Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The Ironborn don't do sieges very well. They are unmatched as naval warriors out at sea. And they are good raiders, for short incursions inland. But they don't have siege engines, and I assume Oldtown probably has the highest and strongest city walls in Westeros, being the oldest city on the continent.So I think capturing a city guarded by 10 000 men would be a tall order for the Ironmen.Euron and his man could sneack into the city by the harbour and oben secretly the gates, in this case the people of oldtown haven't any chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Euron and his man could sneack into the city by the harbour and oben secretly the gates, in this case the people of oldtown haven't any chanceTrue. But in my view Martin really overuses the "capture the city by guile or trickery" theme.How many sieges have actually been won by the attacking army through force in the entire series?Winterfell: Theon sneaks over the walls at night and captures the castle.Storms End: Davos sneaks a shadow under the walls which slays Ser Courtnay Penrose and the castle surrenders.Meereen: Barristan and Jorah sneak in through the sewers and unlocks the gates.Harrenhal: Arya sabotages the Lannister forces from within leading to the capture of the castle by the BoltonsAstapor and Yunkai: Dany tricks the masters out of their Unsullied in the former, and Belwas slays the Hero of the latter, leading to their surrender.Riverrun: Jaime uses a political bluff/threat to get Edmure to lift the siege.The Twins: Robb agrees to marry a Frey to get the gates to open for him.And we are led to believe that similarly sneaky tactics may be in store for us in Conningtons' campaign in the South.The point is, Martin cannot use the "sneak or trick yourself through the walls" solution EVERY time. At some point, a strongly defended city needs to be either captured through force, if it is to fall at all. Otherwise, the attempt must be shown as unrealistic and doomed to failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The point is, Martin cannot use the "sneak or trick yourself through the walls" solution EVERY time. At some point, a strongly defended city needs to be either captured through force, if it is to fall at all. Otherwise, the attempt must be shown as unrealistic and doomed to failure.To take a castle or a city by storm is extreme difficult and cost many men so in real world it didn't happend often before the invention of gunpowder. Starve the city is another posibility but this take time, so Martin will use sneak in again or maybe a traitor inside oldtown. Euron need a great victory to boost his position of king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jared Frey Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 They have a 0% chance of taking Oldtown.The Ironborn are about to implode and it's going to be awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 To take a castle or a city by storm is extreme difficult and cost many men so in real world it didn't happend often before the invention of gunpowder. Starve the city is another posibility but this take time, so Martin will use sneak in again or maybe a traitor inside oldtown. Euron need a great victory to boost his position of kingWell there you go. It is precisely because the capturing of a strong city is so difficult that I'm arguing that the Ironborn cannot capture Oldtown without a Dragon.Unless Martin cheats by using some sneaky trick again. Which I'm saying is growing a bit on the unbelievable side now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 They have a 0% chance of taking Oldtown.The Ironborn are about to implode and it's going to be awesome!I certianly hope so. In the long term I have no doubt that this will happen. But in the short term I think Euron is going to get Victarrion's dragon, and deliver death and devestation to large parts of the South.Else his storyline was a bit ridiculous, and really just a waste of pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Unless Martin cheats by using some sneaky trick again. Which I'm saying is growing a bit on the unbelievable side now.Like people come back of death or aren't dead at all?The ironborn take oldtown, but they will not hold the city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Like people come back of death or aren't dead at all?The ironborn take oldtown, but they will not hold the cityThere is a difference between magical and fantastical elements in the story, and the repeated use of a ploy to circumvent the need for lengthy sieges.I too think the Ironborn will devestate the South - and maybe even capture Oldtown. But I think they will use a Dragon to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jared Frey Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I certianly hope so. In the long term I have no doubt that this will happen. But in the short term I think Euron is going to get Victarrion's dragon, and deliver death and devestation to large parts of the South.Else his storyline was a bit ridiculous, and really just a waste of pages.Do you know how pissed I'd be at Moqorro for not seeing that in the fires if I was Victarion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Do you know how pissed I'd be at Moqorro for not seeing that in the fires if I was Victarion?The Dragon is bound to the Horn's Master. But Euron is the one who found the Horn, and obviously knows a lot more about it than Victarrion.The Horn's master isn't the one who blows it. So it is pretty obvious that Euron has already bound himself to the Horn as its master, and the moment Victarrion arranges for it to be blown, the Dragon is going to take off for the west and head straight for Euron.Victarrion will then be left dumbfounded, and probably die in the resulting fallout, having been manipulated by his far more intelligent brother yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jared Frey Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Yup, It's pretty obvious that Euron already bonded that thing. Shouldn't Moqorro be able to see that? That would drastically impact Victarion's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The Dragon is bound to the Horn's Master. But Euron is the one who found the Horn, and obviously knows a lot more about it than Victarrion.The Horn's master isn't the one who blows it. So it is pretty obvious that Euron has already bound himself to the Horn as its master, and the moment Victarrion arranges for it to be blown, the Dragon is going to take off for the west and head straight for Euron.Victarrion will then be left dumbfounded, and probably die in the resulting fallout, having been manipulated by his far more intelligent brother yet again.I beliefe there is no master of the horn at the moment, if it's magic why would distance to the target would affect the horn or more importand why didn't Euron sail to Dany first and come back to the Iron Islands with dragons, i think he don't know how the horn work exactly and send Victarion to Dany to get rid of him, but Victarion will bound the horn to his will and come back with dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Yup, It's pretty obvious that Euron already bonded that thing. Shouldn't Moqorro be able to see that? That would drastically impact Victarion's life.Who says Moqorro cares about Victarrion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Who says Moqorro cares about Victarrion?He is AA reborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jared Frey Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Who says Moqorro cares about Victarrion?Moqorro does. If the dragon flies off toward Pyke and Victarion is standing there looking like an idiot, where is the finger of blame going to point?Only way to avoid it is if Victarion is too stupid to realize what happened or if Moqorro disappears before it all goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I beliefe there is no master of the horn at the moment, if it's magic why would distance to the target would affect the horn or more importand why didn't Euron sail to Dany first and come back to the Iron Islands with dragons, i think he don't know how the horn work exactly and send Victarion to Dany to get rid of him, but Victarion will bound the horn to his will and come back with dragonsUnlikely. Victarrion has been shown to be somewhat slow witted. Great when dealign with direct threats, but not the mastermind behind an Ironborn invasion.Euron knows his pressure points, and knows how to manipulate him. He also knows Victarrion hates him, and that Victarrion will sieze the first opportunity to try and claim the dragons for himself.Euron's entire plan hinges on Dragons. He has no hope of prevailing against the rest of Westeros without them. Why would he trust Victarrion for all of this, after he had so carefully planned everything else?What, did he think that after giving the Horn to Victarrion, Victarrion would bind the Dragons and just meekly hand them over to Euron upon his return? Of course not.Euron is the Horn's Master. That is pretty obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 He is AA reborn(Chokes on his coffee!)Ok, THAT one I haven't heard before. Gave me a good chuckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Moqorro does. If the dragon flies off toward Pyke and Victarion is standing there looking like an idiot, where is the finger of blame going to point?Only way to avoid it is if Victarion is too stupid to realize what happened or if Moqorro disappears before it all goes down.Moqorro is a fanatic. He probably cares about the fire and blood that the Dragon will unleash more than he does about his own well being. Besides, like Mellisandre, he may be able to see his own future to some extent, and know how things will pan out for him, and how to slip away when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (Chokes on his coffee!) Ok, THAT one I haven't heard before. Gave me a good chuckle. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/Theories#Victarion_Greyjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Unlikely. Victarrion has been shown to be somewhat slow witted. Great when dealign with direct threats, but not the mastermind behind an Ironborn invasion. Euron knows his pressure points, and knows how to manipulate him. He also knows Victarrion hates him, and that Victarrion will sieze the first opportunity to try and claim the dragons for himself. Euron's entire plan hinges on Dragons. He has no hope of prevailing against the rest of Westeros without them. Why would he trust Victarrion for all of this, after he had so carefully planned everything else? What, did he think that after giving the Horn to Victarrion, Victarrion would bind the Dragons and just meekly hand them over to Euron upon his return? Of course not. Euron is the Horn's Master. That is pretty obvious. Euron is no player and no mastermind or a maester he is depend of his foreign crew to know anything about the horn so I don't belief he knows all it's just a prob for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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