R+L=J v.23

[dtones520]

I've recently formed the opinion that Lyanna may very well be Wylla based on:

1) Edric Dayne told Arya that he and Jon Snow were milk brothers

2) Jon's involvement with switching Gilly's baby with Mance's - a parallel to pay attention to

3) Ned Stark was in love with Ashara Dayne and only married Catelyn out of duty

4) IMO, Ned fathered a baby with Ashara either before or after his marriage to Catelyn and switched his baby for Lyanna's to protect the Prince that was Promised

5) Even if it turns out Ned didn't father a bastard, I think he and Ashara still had enough love between them for her to help him hide Rhaegar's baby

Ned, Lyanna, Ashara, Wylla, Rhaegar, Jon and Edric's lives are so tightly woven together it can get confusing. But, basically we have a mother nursing two babies, just like Gilly. One baby goes to Winterfell, just like the one Gilly takes to Oldtown. One stays behind at the Wall as a "fake" Mance baby. Jon is a "fake" Ned baby. Ned's trueborn baby stays with Ashara or Wylla. If it's not Ned's, then whose? Now, while so far Gilly isn't pretending to be anyone other than herself doesn't necessarily mean that Wylla isn't someone else. She could be Ashara or Lyanna.

This is one of four mysteries that I am looking forward to solving with the next two books. The other three: 1) the three heads of the dragon, 2) is Jon really dead, and 3) is Stannis really dead.

For Lyanna to be Wylla she would have had to survive the Tower of Joy, based on your theory. Edric Dayne is 12 in ASOS, Jon turned 15 in GOT, so he is probably 16 at that time. Meaning that, since they were milk brothers with Wylla and you think Wylla is Lyanna, Lyanna would have been alive to nurse Edric 2-4 years after the TOJ.

If she were Ashara, there wouldn't be the rumor that Ashara Dayne was dead, as she would have been alive to nurse the heir to House Dayne.

[Ygrain]

I've recently formed the opinion that Lyanna may very well be Wylla based on:

1) Edric Dayne told Arya that he and Jon Snow were milk brothers

2) Jon's involvement with switching Gilly's baby with Mance's - a parallel to pay attention to

3) Ned Stark was in love with Ashara Dayne and only married Catelyn out of duty

4) IMO, Ned fathered a baby with Ashara either before or after his marriage to Catelyn and switched his baby for Lyanna's to protect the Prince that was Promised

5) Even if it turns out Ned didn't father a bastard, I think he and Ashara still had enough love between them for her to help him hide Rhaegar's baby

Ned, Lyanna, Ashara, Wylla, Rhaegar, Jon and Edric's lives are so tightly woven together it can get confusing. But, basically we have a mother nursing two babies, just like Gilly. One baby goes to Winterfell, just like the one Gilly takes to Oldtown. One stays behind at the Wall as a "fake" Mance baby. Jon is a "fake" Ned baby. Ned's trueborn baby stays with Ashara or Wylla. If it's not Ned's, then whose? Now, while so far Gilly isn't pretending to be anyone other than herself doesn't necessarily mean that Wylla isn't someone else. She could be Ashara or Lyanna.

This is one of four mysteries that I am looking forward to solving with the next two books. The other three: 1) the three heads of the dragon, 2) is Jon really dead, and 3) is Stannis really dead.

I believe Ned's memory of Lyanna dying in his arms is too straightforward to allow any doubt that Lyanna could have survived; besides, if she did, the memory of her probably wouldn't haunt Ned so much.

Ashara cannot possibly take up a false identity as a wetnurse at Starfall where everyone knows her since childhood. It would mean that the whole castle would have to be on the fake suicide, and that is way too many people to be trusted, or even to be able, to keep the secret.

[Melifeather]

For Lyanna to be Wylla she would have had to survive the Tower of Joy, based on your theory. Edric Dayne is 12 in ASOS, Jon turned 15 in GOT, so he is probably 16 at that time. Meaning that, since they were milk brothers with Wylla and you think Wylla is Lyanna, Lyanna would have been alive to nurse Edric 2-4 years after the TOJ.

If she were Ashara, there wouldn't be the rumor that Ashara Dayne was dead, as she would have been alive to nurse the heir to House Dayne.

Yes, I realize that Lyanna would have had to survive Jon's birth. Ned's memories included the bed of blood and her insistance that he promise something, but I don't believe he actually has a memory that she DIED.

Yes, Edric states he is 12...could that be the truth or is this a lie? As for Ashara/Wylla, the death always felt overly dramatic to me. She supposedly committed suicide after hearing about the death of her father. Really? Is it un-fathomable that she faked her own death?

I believe Ned's memory of Lyanna dying in his arms is too straightforward to allow any doubt that Lyanna could have survived; besides, if she did, the memory of her probably wouldn't haunt Ned so much.

Ashara cannot possibly take up a false identity as a wetnurse at Starfall where everyone knows her since childhood. It would mean that the whole castle would have to be on the fake suicide, and that is way too many people to be trusted, or even to be able, to keep the secret.

Ned's dreaming and remembering include a bed of blood and her insistance "promise me"...but, it did not include that she had died. We are led to assume she died. ...and I am guessing Ashara faked her own death without anyone's help. One detail that struck me is that Edric Dayne is Beric Dondarrion's squire. Beric was sent out by Ned shortly before his beheading. It would only be fitting that he also had the care of his real bastard son.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, I realize that Lyanna would have had to survive Jon's birth. Ned's memories included the bed of blood and her insistance that he promise something, but I don't believe he actually has a memory that she DIED.

Yes, Edric states he is 12...could that be the truth or is this a lie? As for Ashara/Wylla, the death always felt overly dramatic to me. She supposedly committed suicide after hearing about the death of her father. Really? Is it un-fathomable that she faked her own death?

Plenty of people think she faked her death. But I've never seen anyone make the claim that Ashara and Wylla are the same person.

Ned's dreaming and remembering include a bed of blood and her insistance "promise me"...but, it did not include that she had died. We are led to assume she died. ...and I am guessing Ashara faked her own death without anyone's help. One detail that struck me is that Edric Dayne is Beric Dondarrion's squire. Beric was sent out by Ned shortly before his beheading. It would only be fitting that he also had the care of his real bastard son.

Edric Dayne is too young to be Ned's bastard with Ashara.

ETA: Ned describes her giving up "her hold on life" and it explicitly says that they found Ned holding her body. Lyanna is dead.

[Dragonfish]

Yes, I realize that Lyanna would have had to survive Jon's birth. Ned's memories included the bed of blood and her insistance that he promise something, but I don't believe he actually has a memory that she DIED.

Here's what he says in AGOT:

"Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

Seems pretty unambiguous to me. And if this doesn't convince you, note that George referred to Lyanna as a dead character in a recent interview.

[kg1982]

Edric is 12; any child that Ned and Ashara had would have to be 18 or so unless Ned was cheating on Cat way into their marriage.

As for Jon as king, being king comes with a few things that are handy in fighting scary zombies like an army and dragons. Jon has an interesting mixture of emo and practical qualities. After he finishes sulking about the situation for awhile, he might see it as something that he can use to further his goals. Perhaps the only way to get everyone mobilized against the Others is by becoming king. I'm not sure it will stick, but I don't doubt that Jon will end up using it to serve the greater good.

[Melifeather]

Plenty of people think she faked her death. But I've never seen anyone make the claim that Ashara and Wylla are the same person.

Edric Dayne is too young to be Ned's bastard with Ashara.

ETA: Ned describes her giving up "her hold on life" and it explicitly says that they found Ned holding her body. Lyanna is dead.

Here's what he says in AGOT:

"Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

Seems pretty unambiguous to me. And if this doesn't convince you, note that George referred to Lyanna as a dead character in a recent interview.

OK...I'll give up on Lyanna being Wylla! I think the jury is still out on Ashara!

@AppleMartini...perhaps Jon is the combo Ice/Fire, Dany pure Fire, but since the dragon has three heads perhaps the third head is pure Ice?

[Serie]

Ned's dreaming and remembering include a bed of blood and her insistance "promise me"...but, it did not include that she had died.

Not in Ned's dream but from Ned's first POVs its quite obvious IMHO he hold her when she was dead

"Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his"

ETA: and of course Dragonfish was quicker ;) respect :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@AppleMartini...perhaps Jon is the combo Ice/Fire, Dany pure Fire, but since the dragon has three heads perhaps the third head is pure Ice?

I'm not committing to any interpretation of what or who the three heads mean, sorry. It could be three different riders, or one "dragon" with three identifies (three heads), or something else entirely.

[Melifeather]

Edric is 12; any child that Ned and Ashara had would have to be 18 or so unless Ned was cheating on Cat way into their marriage.

I think it merits exploration that Edric is older than 12. When exactly did Ashara "commit suicide"? If Ashara is indeed Wylla, she could have shaved a couple, three years off Edric's age and brought him up to believe he's younger than he is. Edric meets Arya when Jon is still around 15 years old. Remember when Jon is named Lord Commander and his men joke that he's still in diapers? (or similar comment) Edric doesn't mention the name of his father, so are we to assume he doesn't know who he was/is? All he knows is that he was milk brothers with Jon and that he's a Dayne from Starfall. It's interesting that his nickname is "Ned", which to me indicates that Ashara had warm feelings toward Ned Stark. If she were a woman scorned, she certainly wouldn't want a name that reminded her of another man other than the child's father.

I'm not committing to any interpretation of what or who the three heads mean, sorry. It could be three different riders, or one "dragon" with three identifies (three heads), or something else entirely.

I shouldn't have ended my sentence with a question mark. I wasn't asking your opinion, but rather offering something to think about.

[Buried Treasure]

I think it merits exploration that Edric is older than 12. When exactly did Ashara "commit suicide"? If Ashara is indeed Wylla, she could have shaved a couple, three years off Edric's age and brought him up to believe he's younger than he is. Edric meets Arya when Jon is still around 15 years old. Remember when Jon is named Lord Commander and his men joke that he's still in diapers? (or similar comment) Edric doesn't mention the name of his father, so are we to assume he doesn't know who he was/is? All he knows is that he was milk brothers with Jon and that he's a Dayne from Starfall. It's interesting that his nickname is "Ned", which to me indicates that Ashara had warm feelings toward Ned Stark. If she were a woman scorned, she certainly wouldn't want a name that reminded her of another man other than the child's father.

Edric wasn't brought up by Wylla in isolation though, she was one servant among many at Starfall. Dozens if not hundreds of people in the surrounding area would have regularly seen Edric as he grew up from a baby - some visiting occasionally, others seeing him every day of his life until he went to squire for Beric. He was also the lords heir, so Lord and Lady Dayne must have been pretty confidant whose child he was and how old he was.

That also applies to Ashara herself. If she was going to give up her identity and take on a disguise as a common wetnurse then she would have to move away from the place she grew up in (and as the lords daughter she would have been very well known). A handful of people might be able to keep such a secret for 14 years, a castleful? No way.

[Lady Octarina]

I've recently formed the opinion that Lyanna may very well be Wylla based on:

1) Edric Dayne told Arya that he and Jon Snow were milk brothers

2) Jon's involvement with switching Gilly's baby with Mance's - a parallel to pay attention to

3) Ned Stark was in love with Ashara Dayne and only married Catelyn out of duty

4) IMO, Ned fathered a baby with Ashara either before or after his marriage to Catelyn and switched his baby for Lyanna's to protect the Prince that was Promised

5) Even if it turns out Ned didn't father a bastard, I think he and Ashara still had enough love between them for her to help him hide Rhaegar's baby

Ned, Lyanna, Ashara, Wylla, Rhaegar, Jon and Edric's lives are so tightly woven together it can get confusing. But, basically we have a mother nursing two babies, just like Gilly. One baby goes to Winterfell, just like the one Gilly takes to Oldtown. One stays behind at the Wall as a "fake" Mance baby. Jon is a "fake" Ned baby. Ned's trueborn baby stays with Ashara or Wylla. If it's not Ned's, then whose? Now, while so far Gilly isn't pretending to be anyone other than herself doesn't necessarily mean that Wylla isn't someone else. She could be Ashara or Lyanna.

This is one of four mysteries that I am looking forward to solving with the next two books. The other three: 1) the three heads of the dragon, 2) is Jon really dead, and 3) is Stannis really dead.

That's a lovely theory, though highly unlikely. Apart from what other people have mentioned, why switch the babies? It seems to me that keeping Jon in Dorne as raising him at Starfall as a commoner's bastard would be taking much less risks than sending the boy to Winterfell and count with the possibility that people would be satisfied with Ned's tale. Not to mention that the boy was too young for such a travel, whether by land or sea.

As to your other posts, I agree Ashara's death seems a bit too melodramatic to be true, but I'm still going with the Ashara=Lemore theory :laugh:

And Edric Dayne's parents... well, the problem with the Daynes is that we barely know anything about them, so we're left to speculate based on random, insignificant clues. I'm hoping George will explain that family better, because they do seem more significant than they have been shown as so far. But, well, Ned's name is Dayne, which means he is a legitimate child of a previous Dayne (whether man or woman, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in Dorne). Ashara died/disappeared 14 years before AGoT, the boy was 12 when we meet him (ASoS?), and I really don't think one can pretend that a 15 year old boy is actually 3 years younger (unless the boy himself was into the ploy and pretending to be who he wasn't, but that seems much of a stretch). So, my guess is that he is the son of a brother or sister of Ashara and Arthur Dayne.

[David Selig]

Edric said to Arya that his nurse was Jon's mother Wylla. Nowhere it's implied that Wylla nursed him and Jon at the same time - Edric was born at least 3 years after Jon. If Edric is actually 15 or older, Arya would've noticed he looks too big for his age, yet there's no such thing.

[Corm]

Edric said to Arya that his nurse was Jon's mother Wylla. Nowhere it's implied that Wylla nursed him.

It said they were milk-brothers, which I assumed meant at the same time but I suppose she could have nursed them both 3 years apart

If Edric is actually 15 or older, Arya would've noticed he looks too big for his age, yet there's no such thing.

That's speculative. Everyone ages differently, some are more prone to spots, some are short for their age. I'd say it's 50/50 whether Arya would notice if he was older or not, he might not look as old as he is. That said I still think he is 12.

[Teal'c]

@Corm - the black or brown hair is a dominant gene. The blond is recessive.

Rhaegar has two blond genes, so he is blond. Elia of Dorne has dark hair but is heterozygous brown/blonde, so she was able to produce one blond son and one brown haired daughter. Lyanna has brown hair so at least one brown hair gene which she passes to Jon.

Robert seems to have 2 black hair genes because all his children have the black hair. Jaime and Cersei both blondes so all blonde children.

Straight Mendelian deal.

Edit: Thanks for the catch Ygrain!

[dtones520]

It said they were milk-brothers, which I assumed meant at the same time but I suppose she could have nursed them both 3 years apart

That's speculative. Everyone ages differently, some are more prone to spots, some are short for their age. I'd say it's 50/50 whether Arya would notice if he was older or not, he might not look as old as he is. That said I still think he is 12.

Milk brothers or sisters are just someone who had the same wet nurse.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just want to point out that Edric's age is given as 12 in the Storm of Sword appendix. It's unambiguous. He's 12.

[dtones520]

I think it merits exploration that Edric is older than 12. When exactly did Ashara "commit suicide"? If Ashara is indeed Wylla, she could have shaved a couple, three years off Edric's age and brought him up to believe he's younger than he is. Edric meets Arya when Jon is still around 15 years old. Remember when Jon is named Lord Commander and his men joke that he's still in diapers? (or similar comment) Edric doesn't mention the name of his father, so are we to assume he doesn't know who he was/is? All he knows is that he was milk brothers with Jon and that he's a Dayne from Starfall. It's interesting that his nickname is "Ned", which to me indicates that Ashara had warm feelings toward Ned Stark. If she were a woman scorned, she certainly wouldn't want a name that reminded her of another man other than the child's father.

I shouldn't have ended my sentence with a question mark. I wasn't asking your opinion, but rather offering something to think about.

Edric Dayne was raised at Starfall, I'm pretty sure that the Lord of Starfalls wet nurse would be pretty widely known and seen by Edrics parents. So, if she was Ashara Dayne, I'd imagine she would be recognized.

I'm guessing he is called Ned out of respect to Eddard Stark who, despite the war and Arthur attacking him, returned the family sword to Starfall.

Ashara, from all we know, was stricken with grief after Arthur's death, a stillborn child and being dishonored by a "Stark" at Harrenhal. Leading to her killing herself shortly after the rebellion.

[dtones520]

I'm sure this though has been posted here, and I don't really think its true, but, could Aegon and Jon be twins? My reason for thinking this would be that Septa Lemore is really Ashara Dayne and when Ned came to Starfall he brought both babies. His promise to Lyanna was to keep them safe, but separate them, especially because Jon had the Stark look and Aegon has the Targaryen look. Being that Ashara just lost her child, she would be able to nurse Aegon and keep him safe in exile, as opposed to staying at Starfall with a Targ looking kid.

Somehow Varys, who's motives still aren't known, catches wind of the plot or at least Ashara Dayne being spotted in the free cities with a Targ looking baby and confronts her, brings her to Pentos where she stays at Illyrios manse until Jon Connington comes in the picture. Obviously, now, being used in the Mummer's game.

I know childbirth was hard on a woman regardless of it being twins or not in those times, but twins, without a dr or a master, would probably kill most women let alone a very young one like Lyanna.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm sure this though has been posted here, and I don't really think its true, but, could Aegon and Jon be twins? My reason for thinking this would be that Septa Lemore is really Ashara Dayne and when Ned came to Starfall he brought both babies. His promise to Lyanna was to keep them safe, but separate them, especially because Jon had the Stark look and Aegon has the Targaryen look. Being that Ashara just lost her child, she would be able to nurse Aegon and keep him safe in exile, as opposed to staying at Starfall with a Targ looking kid.

Somehow Varys, who's motives still aren't known, catches wind of the plot or at least Ashara Dayne being spotted in the free cities with a Targ looking baby and confronts her, brings her to Pentos where she stays at Illyrios manse until Jon Connington comes in the picture. Obviously, now, being used in the Mummer's game.

I know childbirth was hard on a woman regardless of it being twins or not in those times, but twins, without a dr or a master, would probably kill most women let alone a very young one like Lyanna.

I've heard the twin thing before, but I don't buy it. I don't think it would have been possible from birth to know which baby would inherit which look. In fact, I think that's why the "Ashara is Jon's mother" theory exists at all — if Jon grew up to look Targ-like, people could assume he'd gotten Dayne features.

And more than that, the complication is just too, too, too much.