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Tytos Lannister was a Fool


greygnarl

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@Leto, Other than 6 most of those can be said of everyone in westeros, at least to a degree.

ETA: If you think that the starks have ruled for thousands of years thorough honor and virtue like Ned and the Tullies are all about family and honor, you probably believe those knight tales sansa stark used to believe in.

So? almost everyone in westeros are fools then. A persons deeds are not lessened because someone else did something bad as well.

When did I say anything about ancient Starks, or current Starks for that matter?

It sounds more like a ruthless person. So who is it? Because it don't sound remotely like Tywin's life.

Ahh which of the 6 didn't Tywin live up, pray tell.

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He also loaned money that was never payed back- which he never enforced. He also let one of his paramours influence him greatly. If it wasn't for Tywin, the Tarbecks and Reynes might still be running rampant while the Lannister house was slowly brought to ruin.

Also- this is not quite his fault, but he did give the Cleganes land, which gave them power. Then along came Gregor...

Since Gregor was not (I think) yet born when Tytos Clegane ennobled the his Clegane house-master and gave him land, I find it difficult to blame Gregor's depredations on him. Who accepted Gregor into his service and sent him into King's Landing with orders to murder a baby and a toddler? Not Tytos. Who sent Gregor out to harry Tully (if I remember right) lands and helpless smallfolk because a Tully-born woman kidnapped a Lannister? Tytos was long dead in both instances; the Lannister lord who accepted and empowered Gregor Clegane and ordered him to commit heinous acts was Tywin Lannister, not Tytos.

I think Tytos might have been very like his great-grandson Tommen in character; a gentle person who wanted to get along with everyone. He's called foolish mostly by the son (Tywin) who hated him and (I think) by the daughter for whom he arranged a poor marriage; there aren't too many other living characters in ASoIaF who knew Tytos. He might have been of average intelligence but lacked a good financial sense and put his trust in the wrong people.

I wonder what Tytos' marriage was like, to the mother of his trueborn children. Maybe she was contemptuous of him; and, after she died, he was happy to take up with a lower-born woman who was good to him. We don't know what Tytos' concubine did that was so terrible, aside from wearing jewelry that had belonged to the dead Lady Lannister (which was tacky, but hardly merited a Walk of Shame).

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So? almost everyone in westeros are fools then. A persons deeds are not lessened because someone else did something bad as well.

When did I say anything about ancient Starks, or current Starks for that matter?

My point was that in those times, those who come to power(and stay), have a few common qualities, fro example those who fight "honorably" end up with their head on a pike.

Best example, Ned stark, the fool should have shut his mouth and shoved that honor of his, maybe condemning a child/mother but saving the whole realm from war, where tens of thousands died in battles, probably at least hundred thousand if we count death from hunger etc as well. While at the same time, Tywin at the red wedding, did the unhonourable thing, but he avoided a whole lot of un necessary bloodshed, ending the war in one quick stroke.

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My point was that in those times, those who come to power(and stay), have some common qualities, those who fight "honorably" end up with their head on a pike.

Best example, Ned stark, the fool should have shut his mouth and shoved that honor of his, maybe condemning a child/mother but saving the whole realm and tens thousands of deaths in battles, probably over hundred thousand if we count death from hunger etc. While at the same time, Tywin in the red wedding, struck on blow and avoided a whole lot of un necessary bloodshed, ending the war.

Well Ned was incredibly stupid and not fit for power games, that doesn't mean you have to go the whole Tywin line and be a complete sociopath to be a person of power.

Regardless. My point was that Tywin is a horrid person, which is a bigger fool criteria for me than the relative power status of your house is.

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I think Tytos might have been very like his great-grandson Tommen in character; a gentle person who wanted to get along with everyone.

I agree. Tytos wasn't strong lord and I think that Lannisters could end like Tyrells. They would be too dependent on Tarbecks and Reynes like Tyrells are on Tarly, Hightowers and Redwyne.

But I think that Tywin in GoT started fall of Lannisters. Before GoT he restored reputation of Lannisters and as Hand of the King he was good, except a Defiance of Duskendale there wasn't any major rebellion (although expect Blackfyres and war between Targaryens there wasn't any major rebellion after conquest of Westeros).

But since GoT he made mistakes, which can be fatal for his House, and some his actions lowered Lannisters reputation. He send Gregor to attack Riverlands, because he wanted capture Ned and exchange him for Tyrion. But he must have known that Ned is injured and that he send someone else instead of himself, yet he let Gregor attack Beric Dondarrion, which was under King's banner=he attacked the King himself. He couldn't know that Robert would be killed by boar, so he could expect that Lannisters would be in the war against Tullys, Starks, King and probably Tyrells too.

His campaign in Riverlands wasn't succesful until RW. He lost all important battles against Robb and he let KL more or less defenceless against Renly and Tyrells. He was lucky that Greyjoys attacked North, Shadow killed Renly and Vale didn't support Robb, because otherwise he would be defeated.

RW - I agree that he didn't know about Freys and Bolton exact plan. But after RW Freys are utterly despite by other Houses, yet some Lannisters married Freys, so he lowered Lannisters reputation and probably most Houses think that RW was his plan.

I agree that Tywin was terrible father and he didn't secure future for his House, so he maybe didn't ruin his House when he lived but Lannisters would be done after his death.

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@LuisDantas, it maybe so, but from here to Petyr Baelish the road is long. I think you underestimate the importance of honor, If anything the biggest fool/tool was Ned stark, whose uncompromising self righteous nature brought us here.

I'm not understanding what you mean, Mor.

Petyr Baelish actually reminds me a lot of Tywin, and vice-versa. Despite being just barely highborn, Petyr is very similar in goals, personality and values to Tywin. He is considerably poorer, has a more easygoing way of expressing himself, and is a bit more skilled, but otherwise they are pretty similar characters.

It is weird to be accused of underestimating the importance of Honor. It is my opinion that it is precisely the lack of honor than makes Tywin forever inferior to Ned and most Northerners.

Nor do I agree that Ned is "uncompromising", much less self-righteous. We know that he made concessions time and again (the promise to his sister, the secret about Jon's mother, the lies to save his daughters), and was in fact a well-rounded Lord with the disgrace of living in troubled times. I just don't see how he could reasonably be accused of "bringing us there".

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1. I think the fact that he reacted to an aggression against his House and come out on top of both Stark-Tully and the Baratheons can well justify his tactics in war and his politics was based on the reality in which he acted and not on a fairly tale sung by a troubadour.

I thought we were talking about Tywin Lannister? Because it sure doesn't look like you are talking about him now.

2.That's true but its also a Westerosi cultural approach to the matter. If you do not believe me then ask why Robb Stark sends thousands of farmhands to die to secure his crown, which will be a matter of prestige more than anything else of the Northern nobility and make no difference whatsoever for 99% of the Northern population, or explain Hoster Tully's gentle care for Lysa after Littlefinger impregnated her. That's how Westerosi society works.

Even taking for granted that it is so (which I will not), it would still be true that the Lords must take responsibility for their deeds, among other reasons because they will shape the future of their society to some degree.

"That is how it works" is no excuse for failing to contribute in a constructive way to how it ought to eventually become.

3. Do you remember the line "...when you enemies go to their knees you must help them back on their feet." (not an exact quote but I suppose that I could look it up if you really want me to). Tywin is all for securing the peace once its won.

Is he? Because I am very much blanking on any evidence. Is that line his?

4. Tywin was in a really tight spot at the start and even through most of the war. He lost about half, give or take, when Jaime's army was defeated at the Whispering Wood and Battle of the Camps - followed by the Battle of the Oxcross. Add to this that the Brave Companions turned on him and the northern front was not going all that well, as well that he fought against two major Houses at the same time.

Considering that it was him who put himself in that tight spot in the first place - and that he is supposed to be a competent and experienced general in the first place, yet by your own account suffered major losses from the start - I'm not sure what your point is.

In the south things were even worse with Stormlands and the Reach ganging up on him.

As for most experienced army I would say that Robb Stark probably had it since alot of people over there seems to have seen alot of action during the War of the Usurper.

That was over fifteen years prior, and the North apparently had been in peace for a long time other than that.

By constrast, the Vale keeps having to deal with the Mountain Clans; the Riverlands have no natural boundaries; Dorne and the Reach keep hostile at each other; and Tywin made a point of making his House battle-ready.

I may easily be wrong, but it sure looks to me that the North has seem less military action than most of the other six Kingdoms.

Tywin was in a really tight spot for alot of the time but he didn't panic and kept himself in the game despite it all by playing wisely and from the payoff from Tyrion's position in King's Landing.

That is a very slanted interpretation of the history.

It sounds more like a ruthless person. So who is it? Because it don't sound remotely like Tywin's life.

Uh?

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Is he? Because I am very much blanking on any evidence. Is that line his?

It's from an actually pretty good little speech of his from Storm of Swords, "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

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@LuisDantas, You have point there, but still I cant agree with you, since I cant put Tywin with Petyr in the same group, Cersei and Petyr yes, they are both sociopath or rather narcissist(and some more). But while on the surface Tywin fits many of the criteria of sociopath, among them disregard to other people ~rights, as we dont like the means he deems nessary to achieve his goal, we dont like his treatment of his kids and he is playing the bad guy from the start, still IMO he is not(for that matter Roose Bolton is a prime example of sociopath).

As for honor, I think that our difference stems from a diffident definition. In the context of the book honor is loyalty, honor is watching as KL burn and Sansa beaten and doing nothing, because you are "honor" bound to stay true to your oaths. Ned start was something else, he was an exception to the rule and I really dont subscribe to the idea that most Northerners are more honourable, its just a romantic notion that we want to believe because of the way the story was setup, just as we wanted to believe that Robb would win.

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I wonder what Tytos' marriage was like, to the mother of his trueborn children. Maybe she was contemptuous of him; and, after she died, he was happy to take up with a lower-born woman who was good to him. We don't know what Tytos' concubine did that was so terrible, aside from wearing jewelry that had belonged to the dead Lady Lannister (which was tacky, but hardly merited a Walk of Shame).

Didn't Tytos give her too much voice in matters of State as well?

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How does that go against his cause? Looks like he was winning to me.

The winner is always right.

Winner? He was killed by his own son. I think there are few bigger fails than this. He was winning the game of thrones, but at least 99% of the smallfolk can raise children who won't kill them.

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I thought we were talking about Tywin Lannister? Because it sure doesn't look like you are talking about him now.

Looks can deceive.

Even taking for granted that it is so (which I will not), it would still be true that the Lords must take responsibility for their deeds, among other reasons because they will shape the future of their society to some degree.

"That is how it works" is no excuse for failing to contribute in a constructive way to how it ought to eventually become.

Lords must protect their vassals and family members because that's their most important task in a feudal society unless I'm mistaken. When Catelyn took Tyrion captive and did not bring him to the court to stand a public trial, but took him to her sisters castle that was a sure provocation that no lord whatsoever would tolerate. If Jaime had taken Robb captive and brought him to Casterly Rock, you think Eddard would've sit around and taken a sigh before waiting for the Lannisters to return his child? Just like Robb summoned his banners when Eddard was imrisoned so did Tywin summon his banners when Tyrion was imprisoned.

Even if you don't take this as a fact the problem is that from most eyes it must surely look like the Starks, Tullys and very possibly the Arryns are together with capturing Tyrion. Both Stark and Tully men took part in the capture and escorting Tyrion, and Catelyn did take a detour to make sure that Lannister riders would not catch up with them, and then they went to the Eyrie were they were recieved by Catelyns sister. That sure looks rather conspicuous to me. While Tywin harmed alot of people I personally cannot fault him for acting the way he did in Westeros. Had it been in another place at another time I would probably find fault with him but not in the special situation he was in.

I don't think for a second you will agree with me but there you have it.

Is he? Because I am very much blanking on any evidence. Is that line his?

It is. The scene is where he's chiding Joffrey for wanting to kill every lord who rised arms against him in support of Robb Stark.

Considering that it was him who put himself in that tight spot in the first place - and that he is supposed to be a competent and experienced general in the first place, yet by your own account suffered major losses from the start - I'm not sure what your point is.

The losses were not his personal but were suffered by his side, and still Tywin hanged on and together with Tyrion's help turned the tables. That's something that impresses me at least.

That was over fifteen years prior, and the North apparently had been in peace for a long time other than that.

By judging from Balon's hate of Eddard Stark and Jorah Mormont's knighting it seems to me that the Northmen took part in putting down the Greyjoys' rebellion. And while fifteen years is some time alot of the heavy hitters are still with us; Roose was at the Trident, Jason Mallister slew three of Rhaegar's bannermen at the same battle, there seems to have been at least a couple of Manderly knights who served at that point and so on.

By constrast, the Vale keeps having to deal with the Mountain Clans; the Riverlands have no natural boundaries; Dorne and the Reach keep hostile at each other; and Tywin made a point of making his House battle-ready.

I agree with the Vale and Dorne seems to be hell-bent on causing problems but the Riverlands have as far as I know been in peace since the Rebellion.

I may easily be wrong, but it sure looks to me that the North has seem less military action than most of the other six Kingdoms.

I think the Umbers have probably seen some action against Wildling raiders but otherwise I'll agree that they probably have seen as little action as most others.

That is a very slanted interpretation of the history.

Would you mind to elaborate?

Uh?

My points was that it didn't sound like Tywin.

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Winner? He was killed by his own son. I think there are few bigger fails than this. He was winning the game of thrones, but at least 99% of the smallfolk can raise children who won't kill them.

+99% of the Westeos population haven't managed to ackomplish a fifth of what Tywin has managed.

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I'll admit that Tywin doesn't do much to justify his reputation within the books' timeline, except handily defeating the Tully forces before Robb shows up in AGOT. But most of his dialogue in ASOS and other people's recollection of his accomplishments pre-Robert give the impression of a very great man (evil, but great)

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@LuisDantas, You have point there, but still I cant agree with you, since I cant put Tywin with Petyr in the same group, Cersei and Petyr yes, they are both sociopath or rather narcissist(and some more). But while on the surface Tywin fits many of the criteria of sociopath, among them disregard to other people ~rights, as we dont like the means he deems nessary to achieve his goal, we dont like his treatment of his kids and he is playing the bad guy from the start, still IMO he is not(for that matter Roose Bolton is a prime example of sociopath).

Oh, no. Roose Bolton is a psychopath - he is callous, but not much of a sadist.

His som Ramsay is a sociopath, as is Joffrey.

Tywin, however, is a psychopath much like Roose Bolton. He does not so much take pleasure in being callous and ruthless as he is oblivious to the downsides. He simply fails to realize how destructive his path is. He is not falling prey to temptation, he fails to notice it altogether.

As for honor, I think that our difference stems from a diffident definition. In the context of the book honor is loyalty, honor is watching as KL burn and Sansa beaten and doing nothing, because you are "honor" bound to stay true to your oaths.

Indeed, I don't consider that much honor. Loyalty, perhaps. But not honor. An honorable man will question his liege given enough provocation, as Ned did when Robert wanted to kill Daenerys.

Honor isn't necessarily, or even often, passive. For that matter, it has little to do with oaths, and may in fact easily manifest as the realization that oaths must be broken. Oaths are basically proclamations of obedience (I believe the word most often used is "fealty"), not of honor. Gregor Clegane is obedient, but he is not at all honorable. Ned is honorable largely because he challenges Aerys and Robert when the need is too great. Jaime and Sandor have both become more honorable because they have rebelled to some degree.

Ned start was something else, he was an exception to the rule and I really dont subscribe to the idea that most Northerners are more honourable, its just a romantic notion that we want to believe because of the way the story was setup, just as we wanted to believe that Robb would win.

What we have seen of the Northerners shows that they are deeply loyal and honorable, however. Naturally, there are exceptions such as the Boltons and to a lesser degree the Karstarks.

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Sorry, I kind of overreacted.

I respect Tywin very much, he's smart, he knows when to be agressive and when not to be (unlike Cersei who is always agressive). He's better player than Varys or Littlefinger, they can play their games because nobody cares about them. But Tywin can play his game when the Reynes laugh at him and even when everybody knows how dangerous he is.

But still...being killed by his son. I think it's worse than the fate of Ned, who is killed because his honor and his poor political skills.

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