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Lord Davos Seaworth

The future of Jaime and Brienne?

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I'm of the mind that whatever is "going" to happen to Jaime has already happened. We know from Cersei's chapters in Dance that Jaime has been missing for weeks. I think that's probably more than enough time for whatever happened to have happened. I suppose it isn't impossible that GRRM could still write the scene since the timeline in regards to the order the chapters take place in can be a little iffy, but I doubt it. He took the time to mention that no one has heard from Jaime in quite some time, so I don't think we're actually going to see that scene.

Now, what actually happened is definitely up for debate. Jaime is my by-far favorite character; no other can even begin to rival him. Naturally, I've assumed he died and I will never hear from him again because if I let myself hope he's still alive, then it will just hurt more if it turns out he's already dead. Still, I did come up with a few scenarios of what might have happened, some of which actually involve Jaime surviving.

I think it is entirely possible that Brienne has already killed Jaime on UnCat's command, so the word she screamed as she was hanging was "sword," indicating that she would kill Jaime. A lot of people have told me that they can't imagine Brienne ever hurting Jaime, and I'd like to believe them, but with Pod's life on the line, I think Brienne might do it, no matter how much she doesn't want to. I know a lot of people also believe that Jaime can't die yet because he's the Valonqar, but I've never been completely convinced that it's Jaime. It might be, but the wording in the prophecy ("the little brother," not, "your little brother." could be any little brother) convinces me that it might not be Jaime.

Continuing this train of thought:

Looking back at Bran's Vision from the first book (referenced here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1791/), two figures are described that sound like Jaime and the Hound. They are described as "shadows," which are often referred to as followers of the Lord of Light. That makes me wonder if they might end up dying and being revived via kiss of flames, and antics will ensue. I think it's possible that it won't be the Hound that gets shadowfied, but Brienne, possibly wearing the Hound's helmet. I don't put a lot of stock in this theory since it would seem that in order for one person to be revived with the fire kiss, the kisser loses the extra life. And I was only able to come up with one reason why UnCat would bring back Jaime, even if it didn't cost her her UnLife, and that would be to kill him again. But who knows? Maybe the kiss can be used on more than one person and Beric just died one too many times.

I also don't believe that Brienne was UnLifed when she went to pick up Jaime. I think the fact that she looked older was just because she had been through so much and it had really worn her down. Getting your face literally bitten at can do that to ya, I would imagine.

Anyway, the main reason I even remotely consider the above scenario with the UnJaime and UnHound is because I do find it difficult to believe that Jaime's arc is completely over. His redemption arc doesn't feel finished yet. We've been watching him train to relearn fighting for so long, I find it difficult to believe that nothing will have come from that. When Ned died, when Robb died, I was pissed, but it didn't feel like they had such huge gaps left unresolved.

For this reason, I've allowed myself to consider the possibility that Jaime is still alive, even if I don't let myself hope for it.

I know it's been mentioned before, but I've considered the scenario in which Jaime demands a trial combat from UnCat, it's granted, and Brienne fights as UnCat's champion and kills herself to save Jaime. I have a few problems with this, though. I doubt UnCat would grant Jaime a trial at all, and if she did, I don't think Brienne would be her first choice for a champion. And as I stated earlier in this post, I think that whatever happened has already happened, and I think that GRRM would have shown us this scene if it worked out like this.

Actually, that is my problem with all of the "Jaime is alive" theories. Why didn't we see it? Jaime's first chapter in Dance happened pretty early, all things considered. There was more than enough room for another chapter that could have tied up what happened. This, to me, lends credibility to the idea that Jaime and/or Brienne is dead, because we obviously can't get chapters from them if they aren't alive.

ANYWAY :idea:

I actually had a more immediate thought of a way that Jaime might have survived that I liked more. When Brienne comes to get him, she she tells him that Sansa is in danger, held captive by the Hound, a man most commonly known to serve the Lannisters. The fact that Jaime willingly went alone with her because he wanted to save Sansa is proof that Jaime has changed and that he actually wants to try to set things right. I've wondered whether or not Brienne would have told the BWB what she was going to do to actually get Jaime to come with her. Considering it's Jaime freakin' Lannister, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and brother to the Queen, you'd think lots of people would be around him and it'd be difficult to get him alone to kill him. I wouldn't be surprised if the BWB wanted to hear what Brienne was planning to do before just letting her go. Maybe Brienne somehow convinced the BWB that she could prove Jaime's change for the better by getting him to come with her alone if she told him Sansa was in danger. I don't know if that would make any difference to UnCat, considering Jaime still threw her son out a window, but it might.

Wow. Sorry for the length of the post. I can just never be brief. :commie:

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Jaime, Brienne and Cat were all major POV characters, I doubt GRRM will pull a Benjen Stark with them on us. Maybe he won't show the scene but he'll give some kind of closure; either seeing Jaime, Pod Brienne again, or UnCat will be spotted with some new heads on spikes!

I do think if they can convince UnCat that they really are / were trying to get her daughters to safety and that Jaime didn't have a hand (HAR!) in the R W, they might escape fairly unscathed.

Jaime's redemption arc isn't over yet, but it could end with him saving Brienne and Pod sacrificing himself somehow.

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Jaime, Brienne and Cat were all major POV characters, I doubt GRRM will pull a Benjen Stark with them on us. Maybe he won't show the scene but he'll give some kind of closure; either seeing Jaime, Pod Brienne again, or UnCat will be spotted with some new heads on spikes!

I do think if they can convince UnCat that they really are / were trying to get her daughters to safety and that Jaime didn't have a hand (HAR!) in the R W, they might escape fairly unscathed.

Jaime's redemption arc isn't over yet, but it could end with him saving Brienne and Pod sacrificing himself somehow.

Oh, I definitely agree that there will have to be closure of some kind, even if we don't see the scene. Actually, after the way that Jaime chapter ended, I spent the rest of the book expecting to reach a Cersei chapter in which a box would be delivered to her with Jaime's head in it, signed with love from Stoneheart and the BWB. I don't think I have it in me to be optimistic about the scenario. :dunno:

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I think major character deaths (or dramas) happen on camera (Robb, Ned, Jon, Joffrey, Lysa, Robert, Viserys, The Old Bear, Renly, Drogo, Oberyn, Quentyn, Tywin, Kevan) rather than off stage so whatever is going to happen to Jaime we will see in TWOW.

Lady Stoneheart is a nightmare imo. When Beric led the BWB he made knights and attempted to protect and feed the smallfolk while hanging those who were preying on them, a typical Robin Hoodesque outlaw lord in other words. Under UnCat the BWB are much darker - see Lem and Jack-be-Lucky's dialogue when they are hanging Brienne and Pod - and this stems from her.

She hangs Brienne for breaking her vow of service which is a monstrous injustice since we know how hard Brienne has tried to serve her and protect her daughters; she isn't even prepared to hear a proper explanation from Brienne and completely ignores Brienne's protection of the children and killing Rorge at the Crossroads Inn (something which had tremendous personal cost for Brienne).

If Brienne didn't get a hearing, a fair trial or any option for trial by combat what chance for Jaime? Stoneheart is also nicknamed "The Hangwoman" and this particular hangwoman knows that Jaime threw her son out of a tower window. Whether he has associated guilt for the red wedding in her mind or not doesn't matter as she is full of hatred and a thirst for vengeance: she will hang him.

Unless we have an intervention from someone Stoneheart will listen to (Bran but how? The Blackfish but why? he doesn't believe in the redeemed Jaime) Jaime's only hope is Brienne. GRRM has put her in an impossible situation: in order to save Pod / Hyle Hunt who are innocent she must deliver up Jaime.

ASOIAF is all about momentous and emotional choices for our characters and since she "screamed a word" at the end of AFFC we have been heading towards this one.

Edited by the trees have eyes

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I'm of the mind that whatever is "going" to happen to Jaime has already happened. We know from Cersei's chapters in Dance that Jaime has been missing for weeks. I think that's probably more than enough time for whatever happened to have happened. I suppose it isn't impossible that GRRM could still write the scene since the timeline in regards to the order the chapters take place in can be a little iffy, but I doubt it. He took the time to mention that no one has heard from Jaime in quite some time, so I don't think we're actually going to see that scene.

You forget that Dance starts before Feast and ends after. Technically most of Dance had already happened by the end of Feast. Things move back and forth a lot so don't worry, the chances are that AWOW will start in the mid-point of Dance and end way afterward. Or at least some chapters will be throwbacks. For example, the Davos Seaworth plotline - whatever happens in AWOW - will have already ended by the closing of Dance or at least be well underway (otherwise Manderly would not have set out from White Harbour).

I think it is entirely possible that Brienne has already killed Jaime on UnCat's command, so the word she screamed as she was hanging was "sword," indicating that she would kill Jaime. A lot of people have told me that they can't imagine Brienne ever hurting Jaime, and I'd like to believe them, but with Pod's life on the line, I think Brienne might do it, no matter how much she doesn't want to. I know a lot of people also believe that Jaime can't die yet because he's the Valonqar, but I've never been completely convinced that it's Jaime. It might be, but the wording in the prophecy ("the little brother," not, "your little brother." could be any little brother) convinces me that it might not be Jaime.

I have a much better way of thinking on this matter (well, better in my mind at least): Brienne might well kill Jaime for Pod if she trusted the person who captured him. All she knows from Lady Stoneheart now is that she is willing to hang a completely innocent boy in order to force Brienne into action.

Brienne has no reason at all to believe Pod will be released. Remember, she already tried to bargain her own life for Pod's and that wasn't good enough. She is an honourable knight, and she is - much as I love her - a little bit thick, but she knows when someone can't be trusted. Brienne is going to want to find a way to get Pod away from the BWB, and she won't for one second believe they'll live up to their end of the bargain. it's far more likely that once they have what they want they'll hang the lot of them all over again. Brienne knows all this and has no reason not to believe this will be the resolution.

Whether or not she found a way out is a different matter. She's not a creative thinker, alas.

Continuing this train of thought:

I think it's possible that it won't be the Hound that gets shadowfied, but Brienne, possibly wearing the Hound's helmet. I don't put a lot of stock in this theory since it would seem that in order for one person to be revived with the fire kiss, the kisser loses the extra life. And I was only able to come up with one reason why UnCat would bring back Jaime, even if it didn't cost her her UnLife, and that would be to kill him again. But who knows? Maybe the kiss can be used on more than one person and Beric just died one too many times.

If Brienne was hung and resurrected (though why she would assist Cat at all under those circumstances is beyond my comprehension) there's always the chance she'll kill Jaime and then give him the Kiss of Life. Would be a tragic way to end their romance plotline. Might even get the 'Jaime is Rh'llor' theorists jonesing a bit.

I also don't believe that Brienne was UnLifed when she went to pick up Jaime. I think the fact that she looked older was just because she had been through so much and it had really worn her down. Getting your face literally bitten at can do that to ya, I would imagine.

If she's unlifed, Theon is Westeros' first lich.

Anyway, the main reason I even remotely consider the above scenario with the UnJaime and UnHound is because I do find it difficult to believe that Jaime's arc is completely over. His redemption arc doesn't feel finished yet. We've been watching him train to relearn fighting for so long, I find it difficult to believe that nothing will have come from that. When Ned died, when Robb died, I was pissed, but it didn't feel like they had such huge gaps left unresolved.

It's just as likely that Martin is establishing that Jaime can't fight in order to set up a duel with Brienne, who is also in a bad way and in no condition to fight, as an inversion of his usual EPIC DUELZ LOL writing involving bad assery on all sides. Instead Jaime can scream 'SHORYUKEN' and dragon punch UnCat's head off with his golden hand. Okay, that's a bid fanficcy but admit it, you'd laugh if it happened before wondering at what point GRRM lost his marbles.

I know it's been mentioned before, but I've considered the scenario in which Jaime demands a trial combat from UnCat, it's granted, and Brienne fights as UnCat's champion and kills herself to save Jaime. I have a few problems with this, though. I doubt UnCat would grant Jaime a trial at all, and if she did, I don't think Brienne would be her first choice for a champion. And as I stated earlier in this post, I think that whatever happened has already happened, and I think that GRRM would have shown us this scene if it worked out like this.

Honestly this seems the most likely resolution, given his penchant for high drama. It's also the reason why it hasn't happened off-page. Martin does not miss out his drama chances. Good writers don't as a rule of thumb.

Actually, that is my problem with all of the "Jaime is alive" theories. Why didn't we see it? Jaime's first chapter in Dance happened pretty early, all things considered. There was more than enough room for another chapter that could have tied up what happened. This, to me, lends credibility to the idea that Jaime and/or Brienne is dead, because we obviously can't get chapters from them if they aren't alive.

You forget that this chapter was included specifically as a 'they're still alive' because of the gigantic time gap between Feast and Dance. Originally Jaime wasn't meant to appear at all. GRRM realized that people were sick of waiting and wanted a hint of what was to come. Dance was meant to focus on the North and events across the Narrow Sea, while the Southron court was meant to be left alone, but the ten year gap meant that wouldn't quite work. So he included a couple of 'catch up' chapters for those who wanted to know.

If we never get Jaime/Brienne confirmed as POV characters for AWOW, then we know they're dead, and not until.

As for him being missing for weeks, people forget that in Dance, the folks in White Harbour didn't even know that Stannis and ten thousand men were at the Wall. People are hanging vastly too much on the fact that one person has gone missing in the middle of a war, forgetting that he did this once already (on his way to Kings Landing with Brienne) and that in most cases one of their other favourite characters - Arya Stark - has spent three books in this precise state of existence.

It means NOTHING.

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First of all: its annoying as Hell that this has to be left as a cliffhanger for five years. George R. R. Martin could have found a way to get at least one more Jaime chapter in Dance with Dragons.

Anyway, its guarenteed that Jaime isn't dead yet. Just like Jon Snow. They're too important of characters. They have too much left to do. And Lady Stoneheart really does have worse foes to battle than Jaime and Brienne. Jaime is actually on my list of characters who are most likely to survive to the end. He and Brienne will probably team up for Stoneheart, but I really doubt that Jaime will ever again be an effective fighter.

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You forget that Dance starts before Feast and ends after. Technically most of Dance had already happened by the end of Feast. Things move back and forth a lot so don't worry, the chances are that AWOW will start in the mid-point of Dance and end way afterward. Or at least some chapters will be throwbacks. For example, the Davos Seaworth plotline - whatever happens in AWOW - will have already ended by the closing of Dance or at least be well underway (otherwise Manderly would not have set out from White Harbour).

I'm just not so convinced. In Davos' case, we didn't have a scene with someone specifically commenting that he's been missing for a while. From Cersei, we find out that Jaime disappeared with Brienne and hasn't been heard from in weeks. The fact that GRRM took the time to mention that seems significant to me, but I fully admit that I could be wrong. I can be more than a little paranoid where my favorite characters are concerned. :ohwell:

I have a much better way of thinking on this matter (well, better in my mind at least): Brienne might well kill Jaime for Pod if she trusted the person who captured him. All she knows from Lady Stoneheart now is that she is willing to hang a completely innocent boy in order to force Brienne into action.

Brienne has no reason at all to believe Pod will be released. Remember, she already tried to bargain her own life for Pod's and that wasn't good enough. She is an honourable knight, and she is - much as I love her - a little bit thick, but she knows when someone can't be trusted. Brienne is going to want to find a way to get Pod away from the BWB, and she won't for one second believe they'll live up to their end of the bargain. it's far more likely that once they have what they want they'll hang the lot of them all over again. Brienne knows all this and has no reason not to believe this will be the resolution.

Whether or not she found a way out is a different matter. She's not a creative thinker, alas.

I'll concede that you do have a good point about Brienne not being able to trust Stoneheart and the BWB, but as you also said, it doesn't mean that she'll be able to come up with a creative solution to work things out. Maybe if she and Jaime put their heads together on the issue? I don't know. There are so many ifs that could come up. I mean, what would happen if Brienne and Jaime just booked it right for Stoneheart and chopped off her head? How would the BWB react? Is it possible they went to look for Sansa together? How will Stoneheart react to being jilted like that?

If Brienne was hung and resurrected (though why she would assist Cat at all under those circumstances is beyond my comprehension) there's always the chance she'll kill Jaime and then give him the Kiss of Life. Would be a tragic way to end their romance plotline. Might even get the 'Jaime is Rh'llor' theorists jonesing a bit.

Yeah, I've heard the theory proposed before, but I've never really been able to buy into it myself. It's interesting to think about since that vision from Bran seems to line up with the idea, but it doesn't make much sense because why would Brienne follow through on UnCat's desires? Unless she just took Jaime away to have her way with him. :thumbsup:

If she's unlifed, Theon is Westeros' first lich.

You realize you've just started a new crackpot theory that soon will be flooding all the forums, right? What's dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger! OBVIOUSLY, that spells lich! :eek:

It's just as likely that Martin is establishing that Jaime can't fight in order to set up a duel with Brienne, who is also in a bad way and in no condition to fight, as an inversion of his usual EPIC DUELZ LOL writing involving bad assery on all sides. Instead Jaime can scream 'SHORYUKEN' and dragon punch UnCat's head off with his golden hand. Okay, that's a bid fanficcy but admit it, you'd laugh if it happened before wondering at what point GRRM lost his marbles.

I'd probably laugh for quite a while afterwards too. :lmao:

Honestly this seems the most likely resolution, given his penchant for high drama. It's also the reason why it hasn't happened off-page. Martin does not miss out his drama chances. Good writers don't as a rule of thumb.

You forget that this chapter was included specifically as a 'they're still alive' because of the gigantic time gap between Feast and Dance. Originally Jaime wasn't meant to appear at all. GRRM realized that people were sick of waiting and wanted a hint of what was to come. Dance was meant to focus on the North and events across the Narrow Sea, while the Southron court was meant to be left alone, but the ten year gap meant that wouldn't quite work. So he included a couple of 'catch up' chapters for those who wanted to know.

If we never get Jaime/Brienne confirmed as POV characters for AWOW, then we know they're dead, and not until.

As for him being missing for weeks, people forget that in Dance, the folks in White Harbour didn't even know that Stannis and ten thousand men were at the Wall. People are hanging vastly too much on the fact that one person has gone missing in the middle of a war, forgetting that he did this once already (on his way to Kings Landing with Brienne) and that in most cases one of their other favourite characters - Arya Stark - has spent three books in this precise state of existence.

It means NOTHING.

Yes, but all of that was resolved for us, the readers, within the book. We know where Stannis and Arya are. And on top of that, most people just think Arya's dead anyway. The situation is different because Jaime has been gone so long that other characters (Mostly just Cersei, but still) have actually taken note of it, yet we readers don't know what happened. The fact that the Jaime chapter that prompted all this discussion happens with still another roughly four hundred pages to go (Don't have the book with me, so I can't be exact), and yet we never saw a resolution, is what worries me. I know stuff was cut from Dance, so maybe it was supposed to be resolved initially, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that was one of the cut chapters, so the point stands that it isn't just that a character has gone missing; a perspective has gone missing.

Of course, it's entirely possible that it was just set up to be another cliff hanger. I'm willing to admit that. It just seems weird to me. I don't recall there having been a situation like this before, wherein other characters had already taken note that a POV character was missing, yet we readers didn't find out by the end of the book. Maybe I'm just overreacting since, as I said, Jaime is bar none my favorite character, and I'm just a tad bit paranoid and pessimistic. And in ten years (gods, I hope it doesn't take that long), I'll be happily reading Jaime chapters again and all will be well.

sigh

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I think major character deaths (or dramas) happen on camera (Robb, Ned, Jon, Joffrey, Lysa, Robert, Viserys, The Old Bear, Renly, Drogo, Oberyn, Quentyn, Tywin, Kevan) rather than off stage so whatever is going to happen to Jaime we will see in TWOW.

Yeah, but a part of me just can't shake the feeling that it would be so incredibly ironic. This is Jaime Lannister, Kingslayer, brother and lover to the Queen, son of the great Tywin, brother of the greater Tyrion, the man that pushed a kid out the window within the first hundred pages of the first book, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and a hundred other glories and titles that I could make up and probably delude myself into actually believing. Having him die off screen (off page?) would just be so... well, ironic. I can almost see GRRM going there. :leaving:

Unless we have an intervention from someone Stoneheart will listen to (Bran but how? The Blackfish but why? he doesn't believe in the redeemed Jaime) Jaime's only hope is Brienne. GRRM has put her in an impossible situation: in order to save Pod / Hyle Hunt who are innocent she must deliver up Jaime.

That reminds me. Bran is actually one of the only reasons I think Jaime might still be around. Since the first book, I've always felt like there would have to be another confrontation between Bran and Jaime. Somehow. Maybe it'll just be Bran watching through a tree, but I think he needs to at least see Jaime again and recognize him as the man who pushed him.

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As for him being missing for weeks, people forget that in Dance, the folks in White Harbour didn't even know that Stannis and ten thousand men were at the Wall. People are hanging vastly too much on the fact that one person has gone missing in the middle of a war, forgetting that he did this once already (on his way to Kings Landing with Brienne) and that in most cases one of their other favourite characters - Arya Stark - has spent three books in this precise state of existence.

Well, it can mean something.

We know that the Freys know fairly well who of theirs the BWB has hanged. It seems the method(s) of execution of the BWB is well known to the lords in the area. I also strongly believe that the BWB would be pretty smug if they managed to hang the Kingslayer. Someone would find him for sure, or the news would spread and *someone* would know. After all, he's not just some nobody missing, he is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the legendary Kingslayer etc etc. Had he been hanged together with the heir to Tarth, some rumour would have popped up.

This is actually the main reason I believe Jaime AND Brienne are both alive, since otherwise, they are highborn enough to cause a ruckus (and rumours) if they are found hanged.

The Riverlands are also not the North, which is vast, and with winter on its way for real, I doubt northerners are travelling around a lot, especially not up to the Wall. The Northerners apart from Bolton do not seem especially interested in being on speaking terms with the Lannisters either, so would not bother reporting anything from the north particularly.

That reminds me. Bran is actually one of the only reasons I think Jaime might still be around. Since the first book, I've always felt like there would have to be another confrontation between Bran and Jaime. Somehow. Maybe it'll just be Bran watching through a tree, but I think he needs to at least see Jaime again and recognize him as the man who pushed him.

If they are in the same cave as the Hound was brought to, it has a Weirwood there, no? It would mean Bran and Bloodraven have a way in.

Another way they could possibly be in the clear is if Stoneheart somehow grants Jaime a Trial by Combat, possibly with Brienne as his champion. But, Stoneheart is not Beric, so I don't know if this way will be available to them.

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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If they are in the same cave as the Hound was brought to, it has a Weirwood there, no? It would mean Bran and Bloodraven have a way in.

If there's a Weirwood right there, then it could definitely mean intervention from Bran, but that opens up so many questions! (which I love) Would Bran recognize Jaime immediately? Why in Westeros would he want to help the man that tried to kill him and left him without the use of his legs? HOW would he help? Would he talk to UnCat? Would she even be able to hear him? One of the other BWB? Which one, and what could a member of the BWB do? Jaime, Brienne, Pod, or Hyle? What would he tell him? And what about Bloodraven? I know there's been speculation that Bloodraven is the one who sent Jaime that weird dream he had back in SOS since he was sleeping with his head against the stump of a Weirwood tree. What does this mean about how Bloodraven feels about Jaime? Did he send that message as a warning or as a means of messing with his head? Would Bloodraven do anything to help Jaime and Brienne? So many questions and possibilities and I love it!

Another way they could possibly be in the clear is if Stoneheart somehow grants Jaime a Trial by Combat, possibly with Brienne as his champion. But, Stoneheart is not Beric, so I don't know if this way will be available to them.

I just can't really buy the Trial by Combat myself. It's difficult to imagine that UnCat would grant Jaime a chance to escape. Maybe, as has been said before, just to humiliate him since he can't win without his hand? Would he even be allowed a champion? I don't know. Maybe she would grant the trial, but then even if Jaime won somehow (with Brienne as his champion, or her as the one he has to fight and her throwing the fight, maybe?) UnCat would still insist he was guilty and have him killed anyway? I don't get the feeling that honor is up there on her list of priorities, especially if it gets in the way of her revenge. After all, she killed the Freys with no trial. Why would Jaime be an exception?

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I just can't really buy the Trial by Combat myself. It's difficult to imagine that UnCat would grant Jaime a chance to escape. Maybe, as has been said before, just to humiliate him since he can't win without his hand? Would he even be allowed a champion? I don't know. Maybe she would grant the trial, but then even if Jaime won somehow (with Brienne as his champion, or her as the one he has to fight and her throwing the fight, maybe?) UnCat would still insist he was guilty and have him killed anyway? I don't get the feeling that honor is up there on her list of priorities, especially if it gets in the way of her revenge. After all, she killed the Freys with no trial. Why would Jaime be an exception?

Indeed. That is why I feel it needs to almost be a Deus Ex Machina to get both Jaime and Brienne out of this situation, like something or someone appearing for it to stop (Bran or the Blackfish have been ideas circulating, I believe).

It would make sense if it was somehow Bran and Bloodraven intervening. There is also this oddity I caught somewhere:

Apparently in a Russian version the translator got an earlier version of the novel and in the Brienne chapter there were lots of ravens, which would indicate it had something to do with Bran/Bloodraven.

There has been a thread about it here somewhere on the forums, but I can't find it at the moment.

But the question remains: can Bran and Bloodraven even influence UnCat? Bran is after all rather familiar with Undead possible relatives after having spent some time with Coldhands.

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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Indeed. That is why I feel it needs to almost be a Deus Ex Machina to get both Jaime and Brienne out of this situation, like something or someone appearing for it to stop (Bran or the Blackfish have been ideas circulating, I believe).

It would make sense if it was somehow Bran and Bloodraven intervening. There is also this oddity I caught somewhere:

Apparently in a Russian version the translator got an earlier version of the novel and in the Brienne chapter there were lots of ravens, which would indicate it had something to do with Bran/Bloodraven.

There has been a thread about it here somewhere on the forums, but I can't find it at the moment.

But the question remains: can Bran and Bloodraven even influence UnCat? Bran is after all rather familiar with Undead possible relatives after having spent some time with Coldhands.

That's very interesting. But it begs the question,

why were the ravens cut out at all? Maybe GRRM was worried about it being too obvious?

Gosh, now I'm hungrier for WoW than ever.

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I believe you've both forgotten the true moving piece of this puzzle. Lady or ladies and gentleman or men I present to you the one, the only...

THOROS OF MYR!!!!!!! *applause*

If there's ever been a sub-character with an arc it's this guy. Starts out as comedy, gets religion and a purpose, gains magic, now we've last seen him realizing that without Beric Dondarion the BWB are exactly what the Hound said they were: no better than him, bandits and outcasts who think they're better than everyone else for no reason at all.

I absolutely believe Thoros will play a crucial part in this resolution. He's uncomfortable with the fact Lady Stoneheart is Unalive, he's uncomfortable with what the BWB have become, he's uncomfortable with what was done to Brienne, and I sincerely doubt that he's comfortable with the treatment of Podrick Payne.

Now is the time for him to snap and do something about it.

Side note: What's a warning point? That wasn't there last time I was on.

Edited by iamthedave

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^ Yeah, I agree that Thoros' potential part in this has not been discussed enough. I mean, it's not guaranteed he'll do something. He's just sat by and watched Stoneheart do whatever she wants so far, but it's also true that a lot more has happened this time around, particularly in regards to the treatment of Brienne and Pod. But it begs the question: What is he going to do? Will he revive Jaime or Brienne? Can he somehow unUnLife UnCat?

Maybe he'll be the one Bran talks to?

I think I would love to see him snap and breathe fire on UnCat 'til she's just a smoldering pile of Unashes. :D

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The thing is, I think this is the first time Thoros has seen Stoneheart coldly execute a genuinely good person who has not only not done anything wrong, but who was last seen saving the people the BWB claim to be protecting from Rorge and Biter, at enormous cost to herself.

Plus he was really shaken by finding out Lem is wearing the Hound's helm. I really think the dam's broken this time.

In the event they do die, I can see GRRM backdooring it by indeed having him breathe the Kiss of Life into one or the other of them, and dying in the process like Beric did for UnCat.

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^ In that case, I think it would more likely be Brienne than Jaime. He has more of a reason to think she's a good person than he does Jaime.

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I believe you've both forgotten the true moving piece of this puzzle. Lady or ladies and gentleman or men I present to you the one, the only...

THOROS OF MYR!!!!!!! *applause*

Good point. And aren't quite a few of the BWB Rh'ollorites as well? If it's a question of Stoneheart vs Thoros, he might hold some sway. That might be a way to grant Jamienne a Trial by Combat, for one, since Thoros was there when Beric fought the Hound. It seems the BWB is getting split in the middle: one part as the Robin Hood like outlaws, and the other, more murderous faction under Lady Stoneheart.

One thing tho: at the Red Wedding, Roose Bolton says, when he stabs Robb Stark: "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", so I think UnCat will stop at nothing to get her hands on Jaime again. She probably thinks Jaime was in on it, even though at the time he was having his hand lopped off and was busy fighting bears.

And yes, if someone gets the Kiss of Life from Thoros, it sounds like Brienne is more likely. But ugh, UnBrienne? It's neater if it's Jaime, since Brienne already said at Harrenhall when he came walking through the mist in the bath that he looked "Half a corpse and half a God".

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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Personally, I'm not too eager to see anymore UnCharacters at all. <_<

It gets a little ridiculous when any character can just be casually brought back, even though they might not be themselves anymore.

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My ongoing joke is that people in Westeros are born with 1ups.

Sadly, death isn't quite what it used to be. This is the unfortunate downside of GRRM's style of writing. He can't always have a cliffhanger, sooner or later someone has to go off the cliff. And unfortunately, sooner or later that person needs to be not dead. We've got tons of people who were supposed to be dead that aren't now, though in most cases they were just rumoured dead. Problem is, a crutch is a crutch, and it's wearing thin.

I find it actually quite depressing that nobody buys Jon Snow's death. I don't even buy it. And it's all because Martin went and 'undid' death.

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To be fair, I think some of the reason people don't think Jon is dead is because there's still a lot that seems like it needs to happen in his story, like him finding out who his parents are, etc. And some people think he's not going to die period, that he's just injured. Still, I'm sure a significantly greater portion of us readers would believe Jon is dead if it wasn't for UnBeric and UnCat and possible UnGregor.

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