[Book spoilers] Gendry's apology to Arya

[a free shadow]

I am not sure it goes here, but as it is based on what we saw in the episode, I'll try and place it in this section.

It was in the book, too, but only after I saw it on screen (twice :D), a question started bothering me.

Gendry talks to Arya, says he knows that she is a girl and when she denies it, he asks her to prove it you-know-how. He also was not bothered to piss in front of her when he already knew she was not a boy. But when he learns she is a highborn, he starts apologizing and panicking, and he wants to spare her any inconvienience. What is going on here? Shouldn't everyone be equally concerned for any girl/child/human being?

I know panick is understandable on his side, the need to show manners... hm. Suddenly strenghtened concern is not... Is it what people simply do? Give more to those who already have enough?

[Jerritus]

I am not sure it goes here, but as it is based on what we saw in the episode, I'll try and place it in this section.

It was in the book, too, but only after I saw it on screen (twice :D), a question started bothering me.

Gendry talks to Arya, says he knows that she is a girl and when she denies it, he asks her to prove it you-know-how. He also was not bothered to piss in front of her when he already knew she was not a boy. But when he learns she is a highborn, he starts apologizing and panicking, and he wants to spare her any inconvienience. What is going on here? Shouldn't everyone be equally concerned for any girl/child/human being?

I know panick is understandable on his side, the need to show manners... hm. Suddenly strenghtened concern is not... Is it what people simply do? Give more to those who already have enough?

It might have something to do with the fact that Arya's brother is a king and has the power to end his life without second thought or any consequences. (yes I know if Robb actually went and killed Gendry it would be out of character, possibly cause all sorts of trouble to his rule etc etc, but Gendry doesnt know that.)

[boojam]

I am not sure it goes here, but as it is based on what we saw in the episode, I'll try and place it in this section.

It was in the book, too, but only after I saw it on screen (twice :D), a question started bothering me.

Gendry talks to Arya, says he knows that she is a girl and when she denies it, he asks her to prove it you-know-how. He also was not bothered to piss in front of her when he already knew she was not a boy. But when he learns she is a highborn, he starts apologizing and panicking, and he wants to spare her any inconvienience. What is going on here? Shouldn't everyone be equally concerned for any girl/child/human being?

I know panick is understandable on his side, the need to show manners... hm. Suddenly strenghtened concern is not... Is it what people simply do? Give more to those who already have enough?

George is using the high middle ages as a template, and yeah , sorry to say, people were imprinted to think of the high born that way. In fact the class differences were even worse than that. Thank you lucky stars you live in the modern world.

[Sixshells]

Low-borns are not entitled the same amount of respect and deference as high-borns, even a little girl of ten. It's as simple as that. I also think the excuse is clumsy to translate Gendry's surprise at discovering a noble girl, the daughter of a man who went to see him not so long ago, in the convoy: he doesn't know how to behave properly in such a strange situation (stranger than having a commoner girl going around in boy's clothes).

[Milcov]

I am not sure it goes here, but as it is based on what we saw in the episode, I'll try and place it in this section.

It was in the book, too, but only after I saw it on screen (twice :D), a question started bothering me.

Gendry talks to Arya, says he knows that she is a girl and when she denies it, he asks her to prove it you-know-how. He also was not bothered to piss in front of her when he already knew she was not a boy. But when he learns she is a highborn, he starts apologizing and panicking, and he wants to spare her any inconvienience. What is going on here? Shouldn't everyone be equally concerned for any girl/child/human being?

I know panick is understandable on his side, the need to show manners... hm. Suddenly strenghtened concern is not... Is it what people simply do? Give more to those who already have enough?

In a land where the lowborn don't even have surnames are you surprised that a highborn girl is afforded more than any other little girl? Look at Theon killing the Millers children, it didn't matter as they were lowborn and look at the Hound riding down Mycah and how no one other than Arya cares about it. If you aren't highborn you don't matter.

[zippypoodle]

The crying Ros scene backs all this up. None of the rich and powerful people cared about Barra's death. Only the whore.

[Hear Us Roar]

He thought she was like him a low born nobody.

Highborn are in another league

[Hear Us Roar]

The crying Ros scene backs all this up. None of the rich and powerful people cared about Barra's death. Only the whore.

not many would care today unfortunately, not just the wealthy

[girlfrommonday]

Low-borns are more close to each other, in terms of bodies. For example, they can live in one room etc. I don't think they piss in front of others constantly, but they not keeping all this "savoir-vivre" rules. They just see each other constantly. Girls from noble family growing up more separated from another sex. Although for every girl piss-situation is inconvienient, I can imagine that highborn girl could freak out.

[a free shadow]

In a land where the lowborn don't even have surnames are you surprised that a highborn girl is afforded more than any other little girl? Look at Theon killing the Millers children, it didn't matter as they were lowborn and look at the Hound riding down Mycah and how no one other than Arya cares about it. If you aren't highborn you don't matter.

"Afforded more"? Could you please say it in other words? I do not really understad :blush: And I am not that much surprised, more confused. And more in terms of life in general than this scene. Regarding the examples you cite, they were about what highborns choose to do with lowborns, not how lowborns threat each other and highborns. Gendry seems decent and even kind, but he was not interested in sparing a girl, however nice she was, until he learned she was highborn. It was not fair. Especially coming from him.

[Silverx2]

Since Arya Is a highborn, she is given special privileged. By being in her favor a person might be granted gifts, or favors. Highborns are seen as a higher class of people.

I guess the simplest way to say it is a highborn is like a Prized steed, while a commoner is like a cow. One is expensive, highly sought after, the other is used to make food.

[Maginor]

I don't think that Gendry saw it as disrespectful to piss in front of a girl in the first place. Could he really cause any harm by doing that? But society has taught him that highborn girls are porcelain dolls that one should be very careful with.

[Silverx2]

I loved the way gendry teased her at the end of the scene.

I should be calling you milady

dont call me milady!

as milady commands

*Shove*

oh well that wasnt very lady like.

It goes great with things he says in the next book when they meet up with TBWB

[Victaerys Ironfist]

Nah man, aSoIaF and GoT is based in a time when the smallfolk would rever, if not have a great amount of fear or respect, highborn people just for the sake of being highborn. Arya is also irritated by this as she a) doesn't want Gendry to act out-of-the-ordinary around her for fear of her being found out, and B) she doesn't like being thought of as "meek and lovely" like Sansa.

[Sixshells]

"Afforded more"? Could you please say it in other words? I do not really understad :blush: And I am not that much surprised, more confused. And more in terms of life in general than this scene. Regarding the examples you cite, they were about what highborns choose to do with lowborns, not how lowborns threat each other and highborns. Gendry seems decent and even kind, but he was not interested in sparing a girl, however nice she was, until he learned she was highborn. It was not fair. Especially coming from him.

He is from a city where promiscuity is chronic and that is full of orphans fending off for themselves and most likely not always able to hide to piss and shit (think about homeless people nowadays. Who cares that some of them are girls? Especially if she tries to pass of as a boy, it's completely at her risks and perils. Also, the people in the convoy to the Wall don't expect to have much privacy. Think about how Arya could not risk to take a bath at the inn because she would have had to show herself naked and break her cover.

Gendry is actually being decent enough since he did not reveal her disguise even before knowing she was highborn, nor does he try to take advantage of his knowledge of her secrets.

[Call me Odie]

Caring about taking a piss in front of someone is actually quite 19th century bourgeois. Earlier no one really cared, except the church, especially not peasants and workers. The only important thing was to not take a piss in front of anyone with a higher rank if you could avoid it.

[Envie]

Regarding the examples you cite, they were about what highborns choose to do with lowborns, not how lowborns threat each other and highborns. Gendry seems decent and even kind, but he was not interested in sparing a girl, however nice she was, until he learned she was highborn. It was not fair. Especially coming from him.

Why do you think its especially unfair coming from Gendry? You do realize Gendry has no idea he's the bastard son of a king, right? He's never been told and this has repeatedly been pointed out via the books and scenes in the series. Both hands have asked him about his Father and so has Arya. Every time he shrugs and says he doesn't know. He barely remembered his Mother who died when he was young and that's when (presumedly) the hand had him placed with the blacksmith shop as an apprentice.

As a blacksmith's apprentice, he has learned that one respects and defers to high born (nobles) because they have money and power. They come to his master's shop to buy expensive armor and weapons and their ladies are treated as fragile sensitive things not to be spoken to, let alone pissed in front of!

When Gendry begins to realize (somewhere along the journey) that Arry is actually a girl, he doesn't immediately expose her. I'm assuming he went on treating her like a boy, pissing in front of her, probably talking bawdy jokes and stuff in front of the other boys, etc. - He may not have even been certain at first if she was a girl at all. To Gendry, if she's a girl trying to pass herself off as a boy heading to the wall and the night's watch, she must be a "low-life" peasant who has something to hide as a girl. Peasant or commoner girls wouldn't have any power to be 'insulted' regardless whether or not they're offended by him pissing in front of her.

When the truth comes out who she really is, Gendry is immediately freaked out and understandably so. As others have said, she has the power (or her brother / parents do) to have him killed if she should decide to complain about any behavior he's done in front of her. I'm quite sure this fact has been 'hammered' (quite literally) into Gendry's head by his blacksmith master. You would never EVER be insulting in front of a high born, let alone a lady, and especially those who would come into your shop as potential customers. It's just a respect that's been taught to Gendry about high borns. All commoners of Westeros would grow up with this outlook I'm pretty sure.

Does this help you better understand why Gendry got more freaked out and apologized profusely after he found out who Arya really was?

I really really loved this scene in the show btw. One of the best of the entire episode. Gendry's actor is doing a fantastic job and he's SO handsome! I can almost imagine what he'd have been like as a true prince had he not been born a bastard. :) *swoon*

[a free shadow]

Why do you think its especially unfair coming from Gendry? You do realize Gendry has no idea he's the bastard son of a king, right? He's never been told and this has repeatedly been pointed out via the books and scenes in the series. Both hands have asked him about his Father and so has Arya. Every time he shrugs and says he doesn't know. He barely remembered his Mother who died when he was young and that's when (presumedly) the hand had him placed with the blacksmith shop as an apprentice.

Where did you get that I think Gendry took himself for a royal person? Him being lowborn is the very part that got me as the trickiest one. He had a clue what it was like to be threated badly. And he saw a little girl struggling to make her way to an even worse place than she was when disguising herself amongst criminals. He did not want to help her/protect her, fine. But why did he want to spare the same person only because she turned out to be highborn?

As a blacksmith's apprentice, he has learned that one respects and defers to high born (nobles) because they have money and power...

...When the truth comes out who she really is, Gendry is immediately freaked out and understandably so. As others have said, she has the power (or her brother / parents do) to have him killed if she should decide to complain about any behavior he's done in front of her.

I can uderstand the need from his part, but not the wish. Maybe I have read too much into it and it really was only a need?

Does this help you better understand why Gendry got more freaked out and apologized profusely after he found out who Arya really was?

As I've said in my first post, I understand him freaking out. But that was not his only reaction. And it somehow got me thinking about the real life and how I'll never learn.

[Independent George]

"Afforded more"? Could you please say it in other words? I do not really understad :blush: And I am not that much surprised, more confused. And more in terms of life in general than this scene. Regarding the examples you cite, they were about what highborns choose to do with lowborns, not how lowborns threat each other and highborns. Gendry seems decent and even kind, but he was not interested in sparing a girl, however nice she was, until he learned she was highborn. It was not fair. Especially coming from him.

I think he left out the word "courtesies". The highborn are afforded more courtesies than the lowborn, and women are spoken to differently than men. He's spent his entire life being deferential to the highborn, and not only was he engaging in locker-room talk with a noble, but a noble Lady.

In the right context, a common soldier can swear freely in front of a highborn officer like Jaime, but you don't ever talk like that in front of a Lady.

[Envie]

Where did you get that I think Gendry took himself for a royal person? Him being lowborn is the very part that got me as the trickiest one. He had a clue what it was like to be threated badly. And he saw a little girl struggling to make her way to an even worse place than she was when disguising herself amongst criminals. He did not want to help her/protect her, fine. But why did he want to spare the same person only because she turned out to be highborn?

I guess I mistook your last lines where you said, "It's not fair. Especially coming from him (Gendry)" to imply you thought Gendry should somehow be different in his attitudes towards a noble girl because of his own background.

The fact Gendry believes himself to be lowborn should be all the more reason it IS believable for him to be shocked and suddenly wish to treat Arya differently. Not because she's a girl, but because she's the daughter of the ex-hand of the king and a noble Lord.