R+L=J v.23

[Melifeather]

Totally off-topic, but if you guys are interested in that sort of thing, try to find Tze's post where she suggests that only the weirwood-sworn Night's Watch guys are "real" and that only they can actually kill/fight the Others successfully.

^ I can see how that could be possible,yes.

Maybe that doesn't give them special powers or something but does give necessary insight,they are more willing to see the true enemy.

Boy, if that's true that would really suck...for the realm, as the ratio of men at the Wall that swore before the weirwoods versus the seven is very small.

[Serie]

Totally off-topic, but if you guys are interested in that sort of thing, try to find Tze's post where she suggests that only the weirwood-sworn Night's Watch guys are "real" and that only they can actually kill/fight the Others successfully.

and this goes so well with the quote of Qhorin when he picked Jon to go with him. Didn't he say something like "because the Stark gods are strong beyond the Wall"?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

and this goes so well with the quote of Qhorin when he picked Jon to go with him. Didn't he say something like "because the Stark gods are strong beyond the Wall"?

Yeah, that too.

If I remember correctly, Tze's premise was that it wasn't the obsidian in and of itself that was deadly, but obsidian wielded by someone who said vows in front of a weirwood tree. We saw this already, with Sam killing an Other with obsidian (and really, why have Sam say his vows to a weirwood if it wouldn't mean something later?). Waymar Royce fought an Other with a normal sword and it shattered. Being from the Vale, he'd've said his vows with the septon. But how would he have fared with an obsidian sword? How would Sam have fared with a normal sword? The hint that where/how the vows are said matters, and not just the obsidian, is that some of the wildlings have obsidian weapons, but there's no indication that they know that obsidian can kill Others. No indication that they hoard obsidian or realize what it can do.

The Children of the Forest used to give the Night's Watch men 100 obsidian daggers every year. When you say your oath to a weirwood, it'd be the Children who would "hear" it. This suggests that the obsidian daggers are to be used in conjunction with saying your vows to the old gods. A vow to the Seven, who don't exist, would not have the same supernatural power as a weirwood vow.

Funny (?) enough, most of the Night's Watch men who died fighting the wildlings were those who would have said their vows with a septon. The newer recruits, like the wildlings who decide to join, go out to say their vows to the weirwood.

[borys of myr]

i'd like to chime in here. (new to the forum, good to be here)

here's my take:

Ned Stark is pained by the memory of his sister saying to him "Promise me, Ned" as the last thing she said to him. If she had a kid, those words would mean a ton because she would want Ned to keep the kid safe from Robert, who has a terrible temper and a reputation for killing Targaryens.

with that in mind...

after sacking King's Landing, Ned rode to Dorne to find Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, guarded by three members of the King's Guard, including Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Lyanna was being guarded by THREE MEMBERS OF THE KING'S GUARD!!!! why? she wasn't royalty... but maybe someone else with her was!

Ned Stark and his posse defeats the three members of the King's Guard, and only Ned and Howland Reed survive. In every place that Dayne is mentioned, it is with the utmost respect and reverence. Ned, being a super honorable guy himself, takes Dayne's sword Dawn back to the Dayne home at Starfall (in the western part of Dorne).

Pause....

Now we shift to Arya for a minute...

remember in her journey, Arya spent a brief moment with Beric Dondarrion's Brotherhood Without Banners. There she met a boy named Edric Dayne, (Edric was Beric's squire). He was described as having pale blonde hair and dark blue eyes that seemed almost purple (!!!). At that time, he told Arya that he and Jon Snow were "milk brothers", as they were both nursed at Starfall by a servant of House Dayne named Wylla. (on the way from Winterfell to King's Landing, Robert and Ned had a conversation reliving the good old days of the rebellion, and Robert asked Ned the name of the mother of his bastard, to which Ned paused before replying "Wylla")

Edric claimed this nursemaid was necessary because his own mother had no milk, but Edric's mother was NEVER SPECIFIED! All of the Dayne's mentioned in the books were his aunts and uncle - Arthur, Allyria and Ashara - but he remains the Lord of Starfall.

although it's fun to think that Edric might be a Targaryen (like as in Lyanna gave birth to two sons), its unlikely because there is a big age difference between Jon Snow and Edric - as Edric was described as a boy of 12 when he met Arya.

So here's what we know:

- we know John Snow (born in year 283) was born at the end of Robert's Rebellion (lasted from 282 to 283)

- we know Ned married Catelyn stark DURING the rebellion, because it was after his older brother Brandon was killed by King Aerys (which touched off the rebellion); and we know he's an honorable guy, so it is unlikely that he would bang another chick so soon after his marriage.

- we know that Ned only rode to Dorne to find Lyanna directly AFTER the rebellion, so he was not there long enough to father Jon Snow.

- we know that Lyanna was guarded by the knigsguard, and since she was not royalty (Targaryen) we have to assume that there was some royalty with her, though no other Targaryen was ever mentioned being present.

- we know Arhtur Dayne's sword Dawn was special (might be joined with longclaw at some point to form flaming sword - as Dawn is not passed through family, but to the next worthy warrior)

- we know that on the way back, Ned stopped at Starfall to drop off the sword Dawn and Jon Snow suckled from Wylla.

Based on this chronology, geography and progression, I feel it is safe to say that R+L=J.

It is more of a stretch to claim Jon Snow is Azhor Ahai, though in ADWD, when Melisandre talks of looking into her fire for Azhor Ahai, all she sees is Snow. With a capital S.

[borys of myr]

oh, and in GOT when Ned and Jon Snow part, Ned tells him that the Starks had manned the wall for thousands of years, and that he was a Stark. Not that he was his son, but he was a Stark.

I apologize if any of the points made above are repeats - i tried reading most of the posts, but there are a LOT!

[Euphail]

oh, and in GOT when Ned and Jon Snow part, Ned tells him that the Starks had manned the wall for thousands of years, and that he was a Stark. Not that he was his son, but he was a Stark.

I apologize if any of the points made above are repeats - i tried reading most of the posts, but there are a LOT!

Welcome to the boards! but yes, it's all a repeat. The thread seems to repeat itself often. This is the 23rd itteration, but you summed up some of the points rather well.

[Serie]

@Boris of Myr

well done for putting all these together :D yes, these are things already mentioned but its a victory when you've assembled the puzzle all by yourself. I know I didn't :P

welcome!

[Melifeather]

I still feel like Edric Dayne is important somehow, even though it's been pointed out to me that Ashara and Allyria are his aunts, since I somehow had it in my head that Ashara was his mom. :blushing:

Something extra happened when Ned brought the Sword of the Morning back to the Dayne family. I think there was an exchange that parallels Gilly and Mance. I don't have any new theories as to the details, but there's something there. Here's something that bothers me: if Wylla was nursing Jon, how long did she nurse him? If Ned took Lyanna's baby with him, why take him to Wylla and then also take him home to Winterfell? If he was returning the Sword of the Morning after the Rebellion ended, Jon couldn't have nursed very long.

[Dragonfish]

Here's something that bothers me: if Wylla was nursing Jon, how long did she nurse him? If Ned took Lyanna's baby with him, why take him to Wylla and then also take him home to Winterfell? If he was returning the Sword of the Morning after the Rebellion ended, Jon couldn't have nursed very long.

A lot of people think Wylla was actually at the ToJ, so she would have started nursing Jon immediately.

[The guy from the Vale]

I still feel like Edric Dayne is important somehow, even though it's been pointed out to me that Ashara and Allyria are his aunts, since I somehow had it in my head that Ashara was his mom. :blushing:

Something extra happened when Ned brought the Sword of the Morning back to the Dayne family. I think there was an exchange that parallels Gilly and Mance. I don't have any new theories as to the details, but there's something there. Here's something that bothers me: if Wylla was nursing Jon, how long did she nurse him? If Ned took Lyanna's baby with him, why take him to Wylla and then also take him home to Winterfell? If he was returning the Sword of the Morning after the Rebellion ended, Jon couldn't have nursed very long.

I think Arthur Dayne sent for Wylla once it became clear Lyanna would deliver soon. So Wylla would have nursed Jon even before Ned turned up at the ToJ.

Crackpot alert: I think that in the unlikely event of a baby switch involving the Daynes, it would have been Aegon and Ashara's child. More precisely, baby Aegon could actually have been Brandon's and Ashara's, while Elia gave her stillborn daughter to Ashara. This might explain Ashara's suicide, since baby Aegon was her own child, and news of his death as well as Arthur's would have been heartbreaking for her. Still, I think this is really unlikely, as I don't even believe Ashara is dead.

[borys of myr]

If Ned took Lyanna's baby with him, why take him to Wylla and then also take him home to Winterfell? If he was returning the Sword of the Morning after the Rebellion ended, Jon couldn't have nursed very long.

i think that travel by horseback over long distances - and Dorne's desert - were pretty arduous, especially with just two men and a baby. How would Jon have otherwise survived without his mother and with no food. It stands to reason that Stark and Reed would be there for a while nursing the child - provided Wylla was not at the ToJ (which i haven't seen mentioned anywhere in the books). But the fact that Ned remembered her name in conversation with Robert, leads me to think that he spent some time around her.

Further, if Ned lingered at Starfall, it is conceivable that he actually did dishonor himself with Ashara Dayne, and that Edric Dayne may have been the product of this union. The timeline kinda matches up. Probably unlikely though.

[borys of myr]

Crackpot alert: I think that in the unlikely event of a baby switch involving the Daynes, it would have been Aegon and Ashara's child. More precisely, baby Aegon could actually have been Brandon's and Ashara's, while Elia gave her stillborn daughter to Ashara.

I believe Brandon was two years dead by this time, and the current Aegon as described in ADOD was to young to fit within the timeline to be Brandon's

[The guy from the Vale]

Brandon was one year dead, having died at the beginning of the war, which lasted a year. Aegon died at about 1, so Brandon and Ashara would have had sex one year prior - around the tourney of Harrenhal.

[Dragonfish]

Further, if Ned lingered at Starfall, it is conceivable that he actually did dishonor himself with Ashara Dayne, and that Edric Dayne may have been the product of this union. The timeline kinda matches up. Probably unlikely though.

The timeline doesn't match up at all, though. Edric Dayne is supposed to have been born a few years after Ned left Starfall.

[Teal'c]

Brandon was one year dead, having died at the beginning of the war, which lasted a year. Aegon died at about 1, so Brandon and Ashara would have had sex one year prior - around the tourney of Harrenhal.

The Red Snake did it.

[The guy from the Vale]

Then Barristan was wrong about 'Stark dishonoring Ashara'? And I really can't see him be on such amiable terms with Ned if it was him who got Ashara pregnant.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then Barristan was wrong about 'Stark dishonoring Ashara'? And I really can't see him be on such amiable terms with Ned if it was him who got Ashara pregnant.

That's not actually what he said. She was dishonored [by someone] and "turned to [a] Stark," according to Barristan. I don't think he says that a Stark dishonored her.

[The guy from the Vale]

Thanks. Might have to reread that part, then.

The Red Snake might be a possibility in that case, too. The important part of that crackpot would be baby Aegon being Ashara^s. Not that I really believe that, but still.

[Buried Treasure]

It's very possible that Barristan was wrong about 'Stark' dishonouring Ashara, he is unlikely to have actually been an eyewitness to any such event. For all we know he might have seen Ashara flirting with one of the Starks then not seen her sleeping with someone else.

I'd also like to throw in the idea that Ashara was never pregnant, but had some reason to lie to Barristan having a stillbirth. I've been half-heartedly speculating for a while now that Elia was already too ill to carry a second child to term and that the stillborn girl was actually hers. Of course, that begs the question of where they found a Targaryen looking boy to be Aegon....

eta. ... and I've been rereading the page and see that I missed that other people already mentioned the possibility that Elia had the stillborn. Great minds think alike!

[Teal'c]

Thanks. Might have to reread that part, then.

The Red Snake might be a possibility in that case, too. The important part of that crackpot would be baby Aegon being Ashara^s. Not that I really believe that, but still.

We have considered the possibility that Ashara and Elia switched babies. That would make him her nephew sired on her best friend. Interesting.