Why is Jeor Mormont on the Wall?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No, Jorah was a Lord in his own right for a period of time after Jeor joined the watch - I'm not sure how many, somewhere around three to five would be my guess without looking anything up. That's about how long it took Jorah to piss away whatever wealth the Mormonts had, and finally make himself a slaver in an effort to fulfill his wife's expensive tastes.

About ten to twenty years.

Jeor joined the Watch early in Jorah's first marriage, when there was not yet a hint to their fertility problems. That marriage lasted ten years, before Jorah married Lynesse, after an appropriate period of mourning. That happened about ten years before the books, and Jorah sold the poachers at an unspecified time during these ten years.

[Mikkel]

About ten to twenty years.

Jeor joined the Watch early in Jorah's first marriage, when there was not yet a hint to their fertility problems. That marriage lasted ten years, before Jorah married Lynesse, after an appropriate period of mourning. That happened about ten years before the books, and Jorah sold the poachers at an unspecified time during these ten years.

That long? Hm. Well, at least I did put in the condition about not looking anything up, but still - that's embarrassingly off the mark!

[messem]

Yes I am projecting moral modern standards. Because these particular moral standards happen to be right. Slavery, rape, these things all suck. I can't abide whitewashing them with the excuse "it was a different time".

You are forgetting that every ALL fathers and mothers marry their daughters after their "first blood". So they actively promoting pedophilia. I assume you hate them all. If not you know what it says about you. Don't you?

Please stop applying modern day moral standards.

[GallowsKnight]

You are forgetting that every ALL fathers and mothers marry their daughters after their "first blood". So they actively promoting pedophilia. I assume you hate them all. If not you know what it says about you. Don't you?

Please stop applying modern day moral standards.

It's a thought provoking debate. Thank you for your contribution.

In universe slavery is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms. It's also likely viewed as being morally abhorrent both by followers of the Seven (ironic as Andals were slavers) and followers of the old gods. See Brandon Ice Eyes and the Wolfswood. A classical version of rape is also illegal, the first night ritual was banned and Roose is careful to hide his proclivities. Jorah and Tyrion would never be prosecuted for these actions, but I'm sure many would view it with disgust.

As for your example, that's actually more akin to statuary rape than paedophila. They are teenage (or close to) women, and the men are not specifically attracted to children. I'm not happy with the idea of that (and arranged marriages in general). But it's something that even today happens in different countries and cultures. Statutory rape is something that often Police, Doctors etc turn a blind eye to if they don't think there is abuse occurring.

The two are not the same level of horribleness. A physical assault is not the same as a murder. A statutory rape is not the same as a physically abused sex slave

Which Tyrion's girl is and by extension likley the one with Jorah.

Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me.

Slavery is the vilest human sin. It allows the normalization of physical, sexual and mental abuse of entire class of people. I will never not apply my modern moral standards to it.

[messem]

In universe slavery is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms. It's also likely viewed as being morally abhorrent both by followers of the Seven (ironic as Andals were slavers) and followers of the old gods. See Brandon Ice Eyes and the Wolfswood. A classical version of rape is also illegal, the first night ritual was banned and Roose is careful to hide his proclivities. Jorah and Tyrion would never be prosecuted for these actions, but I'm sure many would view it with disgust.

Slavery is the vilest human sin. It allows the normalization of physical, sexual and mental abuse of entire class of people. I will never not apply my modern moral standards to it.

Well, that's an easy one. Even some real life medieval societies abolished slavery and serfdom because the recognized that. So progressive medieval morals are actually good enough for that.

As for your example, that's actually more akin to statuary rape than paedophila. They are teenage (or close to) women, and the men are not specifically attracted to children. I'm not happy with the idea of that (and arranged marriages in general). But it's something that even today happens in different countries and cultures. Statutory rape is something that often Police, Doctors etc turn a blind eye to if they don't think there is abuse occurring.

While I totally understand what you are saying I have to disagree. It all depends on the definition of woman (vs. girl). The concept of adolescence is a rather new one because we know that 21-yo people come to better decisions than 14-yo people. But 30-yo-people come to better decisions than 21-yo people as well. So we defined a rather arbitrary number of years and declare people who reached this age adults. Former societies didn't do that. They took biological effects for that: the moment one was able to procreate makes one a man or woman. (although we never see a scene were boys/men are tested ;-)

So, there is no middle ground. It's either child abuse or totally fine. No such thing as statutory rape. For girls that changes from one day to another, the day they become women. Laws which respect that "natural law" are still in effect in some countries up to this date. There are several countries where the female age of consent is 14/15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age). Its 18 in New Hampshire but 14 for males and 13 for females, in cases of "special cause" with parental consent and court permission. I thought GRRM is from New Jersey :cool4:

Let me add that this behavior is reasonable. Our forefathers weren't idiots in all aspects. In a world with high a high infant and children mortality rate you need to start procreating asap. In a world where a lot of women die during childbirth it is better to get your children while you are younger and healthier. To wait until the age of 25 to have your first child (average age in the US) would be suicidal for such a society.

So, back to where we started. Do not apply modern day morals because our education and upbringing is a totally different one. You may apply them for slavery but only because there is not really a difference to a progressive medieval view.

[TheSpottedCat]

I think he probably felt that since he was advanced in years and it was time for his son to rule, while he was still young and able, that he should retire to the NW to live out the rest of his years honourably and doing something useful. This seems to be very much in tune with Northern mentality. Imagine that it was common during really harsh winters for old men in the North to say that they are "going out hunting" and never returning, i.e. they committed suicide in order to not use up supplies, thus allowing the younger generations to survive.

[Buried Treasure]

You are forgetting that every ALL fathers and mothers marry their daughters after their "first blood". So they actively promoting pedophilia. I assume you hate them all. If not you know what it says about you. Don't you?

Please stop applying modern day moral standards.

Cat was married at 18, Jeyne Westerling, Lysa Arryn and Amerei Frey (Gatehouse Ami) were all old enough to voluntarily have sex with peers before they were married off. They demonstrate that not all noble girls were married off young.

First blood is considered the age at which girls become maidens, and although commonly call that paedophilia it technically is not (it is hebephilia). The Westerosi consider do paedophilia wrong, and beyond a few individuals such as Septon Utt of the Bloody Mummers they do not approve sexual acts with prepubescent children. Maidens can be married and bedded but mostly aren't; it seems to be considered in much the same light as a guy in his 30s dating a 16/18 year old in the UK/US respectively, inappropriate but not illegal. From the Westerosi perspective, Tywin ordering Tyrion to bed Sansa was equivalent to telling him to be a creep, not a child molester.

As for the raping of slaves; I can accept that in-universe they don't have the same understanding of consent that we do today. What I don't accept is that they have a different understanding of 'cruel'. With the whore in Volantis and the bedslave in Pantos Tyrion was actively cruel to maximise the fear and suffering of his victims, which in my book is far worse in a sexual situation than whether the word 'rape' can be applied as a technical term. That makes him worse than than Jorah who was not been demonstrated to be cruel or try to incite fear in his his whore in Volantis, although Jorah has plenty of moral failings in other contexts.