

Agreed.

The problem I have with Rhaegar and Ashara is, I suppose from a literary standpoint, what would be the point, or end game here?

What plot device, or purpose would this new, and very complicated story line bring, as Rhaegar still has some explaining to do with Lyanna?

While I do think there will be a deconstruction of Rhaegars character, (especially the way Dany hero-worships him), and question the mysterious nature of Lyannas feelings in all this, I do by and large think he is a positive character.

And I think that R and A would take his character to truly unsympathetic.

Just a few things.

I noted that disussion said Ashara danced with several men, and Martin probably means for these individuals to be the possible suspects, but I also noted that discussion stated one of them was a Dragon, Rhaegar, but that was not correct. Rhaegar did not dance with Ashara.

They were:

A Griffin, (JonCon- not likely the Father).

A Red Snake, (Oberyn)

A white coat, (Possibly Elias Uncle who was a KG, but who also kept a paramour).

A Quiet Wolf, (Ned), but only on the request of Brandon, who she most likely became "acquainted" with.

Ashara was also a member of a Dornish House known for it's honor, and first and foremost, Bannermen to the Martels and owe them their loyalty.

Also, why wait until Harrenhal?

They were already a clique' at Court, so if Rhaegar wanted to engage in that, then he already would have, and most likely all the KG, including Selmy would have known, because there is no reason for Rhaegar to hide his affairs- the KG guard, not judge.

Aerys didn't hide his behavior.

I also tend to think Elia was already pregnant at the time of Harrenhal, perhaps in the early stages, but nonetheless, at that point, Rhaegar didn't know that this child would be his last.

(Though, I can see the possibility that Elia had miscarriages before, and their marriage was becoming strained under the pressure, but I think he would be more apt to set her aside than engage in the kind of subterfuge).

Also, the level of that kind of baby switching would need all kinds of privacy, and they had less privacy then than now, with all eyes on them, and probably many of them not friendly no matter how pleasant Elia was.

It would involve the Maester too which I doubt he'd give Elia Martel more loyalty than Rhaegar Targaryen.

I tend to think Rhaegar fell hard and fairly quick for Lyanna. The way Selmy says, "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna...." just the possessiveness of that statement suggests to me that perhaps it may have been obvious to many.

There is also an interesting scene in a Jon POV where he is thinking about his relationship with Ygritte, and wonders if his "Father" felt the same shame and ectasy, (paraphrasing), in his Mothers bed.

Of course he's thinking of Ned, but this could be a look back into what we'll see as some guilt on Rhaegars part for betraying his vows to Elia, though it was a political marriage and he made no claims to love Elia.

As to why Ashara might turn to a Stark,(Ned), his Brother Brandon would be the common denominator between the two, and while Ned might be resentful of perhaps Brandon and Ashara,(and there is a hint of what might be resentment in his statement to Cat about everything being meant for Brandon), he'd still remain the loyal Brother, but be sympathetic to Ashara.

If Rhaegar, or anyone else did this to her, Ashara would hardly confide in a man, and one she had just met.

So, I guess IMHO, the Rhaegar and Ashara theory is just too too much, with Lyanna thrown into that mix as well.

Now, if there WAS a Targaryen likely to dishonor Ashara, I'd put my money on Aerys.

That also might be a reason why Arthur Dayne, an honorable KG chose to engage in a speculated coup with Rhaegar, playing at politics, something KG aren't supposed to do as I don't think just being Rhaegars best friend is reason enough as R would be King one day in due time.

I tend towards Aegon being a Blackfyre given the signifigance of Bloodravens presence, and the emphasis on the Golden Company, or somehow descended from Aerion Brightflame and a female Blackfyre as that blood would be the only kind good enough for him to marry, even if it's illigitimate.

He did leave behind a legitimate son, who was passed over in the succession.

So, he's a dragon, just not Rhaegars, and given Varys sowing dissention between Rhaella, Rhaegar,(who were supposed to be good for the realm), and Aerys, I speculate he's working from within for the Blackfyre cause, and he can still think he's doing well for the realm if he believes the Blackfyres to be better.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

Thought about this last night. GRRM has stated in recent interviews that all of the Stark children are wargs. He even made a joke about Lady being replaced with a direturtle. Presumably, all of the Stark children refer to Eddard Stark's children: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon. However where does this leave Jon? Jon is clearly a warg so does this support Ned has Jon's father and discredit R+L=J? We know the odds of being a warg are somewhere like 1:1000 and a greensear 1:10¹⁰ (emphasis added ^_^ ). What then would be the odds of both Ned and Lyanna having the dominate warg gene to pass along?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Borders_Signing_Oregon/

Seems to me like there's no real genes to pass on as much as there is some reeeaaallllyyy basic genetics. More of a bloodline kind of thing, instead of alleles and dominant/recessive traits

[Jem]

I remember that thread! There was some good discussion there.

I don't think Rhaegar fathered a child on Ashara (why do you think it was him Jem?) I think he was too busy at Harrenhal falling in love with Lyanna and not acting on it out of respect for his marriage and her betrothal.

I also don't think Rhaegar was in on a potential Ashara - Elia baby switch. I think Elia would have done it because she was desperate, she knew how much he wanted a son and she felt she was losing him. Further speculation; maybe Rhaegar found out later and the upset he felt was what prompted him to act so irrationally as to take Lyanna and disappear for many months.

For the record, I don't really think it was Rhaegar, it was just another idea I was floating. And at Harrenhal, I think Rhaegar was more busy playing politics to "fall in love" with Lyanna. Plus, I also don't think Rhaegar was in on a potential Ashara-Elia baby switch, I never said that.

But for interest sake, lets imagine this scenario. Elia was a political marriage for Rhaegar, he didn't love her, though he probably did like her. Elia was sick for a long time after the birth of each of her children. After she gave birth to Rhaenys, she was probably worried that Rhaegar was going to throw her over. To make matters worse, Tywin Lannister had his hot young daughter at court, both of them just waiting to swoop in on Rhaegar the minute Elia fell down dead. To keep Rhaegar from straying, Elia may have engaged the assistance of her friend Ashara. She may have asked Ashara to keep Rhaegar company, escort him to balls, go out riding with him, that sort of thing. And the agreement may or may not have extended to keeping Rhaegar entertained in the bedroom. From Elia's perspective, it would be better to have Rhaegar running around with a woman she trusts than to have him fall into the clutches of someone like Cersei Lannister. So I am thinking that there may have been an 'understanding' between Elia and Ashara and Rhaegar.

[Alia of the knife]

Did anyone ever watch Legends of the Hidden Temple on Nickelodeon? This is like, Legends of the Stark Crypts. "Your task today is to retrieve .... the harp of Rhaegar Targaryen! But beware of old stone kings lurking about."

Anyone? Bueller?

Watching that now, (Ferris Bueller that is).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thought about this last night. GRRM has stated in recent interviews that all of the Stark children are wargs. He even made a joke about Lady being replaced with a direturtle. Presumably, all of the Stark children refer to Eddard Stark's children: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon. However where does this leave Jon? Jon is clearly a warg so does this support Ned has Jon's father and discredit R+L=J? We know the odds of being a warg are somewhere like 1:1000 and a greensear 1:10¹⁰ (emphasis added ^_^ ). What then would be the odds of both Ned and Lyanna having the dominate warg gene to pass along?

I don't think it disproves R+L=J. It seems like the Stark wargs of this generation were helped along "magically." That's why there are so many of them despite the almost literal impossibility. Something else is at work there and it's not just genetics. But even if it were, no reason why a brother and a sister couldn't both pass it on.

[Lady Octarina]

I noted that disussion said Ashara danced with several men, and Martin probably means for these individuals to be the possible suspects, but I also noted that discussion stated one of them was a Dragon, Rhaegar, but that was not correct. Rhaegar did not dance with Ashara.

They were:

A Griffin, (JonCon- not likely the Father).

A Red Snake, (Oberyn)

A white coat, (Possibly Elias Uncle who was a KG, but who also kept a paramour).

A Quiet Wolf, (Ned), but only on the request of Brandon, who she most likely became "acquainted" with.

Allow me one irrelevant comment: I don't think all the men she danced with at Harrenhall are supposed to be the suspects for fathering her bastard. So, I still go with the hypothesis that the white coat she danced with was simply her brother, since it seems to have been a common practice in the past to dance with family members on such occasions; though, after learning of Barristan's feelings for her, it's always possible he was brave enough to ask her for that one, platonic dance.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

Did anyone ever watch Legends of the Hidden Temple on Nickelodeon? This is like, Legends of the Stark Crypts. "Your task today is to retrieve .... the harp of Rhaegar Targaryen! But beware of old stone kings lurking about."

Anyone? Bueller?

OMG that one was of my favorite shows as a kid, I loved the talking olmec talking head. So boss

[Alia of the knife]

Allow me one irrelevant comment: I don't think all the men she danced with at Harrenhall are supposed to be the suspects for fathering her bastard. So, I still go with the hypothesis that the white coat she danced with was simply her brother, since it seems to have been a common practice in the past to dance with family members on such occasions; though, after learning of Barristan's feelings for her, it's always possible he was brave enough to ask her for that one, platonic dance.

Just one? :)

No, after I wrote that, I thought the same, but I was thinking of the serial mysteries Martin probably watched as a child in the theaters.

But, it probably was Arthur, or Selmy.