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Lord Davos Seaworth

The future of Jaime and Brienne?

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1a) Face of the Hound could very well be Brienne, supposing she picked up the Hound's helmet. Would make greater sense if the 2nd person is Jaime

1b) Face of the Hound could very well be Sandor, but what would motivate him from leaving the Quiet Isle?

If the Hound really does come to face Robert Strong, I would wonder what his motivations or incentives are to return to KL, and with Jaime. Or maybe Jaime and Brienne convince him to fight Gregor somehow. This would also give him a chance to rest the demons, which have plagued him, aside.

Lem Lemoncloak wears the Hound's helm. Considering Brienne's previous actions (painting over the arms of House Lothston), I don't understand why she would show that "face."

I've always hoped to see the Hound fight the Mountain. If it happened though, I would think Sandor would be fighting for the Faith, perhaps reborn as a Warrior's Son.

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I doubt all three of your suggestions are true to be honest.

For me, it seems fairly certain that Brienne has agreed to lure Jaime into a trap for the BWB to save Pod and Hayne, and that Catelyn is intent on killing the man who crippled Bran and fought against Robb and the Tullys. And didn't show a hint of remorse about it.

Also, Tyrion being the valonqar who strangles Cersei seems way too straightforward for GRRM. It's almost certainly Jaime who kills her (perhaps to stop her from destroying King's Landing with a wildfire plot of her own, as her behaviour is increasingly resembling Aerys).

So I reckon Jaime is saved by an armed group intent on destroying the BWB. There's no shortage of people who would take up arms against the BWB: not just the Freys, Lannisters and Boltons but also the Faceless Men, whose sacred laws about death are violated by undead people such as Lady Stoneheart, and the Faith Militant, who are quite strong in numbers and would see a need to destroy a group of murderers who worship a foreign god.

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Although, It's pretty simple I've always assumed that brienne leads Jaime into the trap to save podrick and Hyle, then Brienne sacrifices herself giving Jaime an opportunity to kill Un-cat

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I'm just not so convinced. In Davos' case, we didn't have a scene with someone specifically commenting that he's been missing for a while. From Cersei, we find out that Jaime disappeared with Brienne and hasn't been heard from in weeks. The fact that GRRM took the time to mention that seems significant to me, but I fully admit that I could be wrong. I can be more than a little paranoid where my favorite characters are concerned. :ohwell:

I'll concede that you do have a good point about Brienne not being able to trust Stoneheart and the BWB, but as you also said, it doesn't mean that she'll be able to come up with a creative solution to work things out. Maybe if she and Jaime put their heads together on the issue? I don't know. There are so many ifs that could come up. I mean, what would happen if Brienne and Jaime just booked it right for Stoneheart and chopped off her head? How would the BWB react? Is it possible they went to look for Sansa together? How will Stoneheart react to being jilted like that?

Yeah, I've heard the theory proposed before, but I've never really been able to buy into it myself. It's interesting to think about since that vision from Bran seems to line up with the idea, but it doesn't make much sense because why would Brienne follow through on UnCat's desires? Unless she just took Jaime away to have her way with him. :thumbsup:

You realize you've just started a new crackpot theory that soon will be flooding all the forums, right? What's dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger! OBVIOUSLY, that spells lich! :eek:

I'd probably laugh for quite a while afterwards too. :lmao:

Yes, but all of that was resolved for us, the readers, within the book. We know where Stannis and Arya are. And on top of that, most people just think Arya's dead anyway. The situation is different because Jaime has been gone so long that other characters (Mostly just Cersei, but still) have actually taken note of it, yet we readers don't know what happened. The fact that the Jaime chapter that prompted all this discussion happens with still another roughly four hundred pages to go (Don't have the book with me, so I can't be exact), and yet we never saw a resolution, is what worries me. I know stuff was cut from Dance, so maybe it was supposed to be resolved initially, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that was one of the cut chapters, so the point stands that it isn't just that a character has gone missing; a perspective has gone missing.

Of course, it's entirely possible that it was just set up to be another cliff hanger. I'm willing to admit that. It just seems weird to me. I don't recall there having been a situation like this before, wherein other characters had already taken note that a POV character was missing, yet we readers didn't find out by the end of the book. Maybe I'm just overreacting since, as I said, Jaime is bar none my favorite character, and I'm just a tad bit paranoid and pessimistic. And in ten years (gods, I hope it doesn't take that long), I'll be happily reading Jaime chapters again and all will be well.

sigh

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It's pretty simple I've always assumed that brienne leads Jaime into the trap to save podrick and Hyle, then Brienne sacrifices herself giving Jaime an opportunity to kill Un-cat

Then why disappearing for weeks? If Jaime were dead, Cersei would know, and not only in her "guts" as her twin but the news would spread across the Seven Kingdoms, raven-post or not.

If Brienne were dead to save Podrick or Jaime or both, then we'd know: what reason would have Jaime to remain hidden? Looking for Sansa on his own? Since he has no clue where she is, he'd have to ask questions. Sooner or later a man with a golden hand travelling with a squire (instead of a 6.5 feet wench) would be noticed.

If both are conspiring to get the BWB on the other hand, preparation plans are required and perhaps some caution. I have this feeling that they are preparing to attack.

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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Their future?

Jaime - Death, but it will be epic. My theory is suicide after killing Cersei

Brienne - returning to Tarth (hopefully never having any PoV chapters ever again). She will be the only one left who knows how great a hero Jaime really was, but I doubt people will believe her.

Having Jaime die without the world knowing the truth seems like something GRRM would do :P.

Edited by Ser Tahu

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Then why disappearing for weeks? If Jaime were dead, Cersei would know, and not only in her "guts" as her twin but the news would spread across the Seven Kingdoms, raven-post or not.

If Brienne were dead to save Podrick or Jaime or both, then we'd know: what reason would have Jaime to remain hidden? Looking for Sansa on his own? Since he has no clue where she is, he'd have to ask questions. Sooner or later a man with a golden hand travelling with a squire (instead of a 6.5 feet wench) would be noticed.

If both are conspiring to get the BWB on the other hand, preparation plans are required and perhaps some caution. I have this feeling that they are preparing to attack.

It's just my opinion, I feel personally though that this will have more to do with Brienne's story arc and character than Jaime's

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Jaime and Brienne both took an oath to find Sansa and Arya. There are now two rumours of Arya's whereabouts. Last seen at the Saltpans with Sandor Clegane and on her way to the Wall (Jayne Poole). They will have to prove that they have been keeping their vows to Catelyn, to find the girls and Jaime not raising arms against Tully or Stark. (which he has kept) trial by combat. Brienne will have already proven her innocence. Now Jaime will have to prove his by trial by combat. I suspect Brienne will be Jaime's champion and Stoneheart will continue to hold them to their vows.

I can't imagine what Brienne and Jaime think about being confronted by someone who is a walking corpse. That would be a shock to both of them. I don't think Jaime believes in snarks and grumkins. He's about to meet one.

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When Cat took Brianne into her service she also swore a vow, that she would not stand in the way of Brianne wanting to kill Stannis. That when the time came she would release her. Well the time has come. Stannis is at the wall and outside of Winterfell and it's because stannis is outside that Bolton is forced to open the gates and fight. Which allows the northernmen the chance to turn their cloaks and rid the north of Bolton, and our friends of Frey. The north remembers and they pay their debts. If Davos can reclaim Rickon then manderly can give his support of atleast a quarter of the north along with a fleet. Then there is the other northmen, Glover's will be grateful because it was Stannis that got rid of the ironmen. So there is another alliance. The wall is in Stannis' debt as well. If they aren't careful they will became stannis' bannermen in all but name. They will owe him and the north can not turn him away that would make them no better that Freys, Bolton and Lannisters. So Brianne is the key to all their problems. She wants him dead and stannis has Robbs blood on his hands. He uses sorcery and trying to burn the old gods. That is not going to sit well. Also Brianne can tell them about Renly and the manner of his death. The north needs stannis dead to pay for Robb and Brianne wants vengence for Renly. If the two work together they can be rid of the man by scratching each others back

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I didn't get the chance to read nearly this whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned this or discussed, but has anyone else wondered if there's any significance in the fact that Oathkeeper (on of the two swords forged from Ice) is now involved in a storyline that is so close to Lady Stoneheart? Based on the fact that Ice was passed down for so long from Stark to Stark makes me think that there is some importance to come from what's happening with it. Plus Ice is part of the name of the series, which obviously is a reference to many things but I'd say there's a good chance that the sword's name isn't a coincidence. Now the sword and the two people to have owned it (Jaime for a short time, and Brienne) are seemingly set up to have some sort of confrontation with LS in TWOW, and keeping in mind that it's unlikely that GRRM brought Catelyn's character back for a pretty big reason, it's at least possible that the sword might be a critical part in the storyline to come.

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Very confused. My wife claims that Jaime was led into a trap by Brienne and killed by UnCat/Caetlyn/Lady Stoneheart. I can find NO reference to this in ADwD. Is there some possibility that my Kindle book is missing pages?



My read is that the last we saw of those 2, Brienne was feeding Jaime BS about The Hound (dead) and Sansa (in the Vale) being a day's ride away (in a helicopter maybe), and that he had to come with her or the Hound would kill Sansa.



Did I miss something?


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I think Brienne screaming 'sword' is probably the most significant clue as to her and Jaimes future. Perhaps the 'sword' offered by UnCat represents UnCats fate for Jaime. I think Uncat will order a trial by battle for Jaime nominating Brienne as her champion and that Jaime will definitely kill her. Perhaps not necesseraily out of skill but out of Briennes own personal sacrifice. Then obviously UnCat would be obligated by her own command to release Jaime, Pod and Ser Hunt but I think Jaime (being on his redemption arc and all) will maye join Uncat?.... In some way.


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Although, It's pretty simple I've always assumed that brienne leads Jaime into the trap to save podrick and Hyle, then Brienne sacrifices herself giving Jaime an opportunity to kill Un-cat

this. and Jaime will continue in his redemption path in her honor.

but i'll keep wishing that Brienne survives somehow until WoW comes out.

and if they finally realize that they love each other, i would not be mad ;)

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Okay, this is my favourite theory. I absolutely love it and really hope it happens.

1. A JAIME CHAPTER - Brienne and Jaime are riding together and Brienne is very quiet with him which confuses Jaime. Brienne then has to knock Jaime out because of his growing suspicions. Brienne takes Jaime to Catelyn and Jaime tells her the same thing Brienne did about how they truly want to reunite her with Sansa and that Brienne was looking for her but NOT to take her back to King's Landing. Catelyn ignores Jaime's arguments, just as she did Brienne's so Jaime thinks to himself, What Would Tyrion Do? He then says "I did not know your daughter Sansa, but I do know that she was just a child and would have been easily recovered after Joffery's death unless there was someone who helped her escape. Who would have wanted to take Sansa Stark away from King's Landing?" He then asks Catelyn if she could think of anyone who might have wanted to take Sansa Stark away. This makes Catelyn pause and think for a bit and then she turns to Jaime and asks, "Where is Petyr Baelish?"

2. A SANSA CHAPTER - Littlefinger is ready to reveal Sansa as her true self and marry her to Harry. They receive a visit from the Kingslayer and so Baelish lets him enter with a few of his men and a wagon full of armour, weaponry and supplies. Jaime informs Littlefinger of how things have been proceeding in the Riverlands and then notices Sansa. Littlefinger introduces her as her bastard daughter Alayne. Jaime then inquires about the missing Sansa Stark and her whereabouts, to which Littlefinger states he knows nothing about. There is then sounds of steel and screams outside the room and the doors come open with Catelyn barging in. Sansa sees her mother for the first time since leaving Winterfell and watches as Petyr Baelish and Jaime Lannister are arrested.

3. A JAIME CHAPTER - Jaime wakes up in a sky cell, just like the one Tyrion was in so long ago and as he is banging on the door for someone to come and meet him he hears Petyr Baelish cursing at him. Littlefinger states that Jaime was stupid for siding with Catelyn in the state that she is in. Jaime claims that he had no choice and that reuniting her with Sansa was the only thing that was keeping him alive. Baelish claims that they will both be on trial and will likely both get sent out the Moon Door.

4. A SANSA CHAPTER - Thoros explains to Sansa what happened to her mother and that Catelyn is still uncomfortable with Sansa seeing her the way she is. The fact that Sansa is alive and safe is enough for her at the moment. She is told that there will be a trial for Jaime and for Littlefinger. Sansa considers what would happen if Baelish is killed and what that will mean for her future with Harry and with Winterfell, She contemplates that perhaps killing Baelish would not be such a good idea.

5. A JAIME CHAPTER - Jaime is put on trial first and it does not go very well. Jaime is honest in everything he says but is continually called Kingslayer and other new names that he picked up over the years. Baelish didn't have much luck either in his trial and they are both sent back to their respective sky cells to await Catelyn's decision on the morn. Jaime considers a trial by combat and wonders if Brienne would volunteer herself as his champion. Baelish believes that she may do it for Jaime, but that he knows that no one would want to fight for him. Jaime jokes and says that maybe they will just put them against each other but quickly realizes that Catelyn would rather them both be dead than just one.

6. A BRIENNE CHAPTER - Catelyn passes sentence on Jaime first and names him guilty and charges him with death by Moon Door. Jaime asks for a trial by combat. Catelyn allows this but before Jaime is able to ask for Brienne to be his champion, Catelyn names Brienne as her champion first. Brienne is shocked at first but then realizes that this is yet another test for Brienne to prove her loyalty to Catelyn. Her and Jaime share a look of discomfort knowing that one of them will die. Brienne knows that she can best Jaime now that he only has the one hand, but how will she be able to kill him after all that they had been through? Baelish is charged with the same sentence and surprisingly also asks for a trial by combat. Catelyn selects Brienne once again and Brienne is wondering if Catelyn actually wants her killed in this process as well. Baelish then asks for a volunteer and no one responds to him. He then states that he will name Jaime Lannister as his champion since he is already in a trial by combat with Brienne. Jaime obviously cannot refuse this so now Brienne and Jaime are fighting for just their lives, but also for the life of Littlefinger.

7. A JAIME CHAPTER - Jaime enters the room and sees Brienne getting ready. He knows that she could kill him, but doesn't know if she will be able to. He wonders what he will do if she cannot stomach killing him. Will he be able to do what she could not and kill her? As they start the combat, they both exert blows not to kill but only to make it seem like they are engaged in the fight. This does not last long however as Anguy states that failure to kill your opponent results in death, one way or another. Still, there are many times that Brienne could have sliced Jaime open, and she opts not to. Finally after Jaime lunges forward to try and cut at Brienne's thigh, Jaime is at a position of vulnerability that Brienne could not pretend to ignore. Brienne runs her sword across Jaime's back with cause him to drop to his knees. Brienne looks down at Jaime who says to her "Kill me." Brienne does not move. Jaime looks to Catelyn and sees her anger. He realizes that if Brienne doesn't kill him now, he will still die, but so will she due to her lack of obedience. Jaime takes one final leap at Brienne to force her to show her blade. She blocks his blow and as she does, Jaime drops his sword, grabs both of Brienne's shoulders and says, "Do it." Brienne says "I can't," so Jaime moves back and takes Brienne's hands and thrusts Oathkeeper into himself and Brienne watches in horror. Jaime steps closer to the Moon Door with Brienne still holding onto Oathkeeper, which is still stuck in him. Jaime has let go of the sword but Brienne knows that if she lets go too, Jaime will fall. Jaime takes one last look at her and says, "Let me go." Brienne lets go of the sword and Jaime falls through the Moon Door with Oathkeeper still inside him.

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Posting this before I've read every comment to see if people are thinking like I am:



1. It has to be a trap. If you string Brienne's last chapter and Jamie's last chapter together, it's clear she's leading him into a trap. She believes the Hound is dead so the information she gives Jamie is an outright lie.


2. Brienne is more loyal to Cat than Jamie. She may have fallen for him just like she did for Renly, but her service is to Lady Cat.


3. Jamie is not going to die....he still has to go all out murder/suicide with Cersei.


4. I've been pondering it, and I just remembered that Jamie is one of the few people at this point who knows for sure know "Arya" is a fake, and maybe coughing up this information will be what saves him.


5. Jamie, Brienne and the BwB all head north to the wall to see what's up with this fake Arya.


7. UnCat saves Jon and makes UnJon, forever the LC of the NW.


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Jaime will survive, with Brienne dying in a sacrifice so he can go to Cersei's trial and defend her and deliberately lose, thus ending his life and hers in one movement without actually condemning his children

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