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Lord Davos Seaworth

The future of Jaime and Brienne?

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On 1/29/2013 at 6:28 PM, Blue Rose Direwolf said:

I haven't read through all the pages of this thread so apologies for that.

 

I think that Brienne's alive and that she told Cat she'd kill Jaime. But I also think that she won't be able to do it and that something will drive her to kill Cat. Her story will echo Jaime's because she's going to realise that the person she swore herself too, Catelyn Stark, has become a monster, just like Jaime realised Mad King Aerys was a monster. And she'll kill Cat to save others, just as Jaime killed Aerys to save everyone in King's Landing.

 

Jaime and Brienne are similar in so many ways, both thought to be kingslayers, both knights of the king's guard, both loyal to each other. It makes sense that it'll play out that way because then Brienne will finally understand what Jaime went through to break his oath the way he did, even though she reviled him for so long for being an oathbreaker.

I cannot figure out what kind of chaos would make it possible for Brienne to kill UnCat.  However, "Oathkeeper" was made from "Ice" and I always had the feeling that it would be a fitting ending if UnCat was killed with it.  The other possibility, but probably not in this scenario, so no yet would be Arya giving her "mercy..."  Still, although a little off topic here, I would love it if LF encounter Cat in her current state to give him nightmares lol

Going back to the sword, the name has to mean something and I am inclined to believe it does not only refer to the quest to find Cat's daughters.  I have posted earlier on the vow of fealty, especially the bit where Cat swears not to ask anything of Brienne that would bring her dishonor and, whatever Jaime's crimes, he did save Brienne's life so that would bring her dishonour.  UnCat has not kept her oath and I think that would be a great opportunity plot-wise to have her killed with "Oathkeeper."  

Furthermore, say that Jaime and Brienne survive and accomplish finding Sansa, say.  Would they be in their right minds if they took her back to LSH???  The experience would be truly devastating for Sansa, even Arya...  I don't doubt they would find a safe place for one or both girls but I think bringing them to their mother would be extremely cruel psychologically.  As it stands they both have positive memories of their mother and their childhoods this would just totally ruin those memories.

Both Brienne and Jaime have a lot of unfinished business still; with each other or separately.  For me, Jaime has to meet up with Tyrion again, and certainly Cersei... whether valanquar or not.  Brienne has to fulfill her oath to both Cat and Jaime.  I am sure at least one of them will die in the story at some point but I don't think they can do so yet.  Also I get a strong feeling, given the released Alayne chapter from TWOW that either one or both will turn up for the tourney in the Vale.  I wouldn't be terribly surprised either if they encounter Sandor at some point soon... but just my two cents

 

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On 6/5/2014 at 8:08 AM, Giorgio Corrado said:

I think that Jaime most likely will die either after killing Cerse as the valanqor or Jaime will die at the Wall fighting the others. But not before Jaime and Brienne have an affair leaving her pregnant by the end of the series.

 

You know, could be wishful thinking but I am kind of convinced of this too.  That would be incredibly bitter-sweet and he has to redeem himself not just in character but in the eyes of others, I think...  I don't know whether that posthumous child of theirs is just my wishful thinking or if it will happen but ADOS has to have some hope in it, and re-building and you need children for that.  Also I am inclined to believe that a number of characters will end up in roles they never expected for themselves, and Brienne never saw herself as a mother I don't think.  Definitely back this one, although again it could be just want to see happening...

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It would be GRRM's style if Jaime takes control of the situation in Kings Landing (even though he hates politics) and Brienne becoming an oath breaker and kill LSH to save Jaime (even though she has focused on doing her duty).

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On 4/15/2012 at 3:12 PM, blackseer said:

I thought about why Stoneheart owuld keep Jaime alive and came to a theory, even if very unlikely:

 

Stoneheart wants the death of all the participants of the RW, plus revenge against the Lannisters. If she kills Jaime, she will kill one of the plotters (that's what she thinks anyway, thanks to Roose Bolton). If she keep him alive, she could use him as a hostage to send Brienne on some errands and could gain some information about the different hosts along the Riverlands, since Jaime was the commander and knows how strong they are and what are the commanders' personalities. With that information, tha BwB could rescue the prisioners from the RW, take Darry, Riverrun, Harrenhall and maybe even rescue Edmure.

 

So, if she is not just a vengeful spirit, but also has some cunning in her, she could use a live Kingslayer, instead of just feeding a few crows.

This most likely wont happen because its pretty well known that stonehearts driven by revenge and will probably kill Jamie on sight plus Cat before she died wasn't much of a strategist either with her trusting Peytr in the first place and all so yeah if she has Jamie shes killing him.

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On ‎22‎.‎03‎.‎2017 at 5:39 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

Furthermore, say that Jaime and Brienne survive and accomplish finding Sansa, say.  Would they be in their right minds if they took her back to LSH???  The experience would be truly devastating for Sansa, even Arya...  I don't doubt they would find a safe place for one or both girls but I think bringing them to their mother would be extremely cruel psychologically.  As it stands they both have positive memories of their mother and their childhoods this would just totally ruin those memories.

Stoneheart may still be holding Ser Hyle and/or Podrick Payne hostage. I think Brienne would gladly trade Arya and Sansa for those two. Jaime and Brienne might reason that Stoneheart will, at least, not kill her daughters. But neither has any idea where to find either girl.

I don't know where, or how, but I think Stoneheart is going to meet her children - all of her surviving children - before she passes on. But that time has not yet come. I think the current arc's resolution will depend on Jaime's secret sword training, and on Ser Ilyn Payne.

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11 hours ago, Tini said:

Stoneheart may still be holding Ser Hyle and/or Podrick Payne hostage. I think Brienne would gladly trade Arya and Sansa for those two. Jaime and Brienne might reason that Stoneheart will, at least, not kill her daughters. But neither has any idea where to find either girl.

I don't know where, or how, but I think Stoneheart is going to meet her children - all of her surviving children - before she passes on. But that time has not yet come. I think the current arc's resolution will depend on Jaime's secret sword training, and on Ser Ilyn Payne.

Several problems here; Brienne doesn't have either daughter of Cat's (as yet) and also she sworn an Oath that is very important to her.  I would argue she would sacrifice Pod rather that go back on her oath, but I don't think it will come to that.

Somehow, deux ex machina or whatever both of them have to survive (for now - for narrative purposes).  Then, yes. Ser Jaime's training may come into place (nor sure but highly possible).

Personally, I feel that either Cat gets "re-killed" with "re-Ice" or Arya gives her "mercy."  Maybe even via Nymeria and that is what saves Jaime, Brienne and the others...

Not sure how this cliffhanger is going but either Ice or Arya I would strongly bet on one or the other!

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 22.3.2017 at 6:31 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

You know, could be wishful thinking but I am kind of convinced of this too.  That would be incredibly bitter-sweet and he has to redeem himself not just in character but in the eyes of others, I think...  I don't know whether that posthumous child of theirs is just my wishful thinking or if it will happen but ADOS has to have some hope in it, and re-building and you need children for that.  Also I am inclined to believe that a number of characters will end up in roles they never expected for themselves, and Brienne never saw herself as a mother I don't think.  Definitely back this one, although again it could be just want to see happening...

I do hope that Brienne will have an important role to play in the end.

Because otherwise including all these endless Brienne chapters that (so far) led nowhere except to failures and disfigurement would be a little hard to stomach.

However I doubt Brienne's role will be that of mother:

First - to me at least - that would undercut her character who defies the traditional female role. She is a protagonist who really lives the code of chivalry that all the male characters always talk about but never adhere to. Ontop of that she is a better fighter than most of them.

Personally I don't really want that to lead to the traditional 'but when all is said and done she ends up in the mother role like usual.'

Second a romantic relationship between Brienne and Jaime seems a little hard to believe.

I know it sounds kind of potically incorrect to say so but when all is said and done people tend to be attracted to people of similar outward attractiveness. The oft-cited inner value is much talked about but not adhered to when it comes to selecting a partner. Sadly Brienne was far out of Jaime's league (look-wise that is) even before GRRM had to disfigure her. Don't blame me. I would really wish it was otherwise but from the start GRRM somehow found it necessary to stress how unattractive she is. (Very different in the TV show where she is attractive. One change I am entirely in favour of).

Ontop of that Jaime seems to be very romantically attacted to his sister despite all of Cersei's faults. (Who by the way is excactly in the same league as he look-wise, monstrous as she is otherwise, underscoring my argument above).

Despite that Brienne's and Jaime's fates have already been closely intertwined. It may well be that each will play an even more important role in the other's arc than they have already. However I doubt that will be a romantic part. Somehow Brienne's heroism will have to pay off in the end. She has to finally manage to get something right. I very much hope so.

 

 

 

Edited by Amris
forgot a word

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On Invalid Date at 4:26 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

Several problems here; Brienne doesn't have either daughter of Cat's (as yet) and also she sworn an Oath that is very important to her.  I would argue she would sacrifice Pod rather that go back on her oath, but I don't think it will come to that.

Somehow, deux ex machina or whatever both of them have to survive (for now - for narrative purposes).  Then, yes. Ser Jaime's training may come into place (nor sure but highly possible).

Personally, I feel that either Cat gets "re-killed" with "re-Ice" or Arya gives her "mercy."  Maybe even via Nymeria and that is what saves Jaime, Brienne and the others...

Not sure how this cliffhanger is going but either Ice or Arya I would strongly bet on one or the other!

 

Brienne swore several oaths - including bringing Arya and Sansa to Catelyn. She may have to choose which one matters to her most. Most likely she will not even get to choose. We know what oathbreaker Jaime chose. It'll be interestng to see her choose - and how she'll be able to live with herself afterwards. If she lives. Jaime and Brienne might have some interesting conversations if both survive the cliffhanger.

I don't think Arya will be involved in resolving the cliffhanger: I don't think the timing quite works.

As for Stoneheart's final death, I think it will mirror Dondarrion's to some extent - like him, she'll realize what she lost, and give up her existence. I think that will require meeting some of her surviving children, and seeing their horror at what she has done/become. Arya may very well be the one to find her. After all, there would be no reason for Arya not to accept a contract on Stoneheart - she doesn't know who Stoneheart is. If they recognize each other, the shock might even be mutual - Catelyn Stark would be horrified that her daughter joined the Faceless Men. Maybe that will make Arya reevaluate her choices.

But then, there isn't much left of Catelyn Stark. I wonder if Stoneheart would try to use Arya's abilities / hire her own FM daughter.

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When winter truly comes to the Riverlands and all of hangwoman's many victims come back to life, the Brotherhood without Banners would be more thankful for a notorious warrior maiden with a "magic sword" than last time we saw them. I'm sure Brienne is already where she will be needed story-wise. All she would have to do is to get rid of Stoneheart (she wouldn't be the only one wanting that) or to die for her cause only to be kissed back to life. Jaime though, I can't see him taking part in one of these epic battles, but clearing the Iron Throne once the danger is real. I could see him kidnapping Tommen, to desert the old seat of unseparated power and to prepare a post-war alternative somewhere else via great council or by deconstructing any existing claim to rule alone somehow.Doing that he might unintentionally become Cersei's valonquar, since he never knew what her children meant to her as he doesn't know of the prophecy. Cersei would look for them in dangerous places and/or Cersei would kill herself to avoid the valonquar getting her.

Jaime's and Brienne's future together? Their (short) reunion in TWOW should be telling for both of them, even if there might be a Iot of reluctance on Brienne's side, especially if she's already death for Jaime and after having seen how an exposure as Kingslayer's Whore affected lifes. GRRM however won't steal away from actually writing this unconventional romance to its bitter(sweet) end instead of letting them or one of them die heroically. That simply wouldn't tell anything about the compablility of an ugly woman and a weak man. Both POVs show us how it can be possible, maybe as the only true romance in the whole series.

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On 15/04/2012 at 8:18 PM, Arkash said:

If Jaime was to die now, I'd be so sad, but it would be the real irony and bitterness of it... he's redeeming himself, becoming a greater man, and him to die in the shade, without having a single chance to prove himself, dying with still the unfamous image of the Kingslayer would be the total irony, realism and cynism and in a way, I'd love that.

 

And since I really dont see UnCat dying anytime soon, I guess there are fair chances for Jaime to die.

 

Moreover, GRRM said he still had other scenes to write as difficult as the Red Wedding, maybe this is one of them: final deaths of Jaime, Brienne, Podrick and Hyle Hunt... who knows but him?

Jaime is not redeeming himself. He shows no regret for pushing Bran, for his willingness to kill/maim Arya. And he never thinks about how the twincest put his children in danger, or how it was one of the factors for the war and all the death and destruction that came with it. 

He was once an idealistic boy, very proud, it seems, by not telling Ned what really happened, but still he cared about others. But now he is a villain with some good, perhaps even heroic moments, but that is it. Jaime was very brave by saving Brienne, but she is someone who he really likes/admires/loves, and reminds him of himself. And she flatters his ego after hearing the story of Aery's death. 

Which is all he does now. He pats himself in the back, fancying himself as a  really virtuous man. Goldhand the just or something. He sends Brienne in a nearly impossible quest, so he feels acquitted for the little guilt he might feel and if that fails it is not on him. It would be Brienne's failure as knight.

So far, Jaime has been in a self discovery path, detaching himself from his sister and making his own choices, but he is not facing/acknowledging the damage he caused. He is all about me and mine, he doesn't care about the innocent who are 'others'.

I think that meeting LS will be the moment when his illusions about himself are shattered. Which is one of the reasons why I believe he won't just hang. It would be very disappointing to not see how he deals with it. Maybe he does get a redemption arc after that. 

But as to how that would happen, I have no idea. Lady Stoneheart is still unkown for most of the people in Westeros, she has to cause a lot more impact in the story, so she won't die anytime soon. And she won't just set him free. 

 

 

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On 4/22/2012 at 6:14 PM, Lyanna Stark said:

 

Indeed. That is why I feel it needs to almost be a Deus Ex Machina to get both Jaime and Brienne out of this situation, like something or someone appearing for it to stop (Bran or the Blackfish have been ideas circulating, I believe).

 

It would make sense if it was somehow Bran and Bloodraven intervening. There is also this oddity I caught somewhere:

 

 

 

Hidden Content

 

Interesting catch!  Now, the more I look at LSH the more she resembles the Morrigan in the Celtic myth. She is a goddess of death and battle, by and large and she fits LSH totally.  Ravens are her animal, just like direwolves are symbols of House Stak...  Still, Bran's intervention is possible.  Although plausible enough that he did not remember who pushed him with his new powers... I reckons he knows but does not feel the need for revenge because something more important is at hand and Jaime has to play a part... Could be wrong, as always...

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On 4/22/2012 at 6:36 PM, iamthedave said:

I believe you've both forgotten the true moving piece of this puzzle. Lady or ladies and gentleman or men I present to you the one, the only...

 

THOROS OF MYR!!!!!!! *applause*

 

If there's ever been a sub-character with an arc it's this guy. Starts out as comedy, gets religion and a purpose, gains magic, now we've last seen him realizing that without Beric Dondarion the BWB are exactly what the Hound said they were: no better than him, bandits and outcasts who think they're better than everyone else for no reason at all.

 

I absolutely believe Thoros will play a crucial part in this resolution. He's uncomfortable with the fact Lady Stoneheart is Unalive, he's uncomfortable with what the BWB have become, he's uncomfortable with what was done to Brienne, and I sincerely doubt that he's comfortable with the treatment of Podrick Payne.

 

Now is the time for him to snap and do something about it.

 

Side note: What's a warning point? That wasn't there last time I was on.

I couldn't agree more.  Whether it is because LSH got inpatient with Brienne/Jamie or whatever and hanged poor Pod and ser Hyke or even without that, Thoros is going to turn against her very soon indeed.  Okay, he was a drunken priest from a foreign land who got fatter and fatter and loved to have the hospitality of the rich.  When he thought himself a fraud, he truly found his religion. He has a moral compass. LSH has one to a point, although it is almost lost (and unlike Jaime, or Arya or Tyrion, I think it is harder for an "undead" to get it back).  A lot of her followers like Lem and co appear to have very little moral compass but they are not the leader.  In theory LSH is the leader but I think, de facto, and practically, Thoros is...  I think he will help Brie and Jaime.at least escape, maybe more...

Narrative-wise this would not be as "deux ex machina" as some of the other scenarios that have cross my mind just because we should have seen it coming.

I reckon they follow LSH in respect for Dondarion.  Dondarion was way fairer, anyone can see that.  I think a lot of the BWB will eventually see that they are following her because they loved Dondarion and his cause, and hey, he gave his life to resurrect her.  After a few more blind killings they may start to reconsider if Dondarion didn't just chase a rainbow on that one.

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On 4/22/2012 at 9:20 PM, Lyanna Stark said:

Well, Brienne says they have a day's ride, so any romance needs to be very quick ;)

There is no aphrodisiac like extreme fear of death.  Brienne lied badly, I reckon on purpose so that he could see through and find a way out.  Still, more likely than not they will both die in the morrow (in their perceptions).  I think they are trying to save Pod and ser Hyke because they have to be bright enough to realise that LSH is not sticking to any morality code here... Her only morality is revenge, blind revenge.  She doesn't even bother to ascertain how involved, say, a given Frey, was in the Red Wedding, or how low in status in the decision making process.  She kills first, questions never!  Now, in this context, the fear of death is strong and so is the desire.  I would love it if they had it off before they faced LSH, and even more if they found a drunken septon in the middle of the night or something and made it legal just afterwards lol that would make any possible kid Lord/Lady of Casterley and, if he is killed, would give her a reason to live.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 9/22/2013 at 6:49 AM, mystikherb said:

I didn't get the chance to read nearly this whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned this or discussed, but has anyone else wondered if there's any significance in the fact that Oathkeeper (on of the two swords forged from Ice) is now involved in a storyline that is so close to Lady Stoneheart? Based on the fact that Ice was passed down for so long from Stark to Stark makes me think that there is some importance to come from what's happening with it. Plus Ice is part of the name of the series, which obviously is a reference to many things but I'd say there's a good chance that the sword's name isn't a coincidence. Now the sword and the two people to have owned it (Jaime for a short time, and Brienne) are seemingly set up to have some sort of confrontation with LS in TWOW, and keeping in mind that it's unlikely that GRRM brought Catelyn's character back for a pretty big reason, it's at least possible that the sword might be a critical part in the storyline to come.

I'm totally with you, although the details of how that is going to pan out fail me... I posted a topic a few years back on this very thing, I think if you type ice or oathbreaker and either jaime or Brie or SH you should get it, if not I will see if I can link it but going into my profile

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I just hope Brienne and Jaime last to the very end of this book at least, i have lots of hope for them... Thoros seems very disapointed with the way things are going down there in the hollow hill, he might help... This is the only "romance" that matter in this book for me... So i will pray to the Others that they survive but suffer in this first chapters.

Brienne maybe be Jaime's Nissa-Nissa or the other way around... I mean besides them who have a nissa-nissa by now, Jon maybe if he kills Arya, but that would be weird as hell...

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