R+L=J v.23

[YUNG LYANNA]

@eymomo,

Welcome to the forum.

I wouldn't be worried about Jon. I don't think it's a matter of if he survives, but rather a matter of how. As others have said, if Martin had meant for him to die at that point, he would've shown him to actually be dead (compare Jon's situation with Quentyn; after Quentyn's encounter, we know that he's dead). The point of a cliffhanger is to make people guess how the person will come out of a situation. You don't have a cliffhanger and then toss the guy over the cliff.

I don't know who Azor Ahai is or if it really even matters. But Maester Aemon saying that it's Dany is one of the biggest reasons I think it ISN'T

Logically, I know you're probably right about Jon, but emotionally I'm still a wreck over it! I guess I'm being too realistic, like "oh he got stabbed in the gut & in the shoulder & somewhere else, they probably poked major organs!" but not all wounds are fatal & I'm sure there's all sorts of possibilities as to how he will survive the stabbings but I really don't want to get my hopes up.

I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword at all.

That never really occured to me, but I'm all for symbolism so if you have more to add I'd love to hear it. Can you or anyone refresh my memory on what the prophecy about AA actually is?

I hope I'm not getting too far off topic with all my questions!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Logically, I know you're probably right about Jon, but emotionally I'm still a wreck over it! I guess I'm being too realistic, like "oh he got stabbed in the gut & in the shoulder & somewhere else, they probably poked major organs!" but not all wounds are fatal & I'm sure there's all sorts of possibilities as to how he will survive the stabbings but I really don't want to get my hopes up.

If it makes you feel better, Martin gave an interview to Entertainment Weekly not long after ADWD came out. The interviewer asked Martin why he'd killed off Jon, and Martin replied, "Oh so you think he's dead, do you?"

That never really occured to me, but I'm all for symbolism so if you have more to add I'd love to hear it. Can you or anyone refresh my memory on what the prophecy about AA actually is?

We've yet to hear the entirety of the prophecy, but there's the Lightbringer angle, Nissa Nissa, waking dragons from stone, smoke and salt, etc.

I think that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

See what I mean?

I think Nissa Nissa represents the Watch's vows to not take wives. And if Azor Ahai is the same as the Last Hero, then the legend has its roots in the Battle for the Dawn, when the Night's Watch fought the Others.

As for stone dragons, in the D&E stories, any time a dragon is seen in a prophecy, it's not a literal dragon, it's a Targaryen. So "waking stone dragons" could simply mean discovering or embracing a dormant or newly discovered Targaryen identity. There's also a theory that Jon will be saved and/or resurrected in the Watch's store rooms, which are filled with smoked and salted meat. Martin goes into a lot of detail about these store rooms in ADWD, and I don't think it was just to tell us how many onions they had in stock.

Dany has "checked" a lot of boxes, yes. But ultimately I think she's a red herring.

[YUNG LYANNA]

YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND. I definitely see where all of that makes sense, especially since prophesies of that sort should never be taken at face value.

I feel like you just solved all the mysteries of life or something.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I feel like you just solved all the mysteries of life or something.

That's the normal reaction. B)

Even if it doesn't end up being the case, I'm still proud of myself and the other people who put the theory together.

[Eira Seren]

a stone dragon beneath winterfell. . . i'm sure someone else has already arrived at this, but now that Apple Martini has said that dragons in prophecies generally represent Targs, I'm thinking maybe there's something to that theory that something important is available in the winterfell crypts. Not that there's necessarily a Targ lurking down there, or a dragon, but maybe some info that will reveal who the stone dragon will be. Jon or another Stark?

[YUNG LYANNA]

a stone dragon beneath winterfell. . . i'm sure someone else has already arrived at this, but now that Apple Martini has said that dragons in prophecies generally represent Targs, I'm thinking maybe there's something to that theory that something important is available in the winterfell crypts. Not that there's necessarily a Targ lurking down there, or a dragon, but maybe some info that will reveal who the stone dragon will be. Jon or another Stark?

from reading the previous threads on this topic, it seems a lot of people have that theory about something within the crypts of winterfell that could reveal Jon's true parentage, but until she-wolf explained her theory about the AA prophecy, I didn't understand why anyone would come to that conclusion. Now, though, it makes sense because whenever Jon dreams about the crypts, the spirits seem to be telling him that he doesn't belong there, that he is not a Stark - it would make sense if he didn't belong there because his father is really a Targ! Maybe the truth is hidden in Lyanna's own crypt?

[LadyMary]

that's actually another reason why I don't believe R+L=J. As you say, it would be hard to find someone that loyal who would go along with the lie. Even harder to find an entire staff of people willing to go along with the lie.

So let's assume that Wylla is part of the conspiracy. She is loyal to her employers and so forth, which is pretty common anyways. I can get that, Wylla is loyal to her masters so she lies, or just doesn't say she ISN'T Jon's mom. Whatever.

However, there are other servants as well. Are they all as loyal as Wylla and willing to lie or contribute to the cover up? Don't you think some other servant would notice when Wylla gave birth? Don't you think some other servant would know who the father was? Surely, Edric Storm who is a boy would have heard the castle gossip. For Wylla to be a "milk mother" she would have to have given birth at some point. If she was sleeping around with other men, wouldn't this be common knowledge? If she slept with another man and had his baby, wouldn't this cast doubt on Jon's parentage? Why is the other man who slept with Wylla not saying anything?

Of course we can only speculate at this point about what the other servants of Starfall knew or believed. The servants at Winterfell heard different bits of gossip, including rumors that the mother was Ashara Dayne despite the common belief that Jon's mother was common. Maybe the same was true for the servants at Starfall.

But if you were a loyal servant of the Daynes, and you heard a rumor that your Lady had killed herself after giving birth to a bastard, would you be repeating that if it could get you fired or thrown in the dungeon, or would you go along with the convenient lie that it was the wetnurse? I think it's more likely, they only heard about it after the fact because Lord Stark - a man know for his honor - implied or lied that Jon's mother was a common woman named Wylla who just happened to be nursing him when she showed up at Starfall with Ned after Lyanna's death. What mattered then was that Ned claimed that he was the father and took the baby away with him back to Winterfell. As long as Wylla was willing to keep her mouth shut about the truth, or willing to let people believe she was Jon's mother, that's all that mattered. I believe Wylla probably had an emotional bond to the baby and probably wanted the best for him, but for all we know, Ned may have paid Wylla hush money to compensate her for keeping Lyanna's secret.

Also about the promise to Lyanna on her deathbed. It could have been anything, to assume it was some weird promise to protect a baby is assumption in my opinion. Lyanna could have asked anything. Like (not saying this is what she asked, just showing it's equally as possible) "Hey Ned I know Robert will make a crap king, you should be king instead." Ned knowing his sister was dying said ok, but in his mind knew he would support Robert to be king because he had the better claim. Or any number of other possibilities. In the tv series I remember Pycelle saying, "A dying man's last words are often as wise as his first words." People are making out like Lyanna's last words had to be something amazing, when quite plausibly they were something insignificant.

When Ned remembers her dying in his POV why does he never think "Lyanna's baby"? Seems a pretty big thing to not remember in your thoughts. He doesn't remember "Lyanna's baby" because there was no baby. It's a romantic idea, so I understand why you want to think there was a special Targaryen baby prince. Unfortunately there isn't one. Jon is the son of Ned and some other woman.

Don't forget that Pycelle is not a reliable narrator, and Jon Arryn's final words were important as Ned discovered.

From what we can tell in the books, Ned is a man who will keep his promises. He is a man who will lie when it's necessary to protect someone he loves, even if the cost is his own honor or life. He can still be an honorable man who was willing to sacrifice his honor in order to keep his promise to Lyanna and tell lies to protect others.

If the promise was that he would try to take the throne from Robert because Lyanna thought Robert would be a crap king, then why didn't Ned try to take the throne from Robert after Lyanna's death? I can think of other promises Ned might have made that are more plausible than that one, but the most likely in view of the other circumstantial evidence is that the promise involved protecting Lyanna's child (i.e., describing Lyanna's as in her "her bed of blood" also called the bloody bed or childbirth in other parts of the series; him telling Catelyn "Jon is of my blood, that is all you need to know" but not telling her "Jon is my son..."). Whatever the promise was, he remembers and feels guilt for living lies to keep the promise and keeping a secret from the people he loves.

Then there are the prophetic visions and other literally allusions that appear to have some relation to Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon, particularly the wreath of blue roses Rhaegar awarded Lyanna at Harrenhal; the similar old tale of Bael the Bard stealing Lord Stark's daughter from her bed and leaving a blue rose in her place (and later, a bastard son); Dany's vision of a blue flower growing from the Wall of ice.

[Corm]

I always thought it interesting the fact that the prophecy can be read to mean Jon will be reborn in the wall storerooms. I mean, it's rather mundane isn't it? "And Azor Ahai will be reborn amidst preserved food". It strikes me as more than a little strange

[FacelessJoe]

Maybe the gossip about Jon being Ned and Wylla's son started because they showed up at the gates of Starfall together, with Wylla carrying a babe at the breast, just a thought but its possible!

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

As for stone dragons, in the D&E stories, any time a dragon is seen in a prophecy, it's not a literal dragon, it's a Targaryen. So "waking stone dragons" could simply mean discovering or embracing a dormant or newly discovered Targaryen identity. There's also a theory that Jon will be saved and/or resurrected in the Watch's store rooms, which are filled with smoked and salted meat. Martin goes into a lot of detail about these store rooms in ADWD, and I don't think it was just to tell us how many onions they had in stock.

Apple Martini, that it is one of the smartest things I've ever heard anyone say. Do you think Melisandre is thinking along those lines yet?

Also I've got another question for you regarding R+L. Why did Rhaegar never tell anyone that him and Lyanna ran off and got married. it's not like he wanted a war to start right? I've been thinking that Rhaegar probably wanted to go to KL to tell Brandon Stark the whole story but before he could get there Aerys burned them and once that happened war was inevitable so he didn't say anything. But if he had just told someone right away the war probably could have been avoided. Robert would have been pissed but I doubt he would have rebelled and he wouldn't have gotten nearly as much support if he did. So what's with all the secrecy?

[The guy from the Vale]

Perhaps Rhaegar told Lord Rickard, but Brandon didn't get the message, and Rickard had no chance to explain himself when facing Aerys. Perhaps the messenger was Littlefinger, who slightly changed it and gave it to Brandon then. Perhaps the biggest problem for Rhaegar way Aerys, and he's the one who shouldn't hear about Lyanna. Perhaps Brandon even did get a real message, but rode off to face Rhaegar anyway.

So, all in all: we don't know (yet?)

[Jorge Danger]

Robert would have been pissed but I doubt he would have rebelled and he wouldn't have gotten nearly as much support if he did.

I think you're right, that people wouldn't have been so quick to support him if everyone had come clean from the beginning, but I don't know if Robert himself could possibly bring himself to believe that Lyanna had gone with Rhaegar willingly. Even if she said so herself, I think he'd probably believe it was under duress. But without the full support of half the realm behind him, he might not have been foolish enough to rebel, especially if Rickard and Brandon don't go to King's Landing and get killed, which was the ultimate catalyst that pushed discontent into rebellion. That and the ordered execution of Ned and Robert, which also might not have happened were it not for the secrecy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I always thought it interesting the fact that the prophecy can be read to mean Jon will be reborn in the wall storerooms. I mean, it's rather mundane isn't it? "And Azor Ahai will be reborn amidst preserved food". It strikes me as more than a little strange

It is mundane but I think that might be the point. Prophecies don't always unfold in grand, godlike splendor.

Apple Martini, that it is one of the smartest things I've ever heard anyone say. Do you think Melisandre is thinking along those lines yet?

Thank you! And no, I think Melisandre is still stuck on Stannis. BUT I think that her seeing Stannis was another of her misinterpretations. She saw Stannis in the fire and thought he was Azor Ahai. When in actuality, if it ends up being Jon, Stannis will be the guy who brought her to Jon, but not the actual "savior."

Also I've got another question for you regarding R+L. Why did Rhaegar never tell anyone that him and Lyanna ran off and got married. it's not like he wanted a war to start right? I've been thinking that Rhaegar probably wanted to go to KL to tell Brandon Stark the whole story but before he could get there Aerys burned them and once that happened war was inevitable so he didn't say anything. But if he had just told someone right away the war probably could have been avoided. Robert would have been pissed but I doubt he would have rebelled and he wouldn't have gotten nearly as much support if he did. So what's with all the secrecy?

Rhaegar was already married (he may have been worried about how polygamy would be received) and Lyanna was formally betrothed. I don't think that they could have been out and proud about it. However, there is a theory I've seen that suggests that Lyanna left a letter or a note explaining her actions, but it was "lost" en route. So a war was never the intent, but because of miscommunications (whether intentional or not), that's how it worked out.

[Eddward Stark]

Thank you! And no, I think Melisandre is still stuck on Stannis. BUT I think that her seeing Stannis was another of her misinterpretations. She saw Stannis in the fire and thought he was Azor Ahai. When in actuality, if it ends up being Jon, Stannis will be the guy who brought her to Jon, but not the actual "savior."

Thanks, Apple Martini, for all of your great theories and summaries that help us newer forum readers out.

I tend to think that Melisandre is starting to have doubts about her interpretation of Stannis being AA. If not, I think she at least has come to realize that Jon really is important somehow; why else would she see him ALL the time in the flames? Recall that she keeps asking the Lord of Light to show her AA, "but all I see is Snow" (with a capital 'S,' i.e. Jon Snow). I'm definitely convinced about R+L=J and I agree with Apple Martini that Stannis was just a conduit for Mel to get to Jon. What is the Lord of Light's plan for her (i.e. how will she help him)? Who knows? Maybe she'll teach him. Maybe she'll even give her spirit to Jon, as Lord Beric gave his to Catelyn...but like 10 seconds after Jon dies, so he isn't like UnCat (yuck). I doubt it though.

Imagine if Melisandre finally is convinced that Jon is AA. What would Queen Selyse do? What would the queen's men and king's men do? It would be a sticky situation, and Jon could be in even more trouble, so Mel may stay hush hush for a bit.

Sorry this isn't exactly on topic. :P

[Alia of the knife]

I forget if they revealed what the reference was in ADWD... ?

I don't think they ever did say exactly what he read, or I just can't remember.:(

[Alia of the knife]

That's the normal reaction. B)

Even if it doesn't end up being the case, I'm still proud of myself and the other people who put the theory together.

I'm glad you do this, because it gives me a headache.

[Lady Octarina]

a stone dragon beneath winterfell. . . i'm sure someone else has already arrived at this, but now that Apple Martini has said that dragons in prophecies generally represent Targs, I'm thinking maybe there's something to that theory that something important is available in the winterfell crypts. Not that there's necessarily a Targ lurking down there, or a dragon, but maybe some info that will reveal who the stone dragon will be. Jon or another Stark?

Someone sent me this theory a while ago saying that Rhaegar would have given Lyanna a Valyrian sword, one of the Targ blades, before he left for the war, and that Ned brought the sword with him to Winterfell and "buried" it with Lyanna's bones. I like this idea, it adds something more to the old theory of the hidden sword. I just wonder how Jon would come to learn about it, would have the idea to search for something in the crypts - though that can't be much of a problem with Bloodraven (and soon Bran?) sending people dreams...

Apple Martini, that it is one of the smartest things I've ever heard anyone say. Do you think Melisandre is thinking along those lines yet?

Also I've got another question for you regarding R+L. Why did Rhaegar never tell anyone that him and Lyanna ran off and got married. it's not like he wanted a war to start right? I've been thinking that Rhaegar probably wanted to go to KL to tell Brandon Stark the whole story but before he could get there Aerys burned them and once that happened war was inevitable so he didn't say anything. But if he had just told someone right away the war probably could have been avoided. Robert would have been pissed but I doubt he would have rebelled and he wouldn't have gotten nearly as much support if he did. So what's with all the secrecy?

You know what would be nice? If Melisandre only realizes he is AA after he is "reborn" as such. Or at least that she helps him survive/bring him back to life, but only later realizes she was helping the actual AA by doing that. Prophecies do tend to fulfill by accident, more often than not ;)

Also, I think Aerys was truly the problem there. Rhaegar wasn't king, and since the old Targ habit of taking a second wife had been lost through the years, I assume he needed the king's blessing to make that marriage seem legit to the rest of the realm (which brings a problem, for I don't know how his probable marrying Lyanna in Dorne would stand in such circumstances). Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar back then, I doubt he would have went along with those plans; and without his father behind the decision, the other great lords (and, most important, Lord Rickard) probably wouldn't accept that marriage and the war would happen anyway.

[Exitao]

If R+L=J then Jon would be the only rightful king in Westeros, with a better claim than Stannis. So Melisandre would be wrong.

As for the quirkiness of prophesies, most of the visions are couched in symbolism. Except the one Cersei received from the fortune teller, which may only have come true because she acted to prevent it.

[The guy from the Vale]

That depends on your take on Robert's Rebellion. If you think it was the right thing to do, House Baratheon is now the ruling dynasty, and Stannis the rightful king. If you are a Targaryen loyalist though, Jon is the rightful heir, as long as Aegon is fake.

[Jorge Danger]

That depends on your take on Robert's Rebellion. If you think it was the right thing to do, House Baratheon is now the ruling dynasty, and Stannis the rightful king. If you are a Targaryen loyalist though, Jon is the rightful heir, as long as Aegon is fake.

But wouldn't a Targaryen loyalist claiming that the Baratheons' claim by conquest is illegitimate be hypocritical? After all, Aegon the Conqueror had no blood right to be the ruler over all Westeros. He went out and took it, just as Robert did. To say one was legitimate but not the other doesn't seem logical.