Eira Seren Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Maybe it´s to much time on my hands but I recently thought how many people here are refering to Jon as brooding emo and make fun of his endless complaining, especially at the start of the series. I just realized... wasn´t Rheagar characterized as life-long malancholic by Barristan? I know, from the initial perspective we are led to belive that this was from his upbringing as humiliated noblaman´s bastard along his half-siblings but what if this is acttually very subtle clue from GRRM that this is something inherited, very mild form of Targ insanity we are supposedly missing from Jon? Yes, Martin has certainly characters who are quite similar in acting, villains as well as heroes and this sounds incredibly far-fetched but from the the few passages, jon kinda seems to be much more like Rheagar than Ned. :agree: Arya takes after Lyanna in temperment. I wonder if Jon is also like Lyanna? Aside from his constant need to be honorable, I don't really see much resemblance to Ned. But Rhaegar's moodiness, absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I don't have anything constructive to add on the causes of Jon's moodiness but I just want to mention how hilarious I found it when Alys Karstark told Jon that he is sullen. They had been in each others company for about 2 minutes and he'd spoken like one question about how she got to the Wall - he didn't even have a chance to be sullen!Not that she is necessarily wrong, but what did she have base this conclusion on!? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corm Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 It's not uncommon in the books, Dany did something similar to Quentyn. It was probably just his appearance and tone though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaz Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I'm in the vastly outnumbered camp which does not believe R+L=J theory, though my reasons are pretty simple - I dont think Jon can end up having up a pet direwolf as well as a pet dragon -thats just 1 pet too manyIt might well be that he has to kill Ghost way before getting a dragon. If he ever gets one, that is; I'm not so sure he'll be a dragon rider, after all...maybe Jon is the only person in the world who can skinchange into a dragon.....? being a Stark (wargs/skinchangers) and a Targaryen (blood of the dragon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 maybe Jon is the only person in the world who can skinchange into a dragon.....? being a Stark (wargs/skinchangers) and a Targaryen (blood of the dragon)Bloodraven is also a Targaryen warg. A greenseer even. But I agree that these two are the most likely to warg a dragon, with Bran as a distant third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imany Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 :agree: Arya takes after Lyanna in temperment. I wonder if Jon is also like Lyanna? Aside from his constant need to be honorable, I don't really see much resemblance to Ned. But Rhaegar's moodiness, absolutely.I thought about this, but I think that Jon might be like young Ned a little bit, mostly that young Ned is referred to as 'the quiet wolf' in Meera's and Jojen's story, and Jon is definitely a quiet wolf (see: Ghost). There isn't much said about young Ned besides that, but certainly Jon and Ned are similar in having thrown away honor for a more pressing reason (although the defense of the Wall vs saving the last of Rhaegar's children might not be quite on par... or maybe they are.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I think that Aemon doesn't suspect that Jon is Rhaegar's son. I believe Aemon sees Jon as a potentially great leader that he needs to guide. But he doesn't suspect that he is a Targ. The interesting thing about Jon is that the people who would generally question his heritage are as oblivious as everyone else namely Varys and Aemon.As for Jon's mannerisms, they do jive with what we know about Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyMary Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 The Robert who ordered the death of Dany was a drunkard and a failure, who has been a crappy king in a crappy marriage for 14 years. He wasn't the same man that took the throne and when younger may not have made the same choices. The young Robert who saw himself as a hero who fought against a tyrant may not have made the choice to order the death of a babe.The fact that he didn't mourn the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys doesn't mean he would have ordered them killed. He refused to look at the bodies because he was ashamed of what was done in his name. Looking away was the start of his moral decline and possibly that weakness was the seed for his later bitterness.Robert didn't want to look at the corpses because he didn't want to face what had happened to them, but he still called them "dragon spawn". Robert's wrath against Rhaegar was so vast that he could convince himself that it was okay to let Rhaegar's children be murdered because they were dragon spawn. If he felt ashamed, he could have done something to make it right, at least treated the dead respectfully rather than calling them dragon spawn. No, I think he was perfectly happy to deny the horror of what had been done to those children because he hated Rhaegar that much and because he feared the Rhaegar's "dragon spawn" would serve as a rallying point for those who were disgruntled that Robert was crowned King.In any case, Ned had good reason to believe that a living child of Rhaegar would not be safe in view of Robert's own disdain for the Targaryens.If Lyanna hadn't made Ned swear to secrecy and Robert had learned of Jon then there is reason to think he wouldn't have gone through with murdering him. Robert would have been angry, but he could have gotten over that. The child was Ned's nephew & killing Jon would lose Robert his best friend and forced one of generals to oppose him (killing a lords innocent relatives is not something kings can do lightly, as Robert himself knew well). Had Lyanna lived it's even more unlikely Robert would have ordered Jon's death, he would have had to order her (the woman he thought he loved) child's death to her face.But Lyanna was dying, and no parent wants to leave their without their personal protection. So she wanted secrecy, because that is the greatest guarantee of safety.I think it's likely that Robert would have seen Ned's protection of Rhaegar's dragon spawn - a babe born of "rape", to be an act of treason. He would have felt betrayed and perhaps justified in killing Jon as an act of vengeance for Rhaegar's "kidnap and rape" of poor Lyanna. Imagine how Robert would have felt knowing his "brother" Ned and the person dearest to him in the world, would betray him that way. That's the sort of thing that makes men react in extremes. Robert might not just have killed Jon, but also Ned - banished to the Wall or dead, the latter would have made him feel guilt after the fact, but given Robert's temperament, I think he would have reacted badly to discovery that Ned was protecting a son of Rhaegar, even if that son was also Ned's nephew and the child of the woman the Robert loved and lost.Anyway, we can't know for sure what Robert would have done, but we do know that Ned had reason to fear Robert's reaction to finding out about Jon. And, even if Ned wasn't the kind of guy who would lie to protect his family which he did, he was the kind of guy who would keep a promise especially to someone he loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyMary Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 edit. doublepost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Doug Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 A little off topic.......but how sweet would it have been to have seen a Robert v. Ned duel over the fate of Jon Snow. This is ridonkulous, I know, but would have been sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Octarina Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 There's still the chance that he'd recognize family traits or features of some kind. Seriously, I think that's why Aemon is blind.I agree. And is it just me, or does Jon have something of Aegon V?I really don't think Aemon's advice to kill the boy and let the man be born were just a coincidence arising from a similarity of situations...I'm not saying he had any idea that Jon was his great-great-nephew or something, just that he might have sensed something in Jon that reminded him of Egg.I don't have anything constructive to add on the causes of Jon's moodiness but I just want to mention how hilarious I found it when Alys Karstark told Jon that he is sullen. They had been in each others company for about 2 minutes and he'd spoken like one question about how she got to the Wall - he didn't even have a chance to be sullen!Not that she is necessarily wrong, but what did she have base this conclusion on!? :dunno:Hadn't she met him in Winterfell when they were younger? Maybe she remembered something from his behavior back then that led to this conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyMary Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 ...Hadn't she met him in Winterfell when they were younger? Maybe she remembered something from his behavior back then that led to this conclusion.Yes. She had visited Winterfell as a little girl. If I recall correctly, Alys reminded Jon that she had danced with him and with Robb and that Robb was charming and Jon was sullen, or something. Her father remarked that Jon's sullenness was because he was bastard born. She was sort of joking about it a little bit.I don't think she meant that Jon was acting sullen there at the Wall as an 18 year old man. She was pleading for his help and I really don't think she would risk insulting the only man who could help her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I think Aemon suspected that there was something about Jon anyway, he must have been aware of some of the BR mojo working for Jon. I don´t think there was anyone left who knew BR as well as Aemon.Yes, there was that "throw-away" line of Aemons to Jon about a chapter in a book Aemon had bookmarked for Jon to read.That line more than anything hinted to me that Aemon might have suspected who Jon was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitao Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Yes, there was that "throw-away" line of Aemons to Jon about a chapter in a book Aemon had bookmarked for Jon to read.That line more than anything hinted to me that Aemon might have suspected who Jon was.I forget if they revealed what the reference was in ADWD... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Yes, there was that "throw-away" line of Aemons to Jon about a chapter in a book Aemon had bookmarked for Jon to read.That line more than anything hinted to me that Aemon might have suspected who Jon was.Can you remind me what the line was? I thought he directed Jon at the fact that Stannis' sword is fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitao Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Can you remind me what the line was? I thought he directed Jon at the fact that Stannis' sword is fake.In AFFC, as Sam and Aemon are leaving for the Citadel, Aemon tells Jon he left him a book and that he had his lackey mark the page for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG LYANNA Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 This is my first time posting in a forum, EVER - but I have been lurking this topic for about a month or so.I've been suspicious about Jon's mother, and about Lyanna's mysterious death & all of Ned's guilt & promises, but the possibility that Ned wasn't Jon's bio-dad did not occur to me until finding this forum.I think the R+L=J theory makes almost perfect sense. Everything! Starting from the vague knowledge given on Jon's parentage, Ned's guilt-wracked conscience and silence about Jon's mother, the scene at the ToJ, etc, etcI have some doubts, however.First, I am not sure if Jon being a Targaryen necessarily means he's AA, since Aemon believed it would be Dany - & actually, she DID wake dragon's out of stone, but she is missing the sword. But I guess that is nether here, nor there.I wanted to discuss this a little further:Robert didn't want to look at the corpses because he didn't want to face what had happened to them, but he still called them "dragon spawn". Robert's wrath against Rhaegar was so vast that he could convince himself that it was okay to let Rhaegar's children be murdered because they were dragon spawn. If he felt ashamed, he could have done something to make it right, at least treated the dead respectfully rather than calling them dragon spawn. No, I think he was perfectly happy to deny the horror of what had been done to those children because he hated Rhaegar that much and because he feared the Rhaegar's "dragon spawn" would serve as a rallying point for those who were disgruntled that Robert was crowned King.In any case, Ned had good reason to believe that a living child of Rhaegar would not be safe in view of Robert's own disdain for the Targaryens.I think it's likely that Robert would have seen Ned's protection of Rhaegar's dragon spawn - a babe born of "rape", to be an act of treason. He would have felt betrayed and perhaps justified in killing Jon as an act of vengeance for Rhaegar's "kidnap and rape" of poor Lyanna. Imagine how Robert would have felt knowing his "brother" Ned and the person dearest to him in the world, would betray him that way. That's the sort of thing that makes men react in extremes. Robert might not just have killed Jon, but also Ned - banished to the Wall or dead, the latter would have made him feel guilt after the fact, but given Robert's temperament, I think he would have reacted badly to discovery that Ned was protecting a son of Rhaegar, even if that son was also Ned's nephew and the child of the woman the Robert loved and lost.Anyway, we can't know for sure what Robert would have done, but we do know that Ned had reason to fear Robert's reaction to finding out about Jon. And, even if Ned wasn't the kind of guy who would lie to protect his family which he did, he was the kind of guy who would keep a promise especially to someone he loved.I am sure someone has mentioned this before, but Robert RAGES at the thought of Rhaegar and Lyanna & the countless times he must have raped her, & he is still so incredibly angry about it. Meanwhile, Ned himself never really expressed any ill feelings about Rhaegar. If we are to believe that Lyanna did not go with him willingly, Ned would have just as much cause to rage as Robert. I certainly wouldn't remember someone as being "honorable" if they kidnapped & raped someone, especially one of my own family members.Besides all the multitude of clues that point to R+L=J, Ned's POV chapters and his thoughts concerning Rhaegar & Lyanna are the most important & I don't see how anyone can refute that it is at LEAST A POSSIBILITY that Ned is not Jon's biological father.My biggest worry with this theory that Jon may not live after ADWD & if he does, this whole idea becomes inconsequential. I feel like no on really dies in their own POV chapters, but I could be wrong. Technically, Catelyn doesn't truly die in her POV chapter & unless I'm recalling the tv show, Ned's death is shown from Arya's POV? I thought Theon & Bryanne were dead, but they lived. So maybe the same will happen for Jon, but I'm scared. If it does, I feel like this theory becomes a moot point. the rose symbolism is what messes with my head the most. when i looked up the meaning, i found one of them to say that blue roses represented royal blood. this would of course be a hint at Rhaegar, but what if GRRM was using the prophecy to symbolize jon's death? whenever ned thought of lyanna's death, he saw the winter roses. so maybe it only means that another child of the north was going to die :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 @eymomo,Welcome to the forum.I wouldn't be worried about Jon. I don't think it's a matter of if he survives, but rather a matter of how. As others have said, if Martin had meant for him to die at that point, he would've shown him to actually be dead (compare Jon's situation with Quentyn; after Quentyn's encounter, we know that he's dead). The point of a cliffhanger is to make people guess how the person will come out of a situation. You don't have a cliffhanger and then toss the guy over the cliff.I don't know who Azor Ahai is or if it really even matters. But Maester Aemon saying that it's Dany is one of the biggest reasons I think it ISN'T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG LYANNA Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 In AFFC, as Sam and Aemon are leaving for the Citadel, Aemon tells Jon he left him a book and that he had his lackey mark the page for him.I believe the quote was just about AA's sword giving off heat, to point out how Stanni's sword did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I believe the quote was just about AA's sword giving off heat, to point out how Stanni's sword did not.I don't think Lightbringer is a literal sword at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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