R+L=J v.23

[Ceri]

Regarding Jon's fate, the one reason that I think he may actually be dead (though he won't stay dead) is because then his duty to the Night's Watch would end. The Watch ends with death. So, if he is dead and somehow brought back to life, either by Mel or some other means, then his is no longer beholden to the NW. This frees him up to do whatever it is he is supposed to do, whether that is to rule on the Iron Throne or die (again) fighting the Others, or whatever destiny has in store for him.

I've read that same theory somewhere before, but it doesn't strike me as likely simply because it seems like an incredibly cheesy way to get around Jon's NW oath. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for him to be free to ride south and do whatever he likes, be the King of the North in Winterfell, hire Arya to kill whomever displeases him, talk to Bran through the tree in the godswood, and so on, but GRRM is rarely this considerate of our fangirl feelings about characters we luurve.

[Euphail]

I've read that same theory somewhere before, but it doesn't strike me as likely simply because it seems like an incredibly cheesy way to get around Jon's NW oath. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for him to be free to ride south and do whatever he likes, be the King of the North in Winterfell, hire Arya to kill whomever displeases him, talk to Bran through the tree in the godswood, and so on, but GRRM is rarely this considerate of our fangirl feelings about characters we luurve.

It may be more complicated than that. If he "died" and his watch were at an end, and then he came back - I don't think he would want to leave. I think he takes his owth seriously, but what his brothers would do is another matter. He may be driven from the wall.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Wanted to point this out, haven't read the other 22 threads so maybe it's not new....

The TV show hasn't mentioned L and R much at all. Not sure if that means anything though about his parentage or if they're just keeping the show plot more focused.

I think it is due to the fact that it is harder to allude to it in the show. It would be too obvious to viewers, unlike the subtle hints placed in the books for readers. There are a few things that stand out to me in the show, but I may be bias considering I'm already a firm believer in the theory.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Regarding the HBO series, while Ned's thoughts are hidden from the audience and a Tower of Joy flashback may very well reveal the secret too soon, the second episode of the first season ("The Kingsroad") is quite suggestive of R+L=J, IMO. Sean Bean's Ned looks like he's about to cry when he tells Jon the two of them will speak of Jon's mother when he returns, even dropping a line that's practically a waving red flag to R+L=J theorists--"I promise." This scene cuts directly to Ned stonewalling Robert about Wylla, Jon's supposed mother, and an argument wherein Robert's hatred of the Targaryens for Rhaegar's unspecified crimes against Lyanna leads into him wanting Dany dead before she whelps more Targaryens to threaten his rule.

:agree:

Ned telling Jon, "You may not have my name, but you have my blood.", was epic IMO!

And one of the questions GRRM asked the writers of the show was, "Who are Jon Snow's parents?"

[Serie]

:agree:

Ned telling Jon, "You may not have my name, but you have my blood.", was epic IMO!

And one of the questions GRRM asked the writers of the show was, "Who are Jon Snow's parents?"

you know, I asked the very same question in a survey I did and I was feeling guilty because it looked like a spoiler to me. I mean, if Ned was the father what's the point in asking? to see if they really read the book? so I slightly altered the question to "who's Jon's mother".

People answered all possible things! from Lyanna to wylla, "some pirate girl", "that kind lady friend of his".... one even said maester Luwin :P

[Targ the Warg]

I've read that same theory somewhere before, but it doesn't strike me as likely simply because it seems like an incredibly cheesy way to get around Jon's NW oath. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for him to be free to ride south and do whatever he likes, be the King of the North in Winterfell, hire Arya to kill whomever displeases him, talk to Bran through the tree in the godswood, and so on, but GRRM is rarely this considerate of our fangirl feelings about characters we luurve.

I actually do think that Jon's fate lies at the wall in that he will be instrumental in the war with the others and I'm not sure he will survive the series. I don't see him sitting on the iron throne--although I do think book 5 spent a lot of time talking about his leadership skills-- or marrying Dany or any of that "fan girl" stuff. But, I do think GRRM usually has characters die for a reason and if Jon is dead, the purpose of that may free him from his oath at the wall. He thought of leaving twice before and the only thing that kept him at the wall was his oath. If his oath is no longer valid and that was all that was holding him there, why would he feel the need to stay with the NW?

[Targ the Warg]

Regarding the secrecy around Jon's parentage, I think there is another angle to look at as well. Maybe Ned was also trying to protect Jon from himself. I mean, look at all the other remaining Targs, with the exception of Maester Aemon, they all have decided to they will make a move for the throne. It ended up in the death of at least one (Viserys), and I suspect it won't end well for Aegon, if he is indeed a Targ. Ned may have been protecting Jon by keeping him ignorant of his lineage so he wouldn't feel compelled to reclaim the throne and wouldn't feel the need to seek revenge, both of which are dangerous propositions.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regarding the secrecy around Jon's parentage, I think there is another angle to look at as well. Maybe Ned was also trying to protect Jon from himself. I mean, look at all the other remaining Targs, with the exception of Maester Aemon, they all have decided to they will make a move for the throne. It ended up in the death of at least one (Viserys), and I suspect it won't end well for Aegon, if he is indeed a Targ. Ned may have been protecting Jon by keeping him ignorant of his lineage so he wouldn't feel compelled to reclaim the throne and wouldn't feel the need to seek revenge, both of which are dangerous propositions.

I think this is a definite possibility, and I also think it explains why Ned was more willing to let Jon go to the Wall at such a young age. He was iffy about it, sure, but on the Wall, Jon wouldn't be targeted or be used in a coup plot.

[Alia of the knife]

you know, I asked the very same question in a survey I did and I was feeling guilty because it looked like a spoiler to me. I mean, if Ned was the father what's the point in asking? to see if they really read the book? so I slightly altered the question to "who's Jon's mother".

People answered all possible things! from Lyanna to wylla, "some pirate girl", "that kind lady friend of his".... one even said maester Luwin :P

"that kind lady friend?"

Wow, she must have been "kind" indeed. :D

[Exitao]

I think that Jon's "death" would only serve to release him from his vows if:

a) Mel removes his body before reviving him.

-OR-

B) A new lord commander is elected before revivification.

[kg1982]

I think that people are over thinking the whole Watch situation. Getting assassinated by your sworn brothers means that they don't want you on the Wall even if you are the magical savior who gets resurrected by fire and ice. In fact, being a magical savior makes people even more likely to throw you off the Wall. I think that it would be awesome and very evocative for his body to be kept in the Ice Cells and then resurrected through fire, but that isn't necessary to get him off the Wall. Jon's time on the Wall is done and the Wall itself will probably fall at the end of Winds of Winter. I'm assuming that Asha will be the final POV on the Wall and will end up describing the epic last stand of Stannis Baratheon.

[eivers]

Maybe another LC is elected while Jon is out of action. So when Jon is healed/resurrected the Watch is left in an unprecedented situation. Realizing that he could be more use in gather support for the wall he agrees to leave the watch.

[Lord Ben]

If he wants the throne and has even a mild chance at it the Nights Watch has no ability to hold a man with an army to his vows. They're pitiful few people and Aemon was offered a way out too if he wanted it, they said the Septon could absolve him of his vows but he refused.

If they want him as a King the only thing that could stop him would be his own decision to uphold and honor them.

[Euphail]

If he wants the throne and has even a mild chance at it the Nights Watch has no ability to hold a man with an army to his vows. They're pitiful few people and Aemon was offered a way out too if he wanted it, they said the Septon could absolve him of his vows but he refused.

If they want him as a King the only thing that could stop him would be his own decision to uphold and honor them.

Aemon was offered to be absolved of his Maester's vows. He took his Nights Watch vows after that - That said, I understand the point you're getting at.

I think it's different for Jon though, and should be different for men of then nights watch - specifically those who took their vows in from of a weirwood. They may forget their vows, but the trees remember.

[Bushido]

Why would you think Jon has work outside NW?

Even if indeed Rhaegar'a son,do you think he'd insist on another child to secure the throne?

Everything is about the prophecy.

Remember Maester Aemon's words when he says his place is on the Wall? They have been acting deliberately.

Breaking the vows shouldn't be even considered.

Naturally,GRRM's magic has NO rules,which helps him retain vast amount of possibilities.

[The guy from the Vale]

Actually, GRRM's magic has at least one rule: only death can pay for life. More to the point, all magic comes at a cost, and it is extremely hard to control.

[Lady Octarina]

I think it's different for Jon though, and should be different for men of then nights watch - specifically those who took their vows in from of a weirwood. They may forget their vows, but the trees remember.

Which brings a curious question, since Bloodraven and Bran are now behind the trees :cool4:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Totally off-topic, but if you guys are interested in that sort of thing, try to find Tze's post where she suggests that only the weirwood-sworn Night's Watch guys are "real" and that only they can actually kill/fight the Others successfully.

[Bushido]

^ I can see how that could be possible,yes.

Maybe that doesn't give them special powers or something but does give necessary insight,they are more willing to see the true enemy.

[The guy from the Vale]

Totally off-topic, but if you guys are interested in that sort of thing, try to find Tze's post where she suggests that only the weirwood-sworn Night's Watch guys are "real" and that only they can actually kill/fight the Others successfully.

I really like to that idea. The NW is a First Men institution originally, and took much of its power from the connection to the Children. So who is left at the Wall who still swore in front of the heart tree? Jon, the NW wildlings, anyone else? The Ol Bear is dead, Benjen missing, Sam far in the south.

Well, we'll see what might happen early on in tWoW. Interesting times at the Wall, but as they say on the Counterweight Continent, interesting times are no good times...