R+L=J v.23

[Corm]

It was in ADWD, Barristan is thinking about her

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her

laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders

and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at

him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …

Sometimes fair can mean beautiful or light skinned

[Ygrain]

I have a very different theory: B + A = J

I think that Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne are Jon's parents. I think that Brandon fell in love with Ashara, even though he was betrothed to Catelyn. I also think it's likely that Ashara was of Targaryen blood, because she was blond with violet eyes. If they had married before Brandon's death, it would make Jon not only the rightful heir of Winterfell, but a possible contender for the throne. Ned has kept it secret for several reasons. One, it was dishonorable behavior on Brandon's part; two, he wanted to spare Catelyn the humiliation; and three, to protect Jon because anyone with Targaryen blood is a target of the Baratheon throne.

I agree that there was probably something going on with Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I don't think it has anything to do with Jon. Has anyone else noticed what precious little information has been provided regarding Brandon?

I am afraid it wouldn't work, even if the timelines fit.

Silver hair and purple eyes are not an exclusively Targaryen trait, they are quite common e.g. around Lys, and in some parts of Dorne.

If Brandon secretly married Ashara, how would he proceed with the marriage to Catelyn, which would have happened in a couple of days, had he not learned about Lyanna? That would be a situation leading to an even more catastrophic outcome than the Red Wedding.

Not everyone possessing Targaryen blood is a target - mind you, the Martells live perfectly unharrassed. Besides, looking at the Targ family tree, I don't see any connection with the Daynes.

I do agree with two points - that Ned would go to great lengths to protect a family member, and that we know very little about Brandon. On the other hand, we don't know exactly very much about Lyanna, either.

[Alia of the knife]

On the subject of the blue roses and their imagry, the only thing that gives me pause about them is their reputed legend, which may also foreshadow the nature of R+L relationship, which I go back and forth about.

This:

" Blue roses symbolize mystery, or something desired, but unattainable. An individual experiencing un-requited love could present a blue rose to his/her object of affection."

"Can denote regal majesty."

"Something of a fairytale the meaning of this rose is unattainable and impossible. This is not a good gift to give somone you want a longterm relationship with."

I know the color blue is often associated with the imagry of ice, cold, winter, etc. but Martin also could be employing a double entendre here.

Certainly Lyanna, for all intents and purposes is unattainable for Rhaegar given her high rank, (he could never take her as a mere mistress), and the fact she's betrothed to someone else, and whether she did actually love him is still speculation.

(She may not have loved either Robert, or Rhaegar).

And when Ned remembers the crowning he remembers the cruel thorns beneath those roses.

People can be kidnapped.

Tyrion was kidnapped by Caitlyn, and while he was a dwarf, he nonetheless was a fairly formiddable fighter when he had to.

Lyanna may have agreed to go "willingly" so as to spare the life of her men who may have tried to protect her, (it was said Rhaegar took her at swordpoint, and was probably not alone).

I think it's possible for Lyanna to have loved Rhaegar, but not want to compromise her honor, or her family's.

I think it is possible that Lyanna may have been Rhaegars madness in the way Johanna Lannister and impisonment was for Aerys, and thus it's possible Robert may have been closer to the truth than people give him credit for.

If Rhaegar loved her, then he most likely would not see what he was doing as rape, because, if he could justify taking her, whether it was a mutual elopement, or not, leaving Elia and his children behind, then he most likely could justify everything else that followed.

And if prophesy is a driving force, then it's all the more likely that perhaps taking her was not mutual, and the utter silence on anything about her, even from the likes of Caitlyn, makes me a little nervous, because there should at least be some condemnation, blaming her for everything, (as would likely happen in real history), from Rhaegars circle who would not believe ill of him.

Many people believe this is not consistent with Rhaegars honorable character, but there are many bad characters that have their moments of goodness, so it's not impossible to believe that a good person could have his moment of doing something bad.

Everyone remembers Rhaegar wanting the "wolf girl," ("Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it,"- Selmy).

But, no one, even Selmy remembers her wanting him, and maybe that is because we haven't heard from the right people yet, but even in Neds private thoughts, he doesn't indicate anything pointing to her loving Rhaegar, and I think his silence on Rhaegar should not be misconstrued as a positive, because he also still loves Robert, which in his thoughts, he does declare.

I know thats not popular, and for myself, I personally believe they did love one another and leaving together was mutual, but there really is no way to make their story not a sad tale, no matter what the circumstances were, because it was so complicated, so I'm approaching it with caution.

Thoughts?

[Darth Rivers]

Hey guys you know what'd be awesome, and original?

If the others killed everyone. That'd be a nice and logical ending - people dying out because of their failure to unite.

[jon's_mom]

The only prophecy I've known to work in the series is Maggie the Frog's prophecy about Cercei. All other prophecies turn out to be total bullshit. Like look at "The Stallion Who Mounts The World". Didn't happen. There are also several other examples of it, like the red comet in the sky. Everyone in the book seems to think it relates to them somehow, when in "reality" it was probably just a comet in the sky.

When looking deeply into the song of ice and fire you can see several examples of GRRM basically playing the reader. He almost does it mockingly. R+L=J is his masterstroke, he wants you to believe it, just so later on he can reveal that in fact Jon was born from Eddard and some insignificant woman.

Looking into blue rose prophecies is kind of funny. It proves you have fallen into GRRM's trap.

Jon is the son of Eddard and some other woman not important to the overall story. Sorry to break that to you, that's just the facts.

[Dragonfish]

The only prophecy I've known to work in the series is Maggie the Frog's prophecy about Cercei. All other prophecies turn out to be total bullshit.

This is not even remotely true. There have been numerous prophecies in the books that have come true. Off the top of my head, there's the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies involving a "maid at a feast with purple serpeants in her hair" (Sansa at Joffrey's wedding) and "a woman who was a fish" floating down a river before reawakening (Catelyn being revived after the Red Wedding), as well as Patchface's prophecies involving the Red Wedding, and a few prophecies from the House of the Undying. So if anything, the failure of the "Stallion Who Mounts the World" prophecy to come true is the exception, not the rule.

Anyway, none of this really matters as far as R+L=J goes, because the theory does not rely on prophecies at all. The blue rose vision is certainly rather suggestive, but the theory would be strong even without that piece of evidence. So at the end of the day, your objection is rather pointless.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The only prophecy I've known to work in the series is Maggie the Frog's prophecy about Cercei. All other prophecies turn out to be total bullshit. Like look at "The Stallion Who Mounts The World". Didn't happen. There are also several other examples of it, like the red comet in the sky. Everyone in the book seems to think it relates to them somehow, when in "reality" it was probably just a comet in the sky.

When looking deeply into the song of ice and fire you can see several examples of GRRM basically playing the reader. He almost does it mockingly. R+L=J is his masterstroke, he wants you to believe it, just so later on he can reveal that in fact Jon was born from Eddard and some insignificant woman.

Looking into blue rose prophecies is kind of funny. It proves you have fallen into GRRM's trap.

Jon is the son of Eddard and some other woman not important to the overall story. Sorry to break that to you, that's just the facts.

Like Dragonfish said, your statement about prophecies not coming true is absolutely incorrect.

There are instances of GRRM playing the reader, yeah. Namely when he says that Jon's mother is Wylla or Ashara or some White Harbor fisherman's daughter.

[Milcov]

The only prophecy I've known to work in the series is Maggie the Frog's prophecy about Cercei. All other prophecies turn out to be total bullshit. Like look at "The Stallion Who Mounts The World". Didn't happen. There are also several other examples of it, like the red comet in the sky. Everyone in the book seems to think it relates to them somehow, when in "reality" it was probably just a comet in the sky.

When looking deeply into the song of ice and fire you can see several examples of GRRM basically playing the reader. He almost does it mockingly. R+L=J is his masterstroke, he wants you to believe it, just so later on he can reveal that in fact Jon was born from Eddard and some insignificant woman.

Looking into blue rose prophecies is kind of funny. It proves you have fallen into GRRM's trap.

Jon is the son of Eddard and some other woman not important to the overall story. Sorry to break that to you, that's just the facts.

Thanks for that. Saved me a lot of time.

[Corm]

Well this page shows all of the prophecies and a lot of them have turned out to be true http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/

Even one you mentioned right there. One person said that the red comet means dragons, lo and behold, there were dragons. That's not to say I'm 100% behind all the prophecies but they do seem to come true for the most part.

[jon's_mom]

As I said about the red comet, people can make any event fit their beliefs if they want. I don't know how to quote properly so I'll just put your words in quotation marks.

"there's the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies involving a "maid at a feast with purple serpeants in her hair" (Sansa at Joffrey's wedding)"

umm really? Sansa wore a hair net with poison baubles attached to it. I suppose if you squint your eyes and hold your breath that prophecy is bang on.

""a woman who was a fish" floating down a river before reawakening (Catelyn being revived after the Red Wedding)"

*facepalm* your stretching things now. It's like I said about the red comet. The people in the book all make out like it relates to their lives. This is GRRM mocking the reader, and in this case, you.

You take extremely vague statements and make out like it's a prophecy come true. How the hell is a "woman who is a fish" Catelyn Stark? Oh let me guess, well Catelyn was a Tully who's house sigil is a fish so that must mean it refers to Catelyn!

GRRM doesn't roll that way. Whenever you read too much into something you misinterpret GRRM. Like when I read the books I thought Robb was going to be a big hero, I mean afterall he had the wolf to protect him. Then GRRM shat on my head and killed him. I also thought Dany would return to Westeros and save the day, as it is, she just hangs out across the sea trying to have sex with 40 year old men.

As for Jon and his parentage, (I don't know why I'm saying this because you'll just ignore it) his father is Ned. His mother is.... i dunno, but someone not significant. Robert asked and Ned said who the mother was. Other northerners know Ned was shagging some chick on a boat. We've been told, time and time again that Ned is the father, yet so many of the readers just don't accept it.

It frustrates the heck out of me, why can't people just accept the reality that Ned is the father? It's fucken bullshit.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"there's the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies involving a "maid at a feast with purple serpeants in her hair" (Sansa at Joffrey's wedding)"

umm really? Sansa wore a hair net with poison baubles attached to it. I suppose if you squint your eyes and hold your breath that prophecy is bang on.

Um ... yes? Do you not understand how symbolism works?

""a woman who was a fish" floating down a river before reawakening (Catelyn being revived after the Red Wedding)"

*facepalm* your stretching things now. It's like I said about the red comet. The people in the book all make out like it relates to their lives. This is GRRM mocking the reader, and in this case, you.

You take extremely vague statements and make out like it's a prophecy come true. How the hell is a "woman who is a fish" Catelyn Stark? Oh let me guess, well Catelyn was a Tully who's house sigil is a fish so that must mean it refers to Catelyn!

That's pretty much exactly what it means.

GRRM doesn't roll that way. Whenever you read too much into something you misinterpret GRRM. Like when I read the books I thought Robb was going to be a big hero, I mean afterall he had the wolf to protect him. Then GRRM shat on my head and killed him. I also thought Dany would return to Westeros and save the day, as it is, she just hangs out across the sea trying to have sex with 40 year old men.

He does roll that way, because he does. And if you actually paid attention to certain things — say, some prophecies — in the story, Robb's death wouldn't have been that shocking to you, seeing as it was telegraphed a mile away. I don't think it's an issue of us reading too much into stuff, it's you not reading into it enough. And if those prophecies aren't significant — if Sansa isn't the maid with purple serpents and Catelyn isn't the woman who's a fish — what's the point of including them? Martin isn't a troll.

As for Jon and his parentage, (I don't know why I'm saying this because you'll just ignore it) his father is Ned. His mother is.... i dunno, but someone not significant. Robert asked and Ned said who the mother was. Other northerners know Ned was shagging some chick on a boat. We've been told, time and time again that Ned is the father, yet so many of the readers just don't accept it.

It frustrates the heck out of me, why can't people just accept the reality that Ned is the father? It's fucken bullshit.

We don't "accept the reality" because it's not the reality.

[Sasha Steelsong]

As I said about the red comet, people can make any event fit their beliefs if they want. I don't know how to quote properly so I'll just put your words in quotation marks.

"there's the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies involving a "maid at a feast with purple serpeants in her hair" (Sansa at Joffrey's wedding)"

umm really? Sansa wore a hair net with poison baubles attached to it. I suppose if you squint your eyes and hold your breath that prophecy is bang on.

Yes actually. In literature that is generally how symbolism works. Something is used to suggest something else by virtue of a symbolic connection. Hell the first chapter has a pretty big symbolic moment in it with the dead stag and dire wolf with only the pups surviving. And look by the end of the book the stag is dead (Robert) the direwolf is dead (Ned) and the pups (Robb, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon) are still alive.

""a woman who was a fish" floating down a river before reawakening (Catelyn being revived after the Red Wedding)"

*facepalm* your stretching things now. It's like I said about the red comet. The people in the book all make out like it relates to their lives. This is GRRM mocking the reader, and in this case, you.

You take extremely vague statements and make out like it's a prophecy come true. How the hell is a "woman who is a fish" Catelyn Stark? Oh let me guess, well Catelyn was a Tully who's house sigil is a fish so that must mean it refers to Catelyn!

First off it isn't a vague statement that someone is making into a prophecy. It is a part of a prophecy that someone is making. And yes again since you seem to be missing the very basic definition of symbolism...that is exactly what it is. A woman who was a fish is precisely Cately Stark because she once was a fish as much as Tryion is a Lion cause he is a Lannister,

GRRM doesn't roll that way. Whenever you read too much into something you misinterpret GRRM. Like when I read the books I thought Robb was going to be a big hero, I mean afterall he had the wolf to protect him. Then GRRM shat on my head and killed him. I also thought Dany would return to Westeros and save the day, as it is, she just hangs out across the sea trying to have sex with 40 year old men.

Well frankly all this shows is how inattentively you read the books. Robb's death was tragic but you actually thought a character without a main POV was going to be the hero of the story and win it all? Really? Cause I saw Robb's death coming (though not in that way) a whole book away. Dany may still return to Westeros to save the day but if that does happen it was always going to happen towards the end of the series, and as the series isn't anywhere near over (even if it was originally planned as a trilogy) the fact that it hasn't happened yet should hardly be surprising.

As for Jon and his parentage, (I don't know why I'm saying this because you'll just ignore it) his father is Ned. His mother is.... i dunno, but someone not significant. Robert asked and Ned said who the mother was. Other northerners know Ned was shagging some chick on a boat. We've been told, time and time again that Ned is the father, yet so many of the readers just don't accept it.

It frustrates the heck out of me, why can't people just accept the reality that Ned is the father? It's fucken bullshit.

Then why create the question to begin with? Seriously if Jon's mother was no one of importance then there was no reason for GRRM to create the question around Jon's mother to begin with but he does and RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING of the story. As a writer it makes no sense to do that if the answer doesn't matter because your audience will want the question answered. GRRM has also said that the issue of whom Jon's mother is will be revealed towards the end of the series so clearly he doesn't think she is of no importance. Finally despite the numerous people who seem to think this GRRM is not writing this series just to be able to say "fuck you" to fans, so again he's not going to create a question that has a lame answer just to be able to say to the fans "nah-nah I fooled you!!"

People can't accept the "reality" that Ned is Jon's father because it doesn't make sense given all the details we've been given. That "reality" only makes sense if you ignore all the other quesitons and take it at face value.

[Dragonfish]

As I said about the red comet, people can make any event fit their beliefs if they want. I don't know how to quote properly so I'll just put your words in quotation marks.

"there's the Ghost of High Heart's prophecies involving a "maid at a feast with purple serpeants in her hair" (Sansa at Joffrey's wedding)"

umm really? Sansa wore a hair net with poison baubles attached to it. I suppose if you squint your eyes and hold your breath that prophecy is bang on.

""a woman who was a fish" floating down a river before reawakening (Catelyn being revived after the Red Wedding)"

*facepalm* your stretching things now. It's like I said about the red comet. The people in the book all make out like it relates to their lives. This is GRRM mocking the reader, and in this case, you.

Apparently you've never heard of metaphor and symbolism.

As for Jon and his parentage, (I don't know why I'm saying this because you'll just ignore it) his father is Ned. His mother is.... i dunno, but someone not significant. Robert asked and Ned said who the mother was. Other northerners know Ned was shagging some chick on a boat. We've been told, time and time again that Ned is the father, yet so many of the readers just don't accept it.

If Ned is Jon's father, then that leaves a lot of questions unresolved. Why won't Ned tell Jon or Catelyn who the mother is, if it's someone as insignificant as Wylla? Why is he so haunted by the promises he made to Lyanna? Why does he feel he has "lived lies" for the past fourteen years? And perhaps most importantly, why would George even bother to make this such a big mystery if the answer is so mundane? R+L=J answers all of these questions, while N+W=J does not.

Oh, and by the way, you do realize that the part of your post I've bolded is contradictory, right? Ned tells Robert Wylla is the mother, sure, but he also says that in fathering Jon he dishonored Catelyn while she was pregnant with his child. Yet according to Lord Godric's story to Davos, Ned conceived Jon before he even met Catelyn. In other words, Ned's own words demonstrate that Godric is wrong, so you can't really use his story as evidence.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh, and by the way, you do realize that the part of your post I've bolded is contradictory, right? Ned tells Robert Wylla is the mother, sure, but he also says that in fathering Jon he dishonored Catelyn while she was pregnant with his child. Yet according to Lord Godric's story to Davos, Ned conceived Jon before he even met Catelyn. In other words, Ned's own words demonstrate that Godric is wrong, so you can't really use his story as evidence.

It's hilarious that he's snarking on us for getting trolled by Martin when he's the one who fell for the obviously BS stories about Jon's "mother."

[Dragonfish]

It's hilarious that he's snarking on us for getting trolled by Martin when he's the one who fell for the obviously BS stories about Jon's "mother."

Yes, and it's times like these I wish George would just come out and say "Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents" so that I wouldn't have to deal with people like jon's_mom anymore.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, and it's times like these I wish George would just come out and say "Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents" so that I wouldn't have to deal with people like jon's_mom anymore.

That's the same way I feel about the fireproof Targaryen unicorn. Hell, Martin said they're not fireproof and people still believe it.

[jon's_mom]

Apparently you've never heard of metaphor and symbolism.

If Ned is Jon's father, then that leaves a lot of questions unresolved. Why won't Ned tell Jon or Catelyn who the mother is, if it's someone as insignificant as Wylla? Why is he so haunted by the promises he made to Lyanna? Why does he feel he has "lived lies" for the past fourteen years? And perhaps most importantly, why would George even bother to make this such a big mystery if the answer is so mundane? R+L=J answers all of these questions, while N+W=J does not.

Oh, and by the way, you do realize that the part of your post I've bolded is contradictory, right? Ned tells Robert Wylla is the mother, sure, but he also says that in fathering Jon he dishonored Catelyn while she was pregnant with his child. Yet according to Lord Godric's story to Davos, Ned conceived Jon before he even met Catelyn. In other words, Ned's own words demonstrate that Godric is wrong, so you can't really use his story as evidence.

Ned doesn't tell Catelyn and Co about it because he's Ned. Like imagine Ned having sex with some "lowly" maid or whatever. He can't marry her and he has to leave her, but because of his honor, he won't talk negatively about her to anyone.

You talking about Jon being conceived before Ned met Catelyn is bullshit. It's like I said, you read too deeply into stuff and look for meanings where there aren't any. I never said I knew who the mother was or when Jon was conceived, i just said I know Ned is the father. You saying there is no proof for Ned being the father shows that you take these forums evidence more serioursly than actual book evidence.

In A Dance of Dragons GRRM spells out once again that Ned is Jon's dad, but alll noooo, that character doesn't know all the facts in your mind.

I've read all 5 books 3 times from start to finish, I think Ned is the dad. Sorry if this makes you think I'm stupid or whatever, I've read all the facts several times and believe Ned is the father.

I haven't even gone into the tv series which gives more evidence to Ned being the dad.

[The guy from the Vale]

OK, just two questions then: Why does Ned never refer to Jon as his son in his own thoughts? And why does he tell Catelyn that Jon is "his blood" and not, way less ambiguous, that he's his son?

[Dragonfish]

Ned doesn't tell Catelyn and Co about it because he's Ned. Like imagine Ned having sex with some "lowly" maid or whatever. He can't marry her and he has to leave her, but because of his honor, he won't talk negatively about her to anyone.

Don't buy it. Ned is only hurting Catelyn and Jon more by refusing to mention the mother. Doesn't make sense that he wouldn't tell them.

Oh, and you ignored all my other questions.

You talking about Jon being conceived before Ned met Catelyn is bullshit. It's like I said, you read too deeply into stuff and look for meanings where there aren't any. I never said I knew who the mother was or when Jon was conceived, i just said I know Ned is the father. You saying there is no proof for Ned being the father shows that you take these forums evidence more serioursly than actual book evidence.

Uh, pretty much all the evidence for R+L=J comes from the book. Most of it is laid out in this essay, which I'm guessing you know nothing about.

In A Dance of Dragons GRRM spells out once again that Ned is Jon's dad, but alll noooo, that character doesn't know all the facts in your mind.

No, it is a fact that the character doesn't know what he's talking about, unless for some reason Ned is lying about fathering Jon after he met Catelyn. This is, incidentally, evidence that comes from the book, which makes your claim that you are following "book evidence" a bit laughable.

I've read all 5 books 3 times from start to finish, I think Ned is the dad. Sorry if this makes you think I'm stupid or whatever, I've read all the facts several times and believe Ned is the father.

Hate to break it to you, but most of the people on these forums have probably read the books multiple times, so this statement doesn't really impress me.

I haven't even gone into the tv series which gives more evidence to Ned being the dad.

Oh, really? Then please, enlighten me as to the evidence from the TV series. I can't wait to hear it.

[Corm]

Ned doesn't tell Catelyn and Co about it because he's Ned. Like imagine Ned having sex with some "lowly" maid or whatever. He can't marry her and he has to leave her, but because of his honor, he won't talk negatively about her to anyone.

You talking about Jon being conceived before Ned met Catelyn is bullshit. It's like I said, you read too deeply into stuff and look for meanings where there aren't any. I never said I knew who the mother was or when Jon was conceived, i just said I know Ned is the father. You saying there is no proof for Ned being the father shows that you take these forums evidence more serioursly than actual book evidence.

In A Dance of Dragons GRRM spells out once again that Ned is Jon's dad, but alll noooo, that character doesn't know all the facts in your mind.

I've read all 5 books 3 times from start to finish, I think Ned is the dad. Sorry if this makes you think I'm stupid or whatever, I've read all the facts several times and believe Ned is the father.

Obviously we cannot say definitively that Ned isn't the father but there are a lot of hints suggesting that that is the case, the biggest of all being Ned's strange treatment of the subject. It's not that he won't talk negatively about her, it's that he doesn't talk about her at all. He avoids the subject almost completely.

We aren't making connections that aren't at least helped along in the books. There are much wilder, less substantiated theories suggested, this one just makes sense.

Don't expect not to get treated harshly when you refer to other people's opinions as "fucking bullshit", other people see it, you don't. That's fine.