R+L=J v.23

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But wouldn't a Targaryen loyalist claiming that the Baratheons' claim by conquest is illegitimate be hypocritical? After all, Aegon the Conqueror had no blood right to be the ruler over all Westeros. He went out and took it, just as Robert did. To say one was legitimate but not the other doesn't seem logical.

Yes, and yet there are some people, usually Targ fans, who swear up and down that usurpation is "less than" conquest, or morally inferior. Nonsense. Aegon took what wasn't his, and his family ended up paying for it in the end. And Robert's family, too, really. But yeah, the Baratheons displaced the Targs, the lords swore fealty to the Baratheons. House Targaryen is no longer the actual royal house.

[Vincent]

So what is the general consensus on this thread? Jon is intact part Stark part Targaryen or is it that he is the bastard son of Ned stark? Just to clarify and also what arguments would you use to support you own theory? Personally I can see either being true. However It seems more likely to me when you look at the time line and how Ned conducted himself in the first book that intact Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Just my opinion but very very open and liable to change depending not he evidence.

[Serie]

So what is the general consensus on this thread? Jon is intact part Stark part Targaryen or is it that he is the bastard son of Ned stark? Just to clarify and also what arguments would you use to support you own theory? Personally I can see either being true. However It seems more likely to me when you look at the time line and how Ned conducted himself in the first book that intact Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Just my opinion but very very open and liable to change depending not he evidence.

general concensus? well I don't think I can summarize a topic of 23 threads, each thread of 22 or so pages, in a post but R+L=J is the most popular and well-established theory IMHO. Of course argumentation is always welcome :D

as Dragonfish posted earlier, maybe this will be helpful :)

[jon's_mom]

Now, though, it makes sense because whenever Jon dreams about the crypts, the spirits seem to be telling him that he doesn't belong there, that he is not a Stark - it would make sense if he didn't belong there because his father is really a Targ! Maybe the truth is hidden in Lyanna's own crypt?

Jon's dreams would suggest his connection to the Starks, not his disconnection from it.

Also, how does Lyanna's crypt prove that Jon is the son Rhaegar Targaeryan? I suggest you read the books more and this thread less. Jon is the son of Ned.

[Serie]

Jon's dreams would suggest his connection to the Starks, not his disconnection from it.

Also, how does Lyanna's crypt prove that Jon is the son Rhaegar Targaeryan? I suggest you read the books more and this thread less. Jon is the son of Ned.

This theory suggests that Jon is a Targ as well as a Stark.

And *SPECULATION* wouldn't be fun if a dragon's egg is hidden in Lyanna's crypt?

[jon's_mom]

Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar back then, I doubt he would have went along with those plans; and without his father behind the decision, the other great lords (and, most important, Lord Rickard) probably wouldn't accept that marriage and the war would happen anyway.

Evidence from the books show that Aerys didn't really care about what other lords thought. He did dodgey things to Tywin's wife on his wedding night, boiled Lord Rickon in his armor while his son Brandon watched and got strangled. I think your point doesn't prove R+L=J at all.

You say Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar? Why? How come? Where is the evidence?

Everything I read in the books proves that Aerys did trust Rhaegar. Look at Jaime Lannister. Jaime was forced to stay with Aerys while the other kg went to battle, because Aerys saw Tywin Lannister as a threat. If Aerys was so distrustful of his son Rhaegar, why did Aerys never disown him? Why didn't he kill him like anyone else who annoyed him? When Rhaegar hid like a coward in the Tower of "Joy" why didn't Aerys get all paranoid and ask for him to be killed?

Why didn't Aerys declare Rhaegar an outlaw to be killed?

So Hightower and all the other kg who are so loyal to the king are suddenly rebelling and protecting Rhaegar?

How does that make them honorable in Ned's mind? Why would they reject Aerys and Ned but accept Rhaegar? And afterwards Ned think of them as honorable? If they rejected their king and protected Rhaegar and his mistress, that would piss Ned off.

[Ygrain]

Jon's dreams would suggest his connection to the Starks, not his disconnection from it.

Also, how does Lyanna's crypt prove that Jon is the son Rhaegar Targaeryan? I suggest you read the books more and this thread less. Jon is the son of Ned.

Sending others to read the books when your own reading has been proved faulty (Ned never lies, right?) is rather rude, IMHO. Besides, time and again, new people, myself included, come over here because they have figured the theory on their own, without reading it in the thread or elsewhere. The set of leads that made us believe R+L is, as has been pointed out, summed up over here, http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html, so if you want to dispute the theory, do us all a favour and read the essay. Then you can offer your own explanations, instead of mere trolling with condescending comments, which neither prove nor disprove anything.

[Teal'c]

It is known.

[jon's_mom]

Rhaegar would have given Lyanna a Valyrian sword, one of the Targ blades, before he left for the war, and that Ned brought the sword with him to Winterfell and "buried" it with Lyanna's bones.

heh yeah nice "theory".

Everyone encourage and support theories like that supporting R+L=J yet do nothing to refute rediculous theories like the one you made,

So yes, I diasagree with your justification of R+L=J. I just never seen evidence of Ned taking one of Rhaegar's "special" blades and burying it with Lyanna in Winterfell Crypts as some symbolic message that only Ned understands.

[Ygrain]

Evidence from the books show that Aerys didn't really care about what other lords thought. He did dodgey things to Tywin's wife on his wedding night, boiled Lord Rickon in his armor while his son Brandon watched and got strangled. I think your point doesn't prove R+L=J at all.

No, Aerys really didn't care, and that's why he ended the way he did. Besides, Lady Octarina was answering a question why Rhaegar never made publicly known that he and Lyanna were married (if that was the case); she was expressing her opinion, not bringing a proof, so I don't see why you're disputing it.

You say Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar? Why? How come? Where is the evidence?

It is clearly stated in the books that Aerys attended the Harrenhall tourney because he believed the occasion was held as a cover-up for Rhaegar, to gather support among the lords to overthrow Aerys, and that this paranoia was fuelled by Varys.

Everything I read in the books proves that Aerys did trust Rhaegar. Look at Jaime Lannister. Jaime was forced to stay with Aerys while the other kg went to battle, because Aerys saw Tywin Lannister as a threat. If Aerys was so distrustful of his son Rhaegar, why did Aerys never disown him? Why didn't he kill him like anyone else who annoyed him? When Rhaegar hid like a coward in the Tower of "Joy" why didn't Aerys get all paranoid and ask for him to be killed?

Why didn't Aerys declare Rhaegar an outlaw to be killed?

Because killing an offending stranger is way different from killing your own son, whom you most probably used to like when he was younger and you less paranoid?

Now that you mention Jaime, there is actually a parallel - Elia and the children are at KL all the time. BTW, why shouldn't Aerys trust Rhaegar to fight Robert? It's not like these two could ever ally against him.

As for disowning, I'm not sure this would even be possible, since the succession line is given by custom, not a royal decree.

So Hightower and all the other kg who are so loyal to the king are suddenly rebelling and protecting Rhaegar?

How does that make them honorable in Ned's mind? Why would they reject Aerys and Ned but accept Rhaegar? And afterwards Ned think of them as honorable? If they rejected their king and protected Rhaegar and his mistress, that would piss Ned off.

And who says they are rebelling? They make very clear that had they been at KL, they would have protected Aerys. They certainly do not go out of their way to protect Rhaegar, since we see KG repeatedly protect the members of the royal family, and Rhaegar is still the crown prince. Now, if you're talking about the events of ToJ, when both Aerys and Rhaegar (and Aegon) are already dead and the KG know it, yet they still claim they keep their vows, this is one of the core arguments of the R+L theory. At that moment, they should, ideally all three, but at least one of them, travel to Dragonstone ASAP and protect Viserys. If they don't, which is against the basic KG rule, yet they keep their vows at the same time, there is no other conclusion that Viserys is not king, and therefore they are not bound to go to him. And, since Rhaegar apparently did not abduct/elope with Lyanna to sing her songs in the moonlight, a child is entirely possible, the timeline does not prevent it. But, since Viserys would still take a precedence over a bastard, the child would have to be legit.

[Ygrain]

heh yeah nice "theory".

Everyone encourage and support theories like that supporting R+L=J yet do nothing to refute rediculous theories like the one you made,

So yes, I diasagree with your justification of R+L=J. I just never seen evidence of Ned taking one of Rhaegar's "special" blades and burying it with Lyanna in Winterfell Crypts as some symbolic message that only Ned understands.

/cough/ maybe you should start distinguishing between textual evidence and people amusing themselves making up spin-offs for a theory. No-one ever claimed that Rhaegar did give Lyanna a sword but that he might have, and no-one ever claimed that this is justification of the R+L theory. The sword theory sprouted from R+L, not the other way round, so you're basically disproving a point you have artificially made yourself. The point is, if the crypts of Winterfell do hold some proof of R+L, what could that be? A sealed document, a silver harp, a dragon egg ,a special sword (and we know that Jon wants to have his father's sword very much), a thread of silver hair entwined with brown, tied to a dried rose? And is there supposed to be an official proof, or rather something for Jon, to privately figure out?

[jon's_mom]

Sending others to read the books when your own reading has been proved faulty (Ned never lies, right?) is rather rude, IMHO. Besides, time and again, new people, myself included, come over here because they have figured the theory on their own, without reading it in the thread or elsewhere.

You know what. I agree. I apologize.

The forum set of leads that made us believe R+L is, as has been pointed out, summed up over here, http://towerofthehan...ws_parents.html, so if you want to dispute the theory, do us all a favour and read the essay. Then you can offer your own explanations, instead of mere trolling with condescending comments, which neither prove nor disprove anything.

I have read the essay and dispute it, that's why I post and it is what prompted you to critisize me in the first place.

Furthermore, you using that essay as some kind of "proof" and "verification" of your theory proves how little you know. The tower of the hand essay is a usefual source for argument on the Jon-parentage theory. It isn't the be all and end all.

Seriously, your best refute is read the tower of hand essay? Your comments portray you as a "Jonny-come-lately", someone who wants to be accepted but is too stupid/educated in the subject to contribute properly.

I encourage all new participants to join the debate, but if you are going to do so, at least have a vague understanding of the topic and what has been discussed before.

[Serie]

You know what. I agree. I apologize.

I have read the essay and dispute it, that's why I post and it is what prompted you to critisize me in the first place.

Furthermore, you using that essay as some kind of "proof" and "verification" of your theory proves how little you know. The tower of the hand essay is a usefual source for argument on the Jon-parentage theory. It isn't the be all and end all.

Seriously, your best refute is read the tower of hand essay? Your comments portray you as a "Jonny-come-lately", someone who wants to be accepted but is too stupid/educated in the subject to contribute properly.

I encourage all new participants to join the debate, but if you are going to do so, at least have a vague understanding of the topic and what has been discussed before.

would you please, kind Sir, share with us your explanation of Lyanna's "promise me Ned", Ned's nightmares of the ToJ and the existence of 3KG members there?

and btw I love passionate people but there's a fine line between passion and hostility. Describing people as

someone who wants to be accepted but is too stupid/educated in the subject to contribute properly

is rude and for sure Ygrain doesn't deserve that kind of characterization.

[jon's_mom]

No, Aerys really didn't care, and that's why he ended the way he did. Besides, Lady Octarina was answering a question why Rhaegar never made publicly known that he and Lyanna were married (if that was the case); she was expressing her opinion, not bringing a proof, so I don't see why you're disputing it.

because this is the type of argument that is continually proposed, yet never countered on these forums. This sort of rediculous theory is indirectly endorsed by people like you defending it, while anyone disagreeing with it and R+L=J is systematically broken down.

he believed the occasion was held as a cover-up for Rhaegar, to gather support among the lords to overthrow Aerys, and that this paranoia was fuelled by Varys.

Got any quotes frome the actual books for that? I mean from the books, not this thread or the towh essay.

Don't have time for more refutes, going to bed. Bye.

[reek it rhymes with meek]

Jon`s parents are Hodor and old nan

-You heard this from me first

[Ursa]

Got any quotes frome the actual books for that? I mean from the books, not this thread or the towh essay.

From ADWD, chapter 67, The Kingbreaker. Selmy is thinking to himself after a long day...

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its

secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring. The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince

Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

[Dragonfish]

Furthermore, you using that essay as some kind of "proof" and "verification" of your theory proves how little you know. The tower of the hand essay is a usefual source for argument on the Jon-parentage theory. It isn't the be all and end all.

Seriously, your best refute is read the tower of hand essay?

No one considers the tower of the hand essay to be absolute proof, we just consider it to be the best source of evidence for the theory. We have asked you to read it several times, simply because you seem to be completely ignorant of all the evidence that is out there. And so far, you've never really refuted any of the specific points raised in that essay.

Your comments portray you as a "Jonny-come-lately", someone who wants to be accepted but is too stupid/educated in the subject to contribute properly.

I like how you call Ygrain "stupid" while misspelling the word "uneducated".

I encourage all new participants to join the debate, but if you are going to do so, at least have a vague understanding of the topic and what has been discussed before.

This comment really ought to be directed at you.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is amusing me to no end.

My question for all doubters still stands: If Jon's mother is a common wet nurse or a fishwife, what's keeping Ned from telling him the truth? Where is the significance of that and why is it worth the mystery? Never mind Rhaegar and Lyanna's romance, Lyanna's death from what is all but said to be childbirth, the presence of the Kingsguard, the vision of the blue rose on the Wall, Ned's 14-year-long feeling of guilt and Lyanna's promise to Ned. Forget all of that.

If Jon's mother is a nobody, why is it such a big goddamn secret?

And as Dragonfish said, the Tower of the Hand essay isn't "proof" on its own. But's a damn good collection of evidence.

[Corm]

because this is the type of argument that is continually proposed, yet never countered on these forums. This sort of rediculous theory is indirectly endorsed by people like you defending it, while anyone disagreeing with it and R+L=J is systematically broken down.

Maybe because they realise that the theory makes sense?

[Euphail]

If Jon's mother is a nobody, why is it such a big goddamn secret?

And as Dragonfish said, the Tower of the Hand essay isn't "proof" on its own. But's a damn good collection of evidence.

Because Ned is actually the greatest player of the "game of thrones" that there is. He was planning on the war and Rob coming south. He was planning on multiple people claiming the throne. He wanted Jon safe far North, but planned to send for him before Jon swore his vows. All this so he could claim that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna the mother without it actually being true. Jon would be the "targarian/stark" savior and give Ned control of the throne - what he really wanted all the time.

What he didn't factor in was that his head would roll.

Ned's ultimate plan was to usurp the throne. That's why it was a secret.... (JK for the laughs?)

edit: spelling