Tytos Lannister was a Fool

[greygnarl]

I know that this is widely known but I think he has serious problems.

He agreed to wed Genna, a daughter of the Lord of Casterly Rock, to some non-heir Frey.

He probably could have gotten her a husband from one of the Great Houses.

[Fat Mac]

He also loaned money that was never payed back- which he never enforced. He also let one of his paramours influence him greatly. If it wasn't for Tywin, the Tarbecks and Reynes might still be running rampant while the Lannister house was slowly brought to ruin.

Also- this is not quite his fault, but he did give the Cleganes land, which gave them power. Then along came Gregor...

[Hear Us Roar]

Yup. It is why tywin is the way he is. He had to compensate for all the weakness of his father because no one took their house seriously.

[LuisDantas]

While that is all true, Tywin looks like a far greater fool to me.

A competent fool in some respects, mind you. But still very much a bigger, more destructive fool than his father. Except perhaps for Petyr Baelish, Tywin is the most guilty person for the current sad shape of Westeros. And all for a twisted, pathological sense of entitlement and honor.

For all his shortcomings, Tytos never came anywhere close to that level of foolishness.

[Thendel]

I think the only commendable decision he ever made was to let Tywin marry Joanna. Kevan marrying Dorna Swyft was decent enough, though that one might not have occurred until after Tytos' death (their eldest child, Lancel, is only sixteen at the time of Clash).

[Stannis is the Mannis]

While that is all true, Tywin looks like a far greater fool to me.

A competent fool in some respects, mind you. But still very much a bigger, more destructive fool than his father. Except perhaps for Petyr Baelish, Tywin is the most guilty person for the current sad shape of Westeros. And all for a twisted, pathological sense of entitlement and honor.

For all his shortcomings, Tytos never came anywhere close to that level of foolishness.

Excellent point. Tywin is no dummy, but he accomplishes very little to be proud of.

[The Frosted King]

Tytos was soft of head and heart, the west was weakest under his rule.

Tywin was hard of head and heart, and the realm lies broken due to his children.

And Petyr is enormously guilty(praying he sits on a rusty sword soon), but even if he hadn't killed Jon Arryn, war was looming, only it would've been Robert and the realm against the Lannisters. Which might seem like a wash for the Baratheon dynasty, but the wealth of Casterly Rock could've brought swords from across the water.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tytos Lannister was a decent guy. Maybe a weak Lord, but no lasting harm done. Tywin Lannister may still cause the Lannister to loose the Rock.

[James Arryn]

He probably could have gotten her a husband from one of the Great Houses.

True enough, but if we examine the instances of intermarriages between great houses in the recent past, it hasn't exactly been a bounty of happy endings.

[Hear Us Roar]

While that is all true, Tywin looks like a far greater fool to me.

A competent fool in some respects, mind you. But still very much a bigger, more destructive fool than his father. Except perhaps for Petyr Baelish, Tywin is the most guilty person for the current sad shape of Westeros. And all for a twisted, pathological sense of entitlement and honor.

For all his shortcomings, Tytos never came anywhere close to that level of foolishness.

Tywin increased his power and control over his bannermen. He also managed to single-handedly restore the family honor and fortunes from near ruin.

He kept the realm secure during his reign as King's hand for 20 years. During the rebellion he stayed out of and kept his men and lands free of blood, till the very end when the victor was known.

Married his daughter to the King making her a queen[ marital issues and incest could not have been forseen]

Kingdom went broke under Robert and he lent them money securing the lands.

He is not loved by all but is respected. he does what it takes to secure his house and Westeros.

You call him a fool and Tytos not a fool on the level?

Tytos bankrupted his house and the influence of his lands. Let his concubine rule and his banner men to do whatever they wanted.

Tywin is one the most competent characters in the books

The ones with a twisted pathological sense of honour are

Stannis

Eddard Stark

Rob Stark

Jon Snow

[LuisDantas]

Tywin increased his power and control over his bannermen. He also managed to single-handedly restore the family honor and fortunes from near ruin.

And except than the gold, all of that turned out a disaster. A very shameful disaster.

The honor of House Lannister is a joke now, and unlikely to ever recover, thanks to too many manipulations and shady actions from Tywin himself and Cersei.

His armies have been devastated by the war he waged out of ambition and greed. His lands are likewise scorched by the war, and the whole of Westeros faces the spectre of a famine that could have been avoided.

To boot, on a personal level, he rose two sons and a daughter that have each been ruined by his example.

So no, I don't see how he can be said to have done better than his father.

He kept the realm secure during his reign as King's hand for 20 years. During the rebellion he stayed out of and kept his men and lands free of blood, till the very end when the victor was known.

Married his daughter to the King making her a queen[ marital issues and incest could not have been forseen]

I wonder. I have recently concluded that much of their incest was a way to cope with the impossible pressures of being Tywin's offspring.

Kingdom went broke under Robert and he lent them money securing the lands.

He is not lobed by all but is respected.

Feared, not respected.

Hardly anyone respects Tywin, although there are many who fear him.

he does what it takes to secure his house and Westeros.

He does his best, I suppose. Which is why both are on the brink of painful, shameful extinction.

You call him a fool and Tytos not a fool on the level?

Oh yes, I most certainly do. Don't you?

Tytos bankrupted his house and the influence of his lands. Let his concubine rule and his banner men to do whatever they wanted.

While Tywin encouraged Robert to bankrupt the Iron Throne itself and ruined the personalities of his own offspring. Looks like not much of a dispute to me.

(Why would it be a bad thing for a concubine to rule, anyway?)

Tywin is one the most competent characters in the books

By a very specific and not very useful set of criteria, he probably is.

[Fat Mac]

Really the only reason the Lannisters are near implosion is due to Cersei's terrible ruling, which took place after Tywins death. Cersei acts before she thinks (the exact opposite of Tywin), is extremely paranoid which leads her to rash decisions, and is an awful strategist (such as the Jon Snow assassination plot and Margaery's lovers plot). The only way you could blame Tywin for this would be to blame him for not being around more during his children's childhood.

Tyrion was gone, Jaime's not a politician, and Kevan left. That lead to Cersei ruining things. Kevan started to pick up the pieces (mind you, Kevan is just a more kind version of Tywin), then got killed.

[Monk Meth-]

tywin + fool should never be in the same sentence...

[James Arryn]

Really the only reason the Lannisters are near implosion is due to Cersei's terrible ruling, which took place after Tywins death. .

Ummm...not so sure. Before that you already have:

Joff murdered, Tyrion accused, Jaime mutilated, the Lannister forces shown to be very beatable in the field and obviously Tyrion murdered by his own son.

I think things were already coming apart. If Kevan or possibly new Jaime had been in Cersei's stead, a lot of the damage might be mitigated, but the seams were already coming a bit undone, and no one with Tywin's skill to spot/repair them was available.

Remember, too, that you could argue the Lannisters were already on their way to taking second place to the Tyrells in terms of significance before Cersei made matters worse.

[Jem]

He probably could have gotten her a husband from one of the Great Houses.

It is my belief that marriages between the Great Houses was, if not banned, then very severely limited during the Targaryen reign. But yes, Genna could have made a much, much better match.

[Hear Us Roar]

@luisdanatas

"And except than the gold, all of that turned out a disaster. A very shameful disaster"

He became the richest man in the kingdom? what disaster?

"The honor of House Lannister is a joke now, and unlikely to ever recover, thanks to too many manipulations and shady actions from Tywin himself and Cersei."

All houses are engaging in shady action just so you know.

Cercsi acts before she thinks and she is bringing down the house not Tywin. Everything he does has a purpose and is well thought out, Cersci is the impulsive one. That is why he sends Tyrion to be the hand, he can't be in two places at once and someone needed to set things right. Tyrion does and wins the battle of Blackwater. Smart move by Tywin. And honor? Ned and his son supposedly had that and House stark is on the verge of extinction. Honor is worthless.

His armies have been devastated by the war he waged out of ambition and greed. His lands are likewise scorched by the war, and the whole of Westeros faces the spectre of a famine that could have been avoided.

His lands as of the last novel are pretty well off and his son commanded many thousands. Famine, yes but he did not start the war, Cat did.

"To boot, on a personal level, he rose two sons and a daughter that have each been ruined by his example."

"So no, I don't see how he can be said to have done better than his father."

They all made their own choices. He gave them the best. He made Jaime the best fighter, Tyrion a great thinker, and Cersci a Queen. His example was to put family first and to think before you act. The twins go against that example, tyrion is the only one who heeds it,.

"I wonder. I have recently concluded that much of their incest was a way to cope with the impossible pressures of being Tywin's offspring."

what? They have said they have been in to each other since kids. Tywin let them have a pretty carefree childhood and just expected them to be proper lords and ladies like all the nobility.

That was their choice.

Feared, not respected.

Hardly anyone respects Tywin, although there are many who fear him.

Anyone with half a brain can respect his accomplishments. Baelish and Varys consider him to be a large obstacle to their schemes, with him gone things are much easier for them. And even if no one respects him it is not relevant. Love/fear/respect as long as people do what you want them to do their motivation does not matter

He does his best, I suppose. Which is why both are on the brink of painful, shameful extinction.

That is because of Cersci, he eliminated the Stark threat single handedly and took control of the riverlands.

Oh yes, I most certainly do. Don't you?

While Tywin encouraged Robert to bankrupt the Iron Throne itself and ruined the personalities of his own offspring. Looks like not much of a dispute to me.

(Why would it be a bad thing for a concubine to rule, anyway?)

- there is no evidence he encouraged robert to bankrupt the kingdom. We see that when ned joins the small council, Robert is the one who bankrupts the kingdom

By a very specific and not very useful set of criteria, he probably is.

You seem to be confusing Cersci's blunders and attributing them to Tywin. Tywin did not start the war, the was Catelyn. Twyin has not made any mistakes himself. Anything he takes part it usually goes his way. He even goes to Kings landing after all the incompetence by his daughter and still manages to kick ass but scheming with the Freys and Boltons and therby destroying the Northern threat. He would probably do well to destroy Stannis if he had lived

[Castel]

Meh half of the things attributed to Tywin were not his fault at all. Cersei and Jaime caused the Lannister name to be stained. And the Westerlands are in a helluva lot better shape than the riverlands. Come winter, the peasants under the Freys and Baelish are more likely to starve. Which just hurts his enemies financially.

Feared, not respected.

Hardly anyone respects Tywin, although there are many who fear him.

You seem to think that the distinction is important or mutually exclusive.Everyone respects Tywin's skill as a commander and yes he is also feared, which is only for the good, as we've seen many times. Plenty of times people want to sue for peace because they are afraid of him and what he will do.

His armies have been devastated by the war he waged out of ambition and greed. His lands are likewise scorched by the war, and the whole of Westeros faces the spectre of a famine that could have been avoided.

There was a pretty good reason to wage the war. Someone kidnapped his son, if he had let them go, he'd be on the same path that Tytos was, not respected and laughed at. And like I said, famine is the riverlands' problem.

His kids are the ones that messed up, Tywin did pretty well for House Lannister. Most of the things that fucked him were not things that he could predict or defend for.

[David Selig]

A big reason why Tywin kids messed up is that he was a terrible father.

[Lothar Imbel]

His lands as of the last novel are pretty well off and his son commanded many thousands. Famine, yes but he did not start the war, Cat did.

That was actually Littlefinger, but whatever...

[bloodymime]

@luisdanatas

All houses are engaging in shady action just so you know.

Cercsi acts before she thinks and she is bringing down the house not Tywin. Everything he does has a purpose and is well thought out, Cersci is the impulsive one. That is why he sends Tyrion to be the hand, he can't be in two places at once and someone needed to set things right. Tyrion does and wins the battle of Blackwater. Smart move by Tywin. And honor? Ned and his son supposedly had that and House stark is on the verge of extinction. Honor is worthless.

Honor only seems worthless when people are shortsighted and only see the immediate advantage of being treacherous without the implications that will exist in the long term. Tywin understood that, you can bet the red wedding would have never taken place at casterly rock and he did try to distance his name from it as much as he could.

We'll see in time but it's telling that while Stark loyalists are rallying to their honorable Lord's memory and doing what they can to make sure the Starks do not in fact die out the Lannister allies are deserting like rats from a ship.