Why is there such fan love for Brynden Blackfish?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Har.

More seriously, I've heard it suggested that the Blackfish was secretly in love with Minisa Whent-- Cat's mom and Hoster's wife. The person suggesting this scenario hypothesized that this was the reasons for the tension between Hoster and the Blackfish, and what caused the blow up between the two that led to Bryndyn's leaving.

Personally, I don't really buy into this-- it doesn't really go along with the other evidence we've seen, and, frankly, seems a bit "days of our lives" for GRRM. (Two brothers-- torn apart by their love for the same woman! Hell... screw days of our lives, this sounds like Maury.)

At any rate, I've always thought there were some subtle but significant implications that the Blackfish was gay. Including

1. Bryndyn refusing to get married-- could very well mean nothing, or simply that he's stubborn and wants to remain single. But...

2. Also, Hoster Tully asks Cat when she comes back, regarding the Blackfish, "Has he gotten married? To some woman?" It appears here as though Hoster is really hung up on the Blackfish ending up with a woman. "Some woman," suggests that Hoster Tully is eager for his brother to end up with some woman, any woman.

3. When Hoster asks about Bryndyn getting married, Cat says no, he has not married, then confidently asserts, "not will he ever." How does she know this? This sounds pretty definitive, and she says it without any hesitation whatsoever.

Of course, this could all simply be incidental, and Bryndyn could be a straight guy who is just stubborn and doesn't want to get married or obey his bossy older brother. None of these hints are definitive proof; however, taken together, along with Bryndyn's unusual choice to disobey the head of his house and stay single, could mean he is gay. :dunno:

Yeah i guess. I mean I need more than that. Its just that if he was having sex with a man in a scene that we saw, I wouldn't point to the fact that he was married as evidence that he's not gay. The fact that he's not married is only evidence that he doesn't want to be married. "some woman" might mean something, but they don't have gay marriage in Westeros. Oberyn Martell never got married either. And his sexual preference seems to be, "yes please, all of the above". Renly gets married. I don't know what Whores Bane Umber did. It just seems there's plenty of reasons to get married if you're gay.

[Queen Cersei I]

well what do you mean portrayed?

I mean that there are numerous characters in these books, all presented in a different fashion. To argue that this is all objective science would be ridiculous. Some characters are presented more positively than others, some we are encouraged more heavily to sympathize with, etc.

When it comes to judging each individual character as "good" or "bad," we have to judge what we see and hear from each character for ourselves, which always leaves some ambiguity as to how each of us will see a particular character--whether we eventually deem them good, bad, annoying, or what have you. However, I'd say the fact that GRRM presents some characters more sympathetically than others is undeniable. With the blackfish, in AFFC, he was portrayed as cool, awesome, a badass, even as he was doing some rather morally questionable things.

If presented differently, the Blackfish could have just as easily come across in AFFC as a villain.

well what do you mean portrayed? This is why I'm always reluctant to break the 4th wall. The the characters are fictional. They are whatever the author says they are.

Not exactly. Quite a bit is left to the individual interpretation of each reader. I'm not really sure what you mean by "whatever the author says they are," because last time I checked, it's impossible for us, the readers, to know what GRRM definitely thinks about any other character, much less what he clearly "says they are." Some characters do horrible things and are presented as horrible people, and yet there is always a bit of difference in the way each individual reader is going to react to and interpret a character.

For instance-- the Blackfish-- badass hero or selfish cretin? Either interpretation would be valid under the circumstances, IMO. His good points (kindness to the Tully children, great military feats, past heroism, loyalty to his family) do not, in my mind, cancel out the selfishess, callousness, and absolutism in AFFC. Of course, many people may see these same actions in AFFC as heroic.

I've always felt they were presented as pretty heroic and "badass," but that the selfishness and pointlessness of his doomed last stand are all too often looked over. It's not that people don't have the right to like or even love this character for his good qualities; its simply that I feel some of his actions should be looked at with more cynicism.

And its for that reason that one is better off with a Lord like Bryden or Tywin, who, though they seem to be callous, are actually better able to protect their people than lords like Edmure who invite attack by their very open compassion.

Bryndyn and Tywin have little to nothing in common, and your comparison of the two indicates a rather shallow understanding of both characters. Tywin is an insanely competent pragmatist who is callous but generally does end up working for the greater good for the greater number, since her realizes that contented people are the easiest way to keep himself respected and his family in power. The number one thing for Tywin Lannister is his family Legacy. He's worked all his life to assure that no one will ever laugh at the Lannisters again as they did at his father, and to restore his once proud family name. For Tywin, it's all about the dynasty.

Bryndyn could not be more different. As his stubborn refusal to get married shows, he is all about doing things his own way. Tywin Lannister insists that "no man is free," and no doubt sees it as his own duty and that of all his relatives (including his children) to do things they don't want to do to serve the family name and legacy. Bryndyn cares far more about his own pride, his own concept of honor.

His doomed last stand in AFFC goes along very well with this. He is not going to compromise or surrender and is going to keep on fighting regardless of what the consequences are for others becaue in his mind, it is right, just, and honorable.

Bryndyn may well be more likable in the eyes of many, but Tywin Lannister he is not. Personally, though I deeply dislike his character on a personal level, yes, I generally think he'd be a pretty damn good overlord compared to many of the other characters we've met. I'd rather have him than Edmure, since Tywin is able to project an air of confidence and command that Edmure simply never can, furthermore, Tywin is far more competent. But I'd rather have Edmure with his softheartedness and inexperience than Bryndyn with his unbreakable, stubborn honor code that generally shows so little regard for those around him ("collateral damage," and all) and so much for his own concept of himself and his own pride.

On top of all of that Bryden is the only reason Robb ever won any battles.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong-- Bryndyn is an excellent soldier with undoubted military prowess and abilities. His actions in AFFC, however, suggest that he would make for a less than satisfactory lord.

[Queen Cersei I]

yeah queen Cersei basically paraphrased it.

I've never read it before. Anyway, Bryndyn's quest is doomed-- it is pointless, fruitless, hopeless. He is being just as much of a moron with his own concept of honor as you frequently castigate Ned Stark for being.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I've never read it before. Anyway, Bryndyn's quest is doomed-- it is pointless, fruitless, hopeless. He is being just as much of a moron with his own concept of honor as you frequently castigate Ned Stark for being.

hmm... well I apologizes. I should have said you address similar points. However, I don't think Bryden and Ned have similar options to chose from. Also there's probably some hindsight bias since Brynden gets away and Ned is short a head.

[Monk Meth-]

Mostly because he is portrayed in a positive manner.

On first glance, Bryndyn is a brave, defiant, proud man, a badass warrior and a loving uncle and father surrogate into the bargain, to whom his nieces and nepthews went with all their problems.

On second glance, he is a selfish, ruthless man; willing to watch his supposedly beloved nephew be brutally hanged for the sake of his own pride and stuborness. Worse, unlike Edmure (who is, with some unfairness, portrayed as less cool and "honorable" than the Blackfish), Bryndyn is willing to sacrifice numerous innocent smallfolk on the alter of his own perception of himself, idea of honor, and inability to humble himself in order to act for the greater good.

Edmure may be portrayed, for the most part, as a bit of an incompetent wuss inferior in honor (Jaime believes) to the Blackfish. I think Bryndyn's actions in AFFC are selfish and shitty, and, for all his faults and lack of majesty, would rather have Edmure as my overlord than Bryndyn.

Bryndyn is portrayed as a BAMF who proudly puts the Kingslayer in his place, and generally gets more fanfare than poor Edmure, though. I guess it's all in the presentation. Personally, I think Bryndyn and the newly "redeemed" kingslayer should get together for coffee. Jaime's little "You'll want your like..." speech appears to go along with Bryndyn's overall ideology well. Together, these two prove that its not whether you act well or wickedly, selfishly or unselfishly-- its all in how badass you appear while doing it.

Mostly because he is portrayed in a positive manner.

On first glance, Bryndyn is a brave, defiant, proud man, a badass warrior and a loving uncle and father surrogate into the bargain, to whom his nieces and nepthews went with all their problems.

On second glance, he is a selfish, ruthless man; willing to watch his supposedly beloved nephew be brutally hanged for the sake of his own pride and stuborness. Worse, unlike Edmure (who is, with some unfairness, portrayed as less cool and "honorable" than the Blackfish), Bryndyn is willing to sacrifice numerous innocent smallfolk on the alter of his own perception of himself, idea of honor, and inability to humble himself in order to act for the greater good.

Edmure may be portrayed, for the most part, as a bit of an incompetent wuss inferior in honor (Jaime believes) to the Blackfish. I think Bryndyn's actions in AFFC are selfish and shitty, and, for all his faults and lack of majesty, would rather have Edmure as my overlord than Bryndyn.

Bryndyn is portrayed as a BAMF who proudly puts the Kingslayer in his place, and generally gets more fanfare than poor Edmure, though. I guess it's all in the presentation. Personally, I think Bryndyn and the newly "redeemed" kingslayer should get together for coffee. Jaime's little "You'll want your like..." speech appears to go along with Bryndyn's overall ideology well. Together, these two prove that its not whether you act well or wickedly, selfishly or unselfishly-- its all in how badass you appear while doing it.

he was protecting King robbs queen...

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There is that thing about surrendering to Freys, too, as someone pointed out up thread. I'm sure that the people and garrison of Riverrun got a much better deal -- or at least, survived the deal -- from Jaime. So it was worth holding out for someone that's at least playing at having honor.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I mean that there are numerous characters in these books, all presented in a different fashion. To argue that this is all objective science would be ridiculous. Some characters are presented more positively than others, some we are encouraged more heavily to sympathize with, etc.

Well perhaps. But I think Martin is more subversive than that. I think Ned is presented quite positively, and I think we're meant to consider him a fool.

When it comes to judging each individual character as "good" or "bad," we have to judge what we see and hear from each character for ourselves, which always leaves some ambiguity as to how each of us will see a particular character--whether we eventually deem them good, bad, annoying, or what have you. However, I'd say the fact that GRRM presents some characters more sympathetically than others is undeniable. With the blackfish, in AFFC, he was portrayed as cool, awesome, a badass, even as he was doing some rather morally questionable things.

If presented differently, the Blackfish could have just as easily come across in AFFC as a villain.

I don't believe in villains.

Not exactly. Quite a bit is left to the individual interpretation of each reader. I'm not really sure what you mean by "whatever the author says they are," because last time I checked, it's impossible for us, the readers, to know what GRRM definitely thinks about any other character, much less what he clearly "says they are." Some characters do horrible things and are presented as horrible people, and yet there is always a bit of difference in the way each individual reader is going to react to and interpret a character.

precisely. we have what's on the page. The writer's words. Its not as though its a biography, and writer is interpreting the motivations for a person's actual action

For instance-- the Blackfish-- badass hero or selfish cretin?

well, you know, I really on separate characters in to "smart" and "stupid" their all selfish as far as I'm concerned

Either interpretation would be valid under the circumstances, IMO. His good points (kindness to the Tully children, great military feats, past heroism, loyalty to his family) do not, in my mind, cancel out the selfishess, callousness, and absolutism in AFFC. Of course, many people may see these same actions in AFFC as heroic.

well I don't believe in heroes any more than villains. The issue at hand is what can The Blackfish expect as an outcome of the siege.

First we know that he is well provisioned in a strong castle. We also, thanks to the Blackfish's tactics the Lannisters and Freys are not.

Tell me of your dispositions, coz.”

“We have the castle well encircled. Ser Ryman and the Freys are north of the Tumblestone. South of Red Fork sits Lord Emmon, with Ser Forley Prester and with what remains of your old host, plus the river lords who came over to us after the Red Wedding. A sullen lot, I don’t mind saying. Good for sulking in their tents, but not much more. Mine own camp is between the rivers, facing the moat and Riverrun’s main gates. We’ve thrown a boom across the Red Fork, downstream of the castle. Manfryd Yew and Raynard Ruttiger have charge of its defense, so no one can escape by boat. I gave them nets as well, to fish. It helps keep us fed.”

“Can we starve the castle out?”

Ser Daven shook his head. “The Blackfish expelled all the useless mouths from Riverrun and picked this country clean.

He has enough stores to keep man and horse alive for two full years.”

“And how well are we provisioned?”

“So long as there are fish in the rivers, we won’t starve, though I don’t know how we’re going to feed the horses. The Freys are hauling food and fodder down from the Twins, but Ser Ryman claims he does not have enough to share, so we must forage for ourselves.

Half the men I send off to look for food do not return. Some are deserting. Others we find ripening under trees, with ropes about their necks.

”

So we know that for each additional day the siege lasts the Lannister force grows weaker. We also know that subsequent to the Red Wedding, the rules of war have grown more blurred.

“We came on some, the day before last,” said Jaime. Addam Marbrand’s scouts had found them, hanging black-faced beneath a crabapple tree.

The corpses had been stripped naked, and each man had a crabapple shoved between his teeth. None bore any wounds; plainly, they had yielded.

Strongboar had grown furious at that, vowing bloody vengeance on the heads of any men who would truss up warriors to die like suckling pigs.

We know that much of the force investing Riverrun is of uncertain loyalty to the Lannisters. And the force as a whole is unsuited to fight a guerilla conflict.

“It might have been outlaws,” Ser Daven said, when Jaime told the tale, “or not. There are still bands of northmen about. And these Lords of the Trident may have bent their knees, but methinks their hearts are still... wolfish.....

....“Your lightning lord’s not the only man who knows how to tie a noose. Don’t get me started on Lord Beric. He’s here, he’s there, he’s everywhere, but when you send men after him, he melts away like dew. The river lords are helping him, never doubt it. A bloody marcher lord, if you can believe it. One day you hear the man is dead, the next they’re saying how he can’t be killed.” Ser Daven put his wine cup down. “My scouts report fires in the high places at night. Signal fires, they think... as if there were a ring of watchers all around us. And there are fires in the villages as well. Some new god...”

So the situation is not quite so hopeless. The besiegers are poorly supplied and have the forgotten fellowship picking them off whenever the venture off to find food. Worse, the have a spy in the Lannister camp. So how will the Lannisters crack solve this Riverland riddle?

“Ser Ryman did. Rode up to the castle gates half-drunk and blustering, making threats. The Blackfish appeared on the ramparts long enough to say that he would not waste fair words on foul men. Then he put an arrow in the rump of Ryman’s palfrey. The horse reared, Frey fell into the mud, and I laughed so hard I almost pissed myself.

If it had been me inside the castle, I would have put that arrow through Ryman’s lying throat.”

“I’ll wear a gorget when I treat with them,” said Jaime, with a half smile. “I mean to offer him generous terms.” If he could end this siege without bloodshed, then it could not be said that he had taken up arms against House Tully.

“You are welcome to try, my lord, but I doubt that words will win the day. We need to storm the castle.”

There had been a time, not so long ago, when Jaime would doubtless have urged the same course. He knew he could not sit here for two years to starve the Blackfish out.

Negotiate you say? But even his own ally admits he'd sooner kill Ryman Frey, than trust his word. The other option is to storm the castle. The Lannisters might lose 10 men for every one the Blackfish loses. And they have a poorly motivated force which is already deserting and disintegrating. So the question is, how likely are the Lannisters and Freys to abide by the terms of a truce, in Brynden's opinion. And how likely are they to have the wherewithal to storm a very strong castle.

I've always felt they were presented as pretty heroic and "badass," but that the selfishness and pointlessness of his doomed last stand are all too often looked over. It's not that people don't have the right to like or even love this character for his good qualities; its simply that I feel some of his actions should be looked at with more cynicism.

I agree. I just don't think you're being cynical enough. Why shouldn't Bryden assume they'll be mascaraed as soon as they open the gate?

Bryndyn and Tywin have little to nothing in common, and your comparison of the two indicates a rather shallow understanding of both characters. Tywin is an insanely competent pragmatist who is callous but generally does end up working for the greater good for the greater number, since her realizes that contented people are the easiest way to keep himself respected and his family in power. The number one thing for Tywin Lannister is his family Legacy. He's worked all his life to assure that no one will ever laugh at the Lannisters again as they did at his father, and to restore his once proud family name. For Tywin, it's all about the dynasty.

Yes. Tywin's monument to his ego is family. And the influence of the Casterly Rock.

Bryndyn could not be more different. As his stubborn refusal to get married shows, he is all about doing things his own way. Tywin Lannister insists that "no man is free," and no doubt sees it as his own duty and that of all his relatives (including his children) to do things they don't want to do to serve the family name and legacy. Bryndyn cares far more about his own pride, his own concept of honor.

They both only care about pride. For Tywin, as the head of the house, he pride extends to all of his family. For Brynden, a second son, his pride only extends to himself. But they're both cunning, ruthless fucks, who any enemy would be quite wary to cross. In that they are the same. They are fearsome and the reputation proceeds them. Warding off conflict that the ever so compassionate Edmure would only invite. Were it Edmure in charge of Riverrun it would have been chockablock full of smallfolk and he would have had no choice but to yield or starve. But its that very desire to protect everyone that Tywin exploits to bring Edmure low, and quick.

Bryden and like Tywin, is cold pragmatism calculation.

“Harrion. His name is Harrion.” Robb laughed bitterly. “A king had best know the names of his enemies, don’t you think?”

The Blackfish looked at him shrewdly. “You know that for a certainty? That this will make young Karstark your enemy?”

“What else would he be? I am about to kill his father, he’s not like to thank me.”

“He might. There are sons who hate their fathers, and in a stroke you will make him Lord of Karhold.”

His doomed last stand in AFFC goes along very well with this. He is not going to compromise or surrender and is going to keep on fighting regardless of what the consequences are for others becaue in his mind, it is right, just, and honorable.

But as I've just pointed out. Its not so clear, the stand is doomed. Should the besiegers sufficiently dwindle, the Blackfish will break out of there like Bradley at Normandy.

She frowned. “I promise you, this mummer’s farce of a siege would not have amused him. How do you mean to end it, now that you’re here?”

“Treat with the Blackfish.”

“That won’t work.”

“I mean to offer him good terms.”

“Terms require trust. The Freys murdered guests beneath their roof, and you, well... I mean no offense, my love, but you did kill a certain king you had sworn to protect.”

“And I’ll kill the Blackfish if he does not yield.” His tone was harsher than he’d intended, but he was in no mood for having Aerys Targaryen thrown in his face.

“How, with your tongue?” Her voice was scornful. “I may be an old fat woman, but I do not have cheese between my ears, Jaime. Neither does the Blackfish. Empty threats won’t daunt him.”

“What would you counsel?”

She gave a ponderous shrug. “Emm wants Edmure’s head off. For once, he may be right. Ser Ryman has made us a laughingstock with that gibbet of his. You need to show Ser Brynden that your threats have teeth.”

Upon until the point when Jamie arrives to treat with Bryden at Riverrun. HE IS WINNING, the siege. Nor would Tywin have bent the knee for the sake of saving Edmure.

"His father had never been unduly swayed by sentiment. Tywin Lannister’s own father Lord Tytos had once imprisoned an unruly bannerman, Lord Tarbeck. The redoubtable Lady Tarbeck responded by capturing three Lannisters, including young Stafford, whose sister was betrothed to cousin Tywin. “Send back my lord and love, or these three shall answer for any harm that comes him,” she had written to Casterly Rock. Young Tywin suggested his father oblige by sending back Lord Tarbeck in three pieces. Lord Tytos was a gentler sort of lion, however, so Lady Tarbeck won a few more years for her muttonheaded lord, and Stafford wed and bred and blundered on till Oxcross."

“Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a... bigger man?”

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. “You are my son.”

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left. Tyrion wanted to slap him, to spit in his face, to draw his dagger and cut the heart out of him and see if it was made of old hard gold, the way the smallfolks said. Yet he sat there, silent and still."

Bryndyn may well be more likable in the eyes of many, but Tywin Lannister he is not. Personally, though I deeply dislike his character on a personal level, yes, I generally think he'd be a pretty damn good overlord compared to many of the other characters we've met. I'd rather have him than Edmure, since Tywin is able to project an air of confidence and command that Edmure simply never can, furthermore, Tywin is far more competent. But I'd rather have Edmure with his softheartedness and inexperience than Bryndyn with his unbreakable, stubborn honor code

It has nothing to do with honor code. He proceeds because he looks over is ramparts and see a chinless Frey waving a parchment, another making hollow threats, a Lannister who "For a man who looked so leonine, Daven Lannister sounded oddly sheepish." and force that dwindels by the day. In short Brynden sees an enemy he can't trust but can defeat. And that he why he persists.

that generally shows so little regard for those around him ("collateral damage," and all) and so much for his own concept of himself and his own pride.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong-- Bryndyn is an excellent soldier with undoubted military prowess and abilities. His actions in AFFC, however, suggest that he would make for a less than satisfactory lord.

[Lord Ben]

You don't build a castle to surrender as soon as you're outnumbered and surrounded. That's exactly the purpose of a well defended castle.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

I think Brynden is an awesome character, that doesnt mean he's perfect. He's an idiot if he thinks he can withstand the Lannister siege or attack to Riverrun, and even a bigger fool if he thinks that the honorable thing is to fight and let everyone die just to prove that Robb is his king. The only way that I could possibly agree with his actions is if the Westerling girl was with child, not saying that's the case but it's a possibility.

[Silmarien]

Mostly because he is portrayed in a positive manner.

On first glance, Bryndyn is a brave, defiant, proud man, a badass warrior and a loving uncle and father surrogate into the bargain, to whom his nieces and nepthews went with all their problems.

On second glance, he is a selfish, ruthless man; willing to watch his supposedly beloved nephew be brutally hanged for the sake of his own pride and stuborness. Worse, unlike Edmure (who is, with some unfairness, portrayed as less cool and "honorable" than the Blackfish), Bryndyn is willing to sacrifice numerous innocent smallfolk on the alter of his own perception of himself, idea of honor, and inability to humble himself in order to act for the greater good.

Edmure may be portrayed, for the most part, as a bit of an incompetent wuss inferior in honor (Jaime believes) to the Blackfish. I think Bryndyn's actions in AFFC are selfish and shitty, and, for all his faults and lack of majesty, would rather have Edmure as my overlord than Bryndyn.

Bryndyn is portrayed as a BAMF who proudly puts the Kingslayer in his place, and generally gets more fanfare than poor Edmure, though. I guess it's all in the presentation. Personally, I think Bryndyn and the newly "redeemed" kingslayer should get together for coffee. Jaime's little "You'll want your like..." speech appears to go along with Bryndyn's overall ideology well. Together, these two prove that its not whether you act well or wickedly, selfishly or unselfishly-- its all in how badass you appear while doing it.

I don't think his actions were selfish. He swore to Robb he would keep his Queen safe and he takes every measure in order to achieve that goal. There are theories that Jeyne is pregnant, with a swap and the disparity between Catelyn seeing her as beautiful with good childbearing hips and Jaime seeing her as kinda pretty, with narrow hips.

Protecting Robb's Queen is a noble thing. You can't protect all the smallfolk if you want to withstand a year long siege. I dunno, I just think it's very honorable of him to follow his dead nephew/King's last wish. Just IMHO.

ETA: And no, I don't think protecting Jeyne and properly preparing to withstand a year long siege is "selfish". Edmure was already a dead man - or not (as demonstrated by their daily idiot posturing by threatening to hang him....then not). I'd never parley with the Freys either if they'd just killed the entire Northern army, bannermen, my niece, my great-nephew, and desecrated their bodies - after violating guest right.

[Ghost714]

I think Brynden is an awesome character, that doesnt mean he's perfect. He's an idiot if he thinks he can withstand the Lannister siege or attack to Riverrun, and even a bigger fool if he thinks that the honorable thing is to fight and let everyone die just to prove that Robb is his king. The only way that I could possibly agree with his actions is if the Westerling girl was with child, not saying that's the case but it's a possibility.

If you truly believe this, then you should read the very well put together post above yours, by Lord Littlefinger's Lash.

Everything you said is wrong, the Blackfish did withstand the seige, for how long before Jaime got there? And mean while everyday the Blackfish hold out, the Lannister/Frey army gets weaker. The Brotherhood without Banners was killing of anybody who left to get food, and on top of that people where just plain deserting. The Blackfish is not a fool, he knows the Brotherhood is out there, along with many other people who wanted the Freys dead. The Blackfish left them with no food, but he had enough food for his men, and horses for two years. Now why would the Blackfish care about having food for horses, when your locked in a castle, horses are useless for manning the walls, unless the Blackfish planned to storm out of Riverrun, and break free, just when the time is right.

The reason why nobody attacked Riverrun during that whole seige, is because the ends did not justify the means. Nobody could afford to lose that many men, storming Riverrun.

Also how did the Blackfish know that he and his people would not be slaughtered if the surrendered? You honestly think he should have trusted the Freys after the fucking Red Wedding? That is the only thing that would have made the Blackfish an "idiot".

The Blackfish knows all of this, he is not on some suicide mission to show how big his cock is or anything, and he isn't doing it for "his own selfish honor". He was actually winning, in his situation, everyday his chances got better, and his enemies got worse.

I have only pointed out a few things, like I said it would be good of you to read the pat obove yours, by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, because there post goes over everything very well, and I will be shocked if you still have this same opinion after reading their post.

And I know I am assuming you didn't read their post before making yours, but that's because I don't see how it's possible to have this opinion, after reading their post.

[Lummel]

There is that thing about surrendering to Freys, too, as someone pointed out up thread. I'm sure that the people and garrison of Riverrun got a much better deal -- or at least, survived the deal -- from Jaime. So it was worth holding out for someone that's at least playing at having honor.

But then it is Edmure Tully who gets those better terms not the Blackfish who is the one who refuses to negiotiate.

[kg1982]

yeah queen Cersei basically paraphrased it.

I'm just not quite so sure its hopeless, the army outside couldn't feed itself. The lighting lord is still striking here and there as far everyone knows. And the Lannister army was melting away much as Robbs was while he sat at Riverrun. I don't think its unreasonable for Bryden to hold out looking for an opportunity to break out, rather than surrendering to the FREYs who just demonstrated a disregard for a truce banner. Lastly there's a theory Jeyne Westerling escaped with the Blackfish smuggling away a wolf pup and Elenya is the Westerling that Jamie saw.

Yeah.. If that was the case (and I'm getting annoyed by the As the World Turns version of Stark inheritance... and Jeyne being pregnant with Robb's kid is exhibit 1 of that), then wouldn't it have been more prudent to have taken her out of Riverrun and to Greywater right after the Red Wedding became known rather than escaping with a pregnant teen through a gate into the river at the dead of night with armies all around her.

[Frey Pie]

I dont see how anyone could not like him. Ok so he didnt let all the smallfolk in when the siege began. Then again there was no Gregor Clegane or Tywin Lannister to rape and plunder and they had the BwB to protect them. He did what he had to

I do think he was winning the siege. The only way Jaime could have won the battle other then the way he did was by assaulting the castle which would have been a bloodbath. The enemy army was on its way to fighting itself. The Freys only ever seem capable of working with Robb-the Boltons hate them,the lannisters hate them and so do the riverlanders.

Bryndens an all round good and honourable man. He has the hero status and together with Robb they made the greatest military decisions and victories the books have. For people who think he should have surrendered-what would you do if you were being forced to give your family home for 300 years to your greatest enemy.

Brynden has been kept alive for some reason. Otherwise he would have gone with Robb to the RW. My belief is that hel be the one to kill uncat when he sees what she has become

[a free shadow]

I dont see how anyone could not like him. Ok so he didnt let all the smallfolk in when the siege began. Then again there was no Gregor Clegane or Tywin Lannister to rape and plunder and they had the BwB to protect them. He did what he had to

I agree. If he would have let everyone in, they all would have starved very soon. And then they all would be at the mercy of Freys. Now he saved as many as he could and has the leverage of holding the castle hostage :D And Freys did not have to massacre people left outside the walls. If they did, then, again, why should everyone have been left for their mercy?

[Hamilton]

The parlay with Jaime was one of the greatest scenes. To me it represented what I thought about Jaime's arc in AFFC. Jaime is trying to be honorable, yet he does not understand that his past actions still follow him. He expects Brynden to be courteous to his new honor, but he'll always be Kingslayer. Brynden made this scene what it is so I like (with holding moral judgements).

[Sand Snake No. 9]

But then it is Edmure Tully who gets those better terms not the Blackfish who is the one who refuses to negiotiate.

Well, Edmure got NO terms before Jaime showed up, in fact he was farcically marched up to a gibbet every day by that buffoon Ryman Frey, so it was certainly good for Edmure that the Blackfish held out until Jaime arrived. At least now Edmure be murdered in relative comfort at Casterly Rock rather than in chains at the Twins.

(Actually, I'm hoping that Edmure never makes it to the Twins because the BWB and/or the Blackfish attack the convoy, but we'll see).

[Lummel]

I dont see how anyone could not like him. ..

I do think he was winning the siege...

I don't particularly care for him, he's a bit of furniture in an interesting story and that's it.

And can you imagine that as long as the direwolf flag flew from Riverrun that it would have been left alone as the only part of mainland westeros not acknowledging King Tommen? Sure it would have been difficult and costly to reduce Riverun but it would have to have been done politically. There's no way it could have been left alone.

[Darth Rivers]

When I read the books it seemed pretty obvious that Blackfish liked his brother's wife, not men.

[Lummel]

Well, Edmure got NO terms before Jaime showed up, in fact he was farcically marched up to a gibbet every day by that buffoon Ryman Frey, so it was certainly good for Edmure that the Blackfish held out until Jaime arrived. At least now Edmure be murdered in relative comfort at Casterly Rock rather than in chains at the Twins.

(Actually, I'm hoping that Edmure never makes it to the Twins because the BWB and/or the Blackfish attack the convoy, but we'll see).

Oh well if you want to be precise about it!

Yes I suppose it is Jaime who is the active ingredient in the situation. If he had not have turned up then the pantomine would have continued until everyone had starved to death.