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Lord Davos Seaworth

The future of Jaime and Brienne?

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To be fair, I think some of the reason people don't think Jon is dead is because there's still a lot that seems like it needs to happen in his story, like him finding out who his parents are, etc. And some people think he's not going to die period, that he's just injured. Still, I'm sure a significantly greater portion of us readers would believe Jon is dead if it wasn't for UnBeric and UnCat and possible UnGregor.

Very true. I can personally live with no more UnPeople ever, but as Melisandre has seen Jon Snow in her fires, and his face flickering into that of Ghost, it seems fairly well foreshadowed that he is going to get ressed by Mel and that he is either AA or TPTWP.

When it comes to Jaime and Brienne though, it's less clear cut. I believe GRRM has said he has other scenes to write as hard as the Red Wedding, so that means the characters are not necessarily safe, even with UnDeath around.

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I think that Brienne will be sent by Stoneheart to kill Jaime, but once Brienne confronts him that all changes. It sounds cheesy but I think at that point Jaime and Brienne realize how much they mean to one another, and have a brief but intense romance. Then, somehow Brienne gets killed. She "dies happy" because at last she has known, and experienced true love. Jaime becomes very sad, and then very angry over these events, and something(I'm not going to venture a guess at this point)takes him back to Cersei, and this is when Jaime kills Cersei.

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Lem wearing the Hound's helm is the perfect image for what BWB is now.

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Very true. I can personally live with no more UnPeople ever, but as Melisandre has seen Jon Snow in her fires, and his face flickering into that of Ghost, it seems fairly well foreshadowed that he is going to get ressed by Mel and that he is either AA or TPTWP.

When it comes to Jaime and Brienne though, it's less clear cut. I believe GRRM has said he has other scenes to write as hard as the Red Wedding, so that means the characters are not necessarily safe, even with UnDeath around.

/stabs prophecies

Really hate the increased prophecy focus in this series.

Anyway, personal gripe aside you're quite correct. Oh one more /stabs Melissandre. Can't stand that character.

I doubt GRRM will kill both of them, but I'll be surprised if they both get out of this alive. I can't be the only Brienne fan who has noticed that ASOIF-era GRRM apparently hates honour and that honourable people exist to be **** upon from a great height, so her chances of anything approaching a happy ending are the chances of Arya learning how to be a proper lady. I think a noble self-sacrifice is the best to be expected, and her sacrificing herself so Jaime can live would fit neatly. Especially since it would make Jaime loathe himself even more, but could also be the final thing to galvanize him to becoming a good man (seeing someone with genuine honour sacrifice themselves so he can live).

It would fit Brienne/Jaime's relationship arc as well, she seems very much to represent the knight Jaime wishes he could have been but the world would not permit him to become.

Personally I hope they both survive the series. I'm sick of honourable and/or good people being ground down and destroyed. I got the message multiple characters ago.

If I'm right and Brienne dies - and unfortunately she is by far the least 'important' of the two - I expect she'll tell him what she's learned about the Stark kids before she goes. As it stands her greatest importance stems from being the only character with current information.

Another option - an outside one but not implausible - is that Jaime is horribly injured in surviving and ends up on the Quiet Isle with Sandor, hence why he drops off the radar for the time period. That would be a way to get Sandor back into the series, and we have every reason to expect he'll play a part eventually.

Edited by iamthedave

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Lem wearing the Hound's helm is the perfect image for what BWB is now.

Well, I agree that this seems to be true. It also makes me wonder if this means Lem will have another appearance, or do something important since the Hound persona has turned a bit into the Dread Pirate Roberts of Westeros. Some people seem to think Brienne will pick it up, but if it symbolises Sandor Clegane's Hound persona and that rage, then I can't see the Maid of Tarth running around with it.

If I'm right and Brienne dies - and unfortunately she is by far the least 'important' of the two - I expect she'll tell him what she's learned about the Stark kids before she goes. As it stands her greatest importance stems from being the only character with current information.

Another option - an outside one but not implausible - is that Jaime is horribly injured in surviving and ends up on the Quiet Isle with Sandor, hence why he drops off the radar for the time period. That would be a way to get Sandor back into the series, and we have every reason to expect he'll play a part eventually.

I agree with you that it seems premature for Jaime to die, but then it seems odd to off Brienne as well since she's a POV character and at least semi-important, and she hasn't really had any huge role to play yet, apart from assisting Jaime in Harrenhal, but that was before her own POVs. I mean sure, theoretically her entire plot line has basically been to have a bit of exposition of one of Vary's spies reaching Sansa, that Dontos' life was sad, that Randyll Tarly still suffers from massive dickitude and that Sandor Clegane is alive. Sure those are all good and important plot points, but are they enough to off her POV? I am not sure. Quentyn has a more defined goal and mind, so it made sense that he got offed.

In this instance, logically, it seems Jaime is done for, since he got released by Cat before. But on the other hand, his storyline seems far from done, since it seems there is a setup for a showdown between Tyrion and Jaime, plus the whole "Cersei and Jaime need to leave the world together" thing.

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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I agree with you that it seems premature for Jaime to die, but then it seems odd to off Brienne as well since she's a POV character and at least semi-important, and she hasn't really had any huge role to play yet, apart from assisting Jaime in Harrenhal, but that was before her own POVs. I mean sure, theoretically her entire plot line has basically been to have a bit of exposition of one of Vary's spies reaching Sansa, that Dontos' life was sad, that Randyll Tarly still suffers from massive dickitude and that Sandor Clegane is alive. Sure those are all good and important plot points, but are they enough to off her POV? I am not sure. Quentyn has a more defined goal and mind, so it made sense that he got offed.

In this instance, logically, it seems Jaime is done for, since he got released by Cat before. But on the other hand, his storyline seems far from done, since it seems there is a setup for a showdown between Tyrion and Jaime, plus the whole "Cersei and Jaime need to leave the world together" thing.

The thing is that - as many people have pointed out - Brienne's entire POV accomplishes nothing in Feast. She bumbles around doing nothing of note until she lucks into a little relevant information. It seems quite feasible to me that her only purpose is in relation to Jaime and she'll be axed once she's fulfilled her purpose in Jaime's character arc.

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The thing is that - as many people have pointed out - Brienne's entire POV accomplishes nothing in Feast. She bumbles around doing nothing of note until she lucks into a little relevant information. It seems quite feasible to me that her only purpose is in relation to Jaime and she'll be axed once she's fulfilled her purpose in Jaime's character arc.

True, but that also means her information will have to be somehow transmitted.Sure, the Elder Brother knows it, but he's not likely going to tell anyone anytime soon, I think.

On the other hand, Brienne is still on her quest to find Sansa, so in that sense she is not yet done. Her oath to Cat still stands, as does her oath to Jaime, so in a sense even if Jaime dies, I could see Brienne continuing to honour that oath.

Also, we have Jaime's Weirdwood dream where Brienne and Jaime are facing the seven ghosts of his past, and Jaime's sword goes out, but Brienne's continues to burn. It seems to indicate that Jaime's future and development is tied to Brienne.

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I doubt GRRM will kill both of them, but I'll be surprised if they both get out of this alive. I can't be the only Brienne fan who has noticed that ASOIF-era GRRM apparently hates honour and that honourable people exist to be **** upon from a great height, so her chances of anything approaching a happy ending are the chances of Arya learning how to be a proper lady.

Personally I hope they both survive the series. I'm sick of honourable and/or good people being ground down and destroyed. I got the message multiple characters ago.

:agree:

I know Geroge doesn't want to do stereotyoes but I have been wondering if someone should tell him that the good guys win in the end. Who knows? Maybe they won't. Somewhere in AFFC when Qyburn was doing whatever he was to people, Cersei was planning to butcher every last dwarf on the face of the earth, Myrcella was getting maimed and Brienne eaten, I did think, "woah George, we get the picture, things are as bad as they can get, now its time to turn the corner".

Seems to me George is just too good at writing grisly endings - Red Wedding, Sack of Winterfell, Fist of the First Men - to give us something different - Quentyn's "dragontaming", Jon stabbed to death (?), Stannis apparently defeated and killed (?). And then there's the unsettling direction Bran and Arya are moving in, not to mention Jaime and Brienne's predicament.

Now that winter has arrived and the Others are presumably about to hit their full strength I expect things to get even grimmer :crying:

Edited by the trees have eyes

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The thing is that - as many people have pointed out - Brienne's entire POV accomplishes nothing in Feast. She bumbles around doing nothing of note until she lucks into a little relevant information. It seems quite feasible to me that her only purpose is in relation to Jaime and she'll be axed once she's fulfilled her purpose in Jaime's character arc.

In terms of plot I agree that her purpose so far might be mostly derivative of Jaime's (and to a lesser extent Cat's), but I think those chapters in Feast were all about the horrors of war, and I loved them. I thought Septon Meribald's long monologue was amazing, and I maintain that Hyle Hunt is one of the more realistic feeling and interesting characters we've been introduced to. The differences (and similarities) between the ways he treats Brienne and the ways that Randyll Tarly & co did were phenomenally well-played, I thought.

That's stuff I didn't pick up until I read it a second time, because the first time I was too concerned with what was going to happen. So, I can kind of understand the frustration with that, but Martin's reflections on the cost of war are a big part of what sets this series apart from a lot of others, for me. I loved the nooks and crannies of the world Brienne explored in AFFC and I found the ways that world reacted to her to be extremely compelling (even if she herself does not always feel very realistic to me).

Also, we have Jaime's Weirdwood dream where Brienne and Jaime are facing the seven ghosts of his past, and Jaime's sword goes out, but Brienne's continues to burn. It seems to indicate that Jaime's future and development is tied to Brienne.

Good point, can't wait to see how all this pans out.

I know Geroge doesn't want to do stereotyoes but I have been wondering if someone should tell him that the good guys win in the end. Who knows? Maybe they won't. Somewhere in AFFC when Qyburn was doing whatever he was to people, Cersei was planning to butcher every last dwarf on the face of the earth, Myrcella was getting maimed and Brienne eaten, I did think, "woah George, we get the picture, things are as bad as they can get, now its time to turn the corner".

Seems to me George is just too good at writing grisly endings - Red Wedding, Sack of Winterfell, Fist of the First Men - to give us something different - Quentyn's "dragontaming", Jon stabbed to death (?), Stannis apparently defeated and killed (?). And then there's the unsettling direction Bran and Arya are moving in, not to mention Jaime and Brienne's predicament.

Now that winter has arrived and the Others are presumably about to hit their full strength I expect things to get even grimmer :crying:

You might be on to something. All the discussion of dragon riders has always felt kind of out of step with the mood of this series to me, and I wonder if/how he can write things starting to work out.

I don't think Arya's or Bran's path is all that dark, though. Bran's will be sad, because he's probably never leaving that cave, but I still feel pretty sure he'll be a force for good (and I think the eating Jojen talk is a wild misreading of the text, but I guess we'll see). And I don't think the FM are so bad. In a world where reanimation is clearly dangerous, being devoted to the gift doesn't seem so dark. Think about Sabriel. Assassins for hire are a little amoral, but it's a hell of a lot cleaner than open battle (the costs of which Martin has been emphasizing and reemphasizing). Plus their founding story is all about escaping slavery. They're all right in my book.

Edited by darrylzero

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In terms of plot I agree that her purpose so far might be mostly derivative of Jaime's (and to a lesser extent Cat's), but I think those chapters in Feast were all about the horrors of war, and I loved them. I thought Septon Meribald's long monologue was amazing, and I maintain that Hyle Hunt is one of the more realistic feeling and interesting characters we've been introduced to. The differences (and similarities) between the ways he treats Brienne and the ways that Randyll Tarly & co did were phenomenally well-played, I thought.

That's stuff I didn't pick up until I read it a second time, because the first time I was too concerned with what was going to happen. So, I can kind of understand the frustration with that, but Martin's reflections on the cost of war are a big part of what sets this series apart from a lot of others, for me. I loved the nooks and crannies of the world Brienne explored in AFFC and I found the ways that world reacted to her to be extremely compelling (even if she herself does not always feel very realistic to me).

Good point, can't wait to see how all this pans out.

You might be on to something. All the discussion of dragon riders has always felt kind of out of step with the mood of this series to me, and I wonder if/how he can write things starting to work out.

I don't think Arya's or Bran's path is all that dark, though. Bran's will be sad, because he's probably never leaving that cave, but I still feel pretty sure he'll be a force for good (and I think the eating Jojen talk is a wild misreading of the text, but I guess we'll see). And I don't think the FM are so bad. In a world where reanimation is clearly dangerous, being devoted to the gift doesn't seem so dark. Think about Sabriel. Assassins for hire are a little amoral, but it's a hell of a lot cleaner than open battle (the costs of which Martin has been emphasizing and reemphasizing). Plus their founding story is all about escaping slavery. They're all right in my book.

If there is one thing I understand about GRRM, he tries to stick to reality as much as possible. Why should all Stark children be turning into good adults? After all they are growing up in different circumstances. Even with Targereyens, Viserys was messed up in the mind because of the huge responsibility of reviving his line. WHy should Arya, who has met shady characters all the way, should turn all goody goody? Bran might not be corrupted, thanks to the high speed access to world wide weirwood. But Arya might end up causing suffering to her family, unknowingly.

:agree:

I know Geroge doesn't want to do stereotyoes but I have been wondering if someone should tell him that the good guys win in the end. Who knows? Maybe they won't. Somewhere in AFFC when Qyburn was doing whatever he was to people, Cersei was planning to butcher every last dwarf on the face of the earth, Myrcella was getting maimed and Brienne eaten, I did think, "woah George, we get the picture, things are as bad as they can get, now its time to turn the corner".

Seems to me George is just too good at writing grisly endings - Red Wedding, Sack of Winterfell, Fist of the First Men - to give us something different - Quentyn's "dragontaming", Jon stabbed to death (?), Stannis apparently defeated and killed (?). And then there's the unsettling direction Bran and Arya are moving in, not to mention Jaime and Brienne's predicament.

Now that winter has arrived and the Others are presumably about to hit their full strength I expect things to get even grimmer :crying:

Guess we are moving adrift from the topic at hand, Jamie and Brienne. True, GRRM might have a grim ending after all, but he should as well do it in style. The Kingslayer definitely won't die unless his path crosses Dany, whose father he killed. She must get a first hand account of why he did it. Brienne is a character that appeals to feminists, she has to get her due as well.

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In terms of plot I agree that her purpose so far might be mostly derivative of Jaime's (and to a lesser extent Cat's), but I think those chapters in Feast were all about the horrors of war, and I loved them. I thought Septon Meribald's long monologue was amazing, and I maintain that Hyle Hunt is one of the more realistic feeling and interesting characters we've been introduced to. The differences (and similarities) between the ways he treats Brienne and the ways that Randyll Tarly & co did were phenomenally well-played, I thought.

I loved the war exposition as well, and I think many of Brienne's chapters set the scene for the next book, with Varys' spies looking for Sansa, Sandor on the QI, The Brotherhood Without Banners, Tarly in Maidenpool (and I have some thoughts about Tarly as well!) and Jaime's faith all tied together. Plus we got Brienne finishing off some Bloody Mummers, Rorge and Biter.

It also seems odd to build up Hyle Hunt and Pod only to go "and then they got hanged by the BWB. The end."

Guess we are moving adrift from the topic at hand, Jamie and Brienne. True, GRRM might have a grim ending after all, but he should as well do it in style. The Kingslayer definitely won't die unless his path crosses Dany, whose father he killed. She must get a first hand account of why he did it. Brienne is a character that appeals to feminists, she has to get her due as well.

Not sure why Brienne in particular would appeal to feminists? :dunno:

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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Not sure why Brienne in particular would appeal to feminists? :dunno:

Because she is a woman in a man's profession. She represents strong-willed and able-bodied women who don't give a damn about what others think of them. She crushes Jaime's pride and makes him respect her.

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Because she is a woman in a man's profession. She represents strong-willed and able-bodied women who don't give a damn about what others think of them. She crushes Jaime's pride and makes him respect her.

Being a woman in a man's profession is not a feminist statement per se though, and being freakishly strong, or "able bodied" is not really that either. Sure, Brienne illustrates some of the problems with being a woman in a man's world, but so do Asha, Arya, Dany, Cat and Sansa. And Cersei, too. All of the major female characters illustrate, in their own way, how and when it's difficult to be a woman in a world where men generally rule.

Cat wasn't listened to by the northmen since she was a woman, but going for peace had been the better choice for Robb at that time. Cersei is bitter that she cannot carry a sword and fight like a man. Sansa has realised that being a maid means being a piece of meat to be married off for her claim. Asha had an uphill battle to try and claim the Seastone Chair despite being competent and able and instead ended up being married off by proxy. Etc etc. There is a lot of commentary in all the female POVs on different facets of misogyny, sexism, how it is living as a woman in a man's world and what they can do to get around it, and what they can't do.

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I know Geroge doesn't want to do stereotyoes but I have been wondering if someone should tell him that the good guys win in the end. Who knows? Maybe they won't.

George explicitly said in the intervew given in Poland last years "good guys win in the end but it will be bittersweet". Of course it remains to be seen who exactly he considers good guys.

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It's been a while since I read AFfC, but my belief is that UnCat wants a live Sansa far more than she wants a dead Jaime. I don't believe Brienne was killed and then revived by Thoros because the refusal of the dead to stay dead is getting a little silly now, a dozen years after the first appearance of UnCat at the end of ASoS. Brienne's neck obviously wasn't snapped during her hanging and death by strangulation takes a while. Her screamed word was enough for UnCat to have her cut down from the noose, and she's persuaded UnCat that she will go and slay Jaime.

But it's inconceivable that Brienne, who is the purest knight we've encountered in the story (and ironically not acknowledged as one because of her sex), would cut down the crippled Jaime Lannister. It's entirely dishonorable and I can't see Brienne doing it, not even to save Podrick Payne and Hile Hunt. I think she'll bring Jaime back to Lady Stoneheart and the BwB. And I think that Jaime will talk his way out of her imprisonment just as he did at Riverrun - probably by swearing to fufill his promise wrt Sansa - and go on to meet his end at the hands of one or the other of his siblings.

Edited by BoldAsYouPlease

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Being a woman in a man's profession is not a feminist statement per se though, and being freakishly strong, or "able bodied" is not really that either. Sure, Brienne illustrates some of the problems with being a woman in a man's world, but so do Asha, Arya, Dany, Cat and Sansa. And Cersei, too. All of the major female characters illustrate, in their own way, how and when it's difficult to be a woman in a world where men generally rule.

Cat wasn't listened to by the northmen since she was a woman, but going for peace had been the better choice for Robb at that time. Cersei is bitter that she cannot carry a sword and fight like a man. Sansa has realised that being a maid means being a piece of meat to be married off for her claim. Asha had an uphill battle to try and claim the Seastone Chair despite being competent and able and instead ended up being married off by proxy. Etc etc. There is a lot of commentary in all the female POVs on different facets of misogyny, sexism, how it is living as a woman in a man's world and what they can do to get around it, and what they can't do.

Agreed. I was just pointing out that the rest of the women are using their feminine traits to their advantage. Asha and Cersei use their sexuality as a weapon, Cersei and Cat strive to protect their children, Sansa's Cat-like looks keep her from harm from Littlefinger, Arya uses grace in her swordsmanship. But Brienne uses none of her feminine traits, she represents a certain section of women which none of the others can portray. Her character getting wiped off without achieving anything important would be a blow to such an audience.

It's been a while since I read AFfC, but my belief is that UnCat wants a live Sansa far more than she wants a dead Jaime. I don't believe Brienne was killed and then revived by Thoros because the refusal of the dead to stay dead is getting a little silly now, a dozen years after the first appearance of UnCat at the end of ASoS. Brienne's neck obviously wasn't snapped during her hanging and death by strangulation takes a while. Her screamed word was enough for UnCat to have her cut down from the noose, and she's persuaded UnCat that she will go and slay Jaime.

But it's inconceivable that Brienne, who is the purest knight we've encountered in the story (and ironically not acknowledged as one because of her sex), would cut down the crippled Jaime Lannister. It's entirely dishonorable and I can't see Brienne doing it, not even to save Podrick Payne and Hile Hunt. I think she'll bring Jaime back to Lady Stoneheart and the BwB. And I think that Jaime will talk his way out of her imprisonment just as he did at Riverrun - probably by swearing to fufill his promise wrt Sansa - and go on to meet his end at the hands of one or the other of his siblings.

Brienne is too naive to be tricking Jamie to death. If she is getting Jamie, she believes he won't be killed, only questioned. I don't understand why he would meet his end at the hand of his siblings though.

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If there is one thing I understand about GRRM, he tries to stick to reality as much as possible. Why should all Stark children be turning into good adults? After all they are growing up in different circumstances. Even with Targereyens, Viserys was messed up in the mind because of the huge responsibility of reviving his line. WHy should Arya, who has met shady characters all the way, should turn all goody goody? Bran might not be corrupted, thanks to the high speed access to world wide weirwood. But Arya might end up causing suffering to her family, unknowingly.

Well, the Starks had pretty rad parents by Westerosi standards. Jon didn't have it so easy, and Rickon's been parent-less from a pretty early age, but the other ones had a pretty lengthy experience of a pretty supportive environment, at least compared to their peers. It's not so outlandish.

Brienne is too naive to be tricking Jamie to death. If she is getting Jamie, she believes he won't be killed, only questioned. I don't understand why he would meet his end at the hand of his siblings though.

I'd probably say that Brienne is too naive to trick Jaime at all. It shouldn't take him long to figure out what's really going on. Even if it were for really noble and important reasons, I have trouble imagining her lie well (or Jaime being easily deceived).

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I don't understand why he would meet his end at the hand of his siblings though.

Well, Martin has had Cersei tell us a few times that she and Jaime will leave the world together, as they entered it. Combine that with the 'valonquar' prophecy and you have the possibility that Tywin's twins will off each other somehow. And Tyrion's last words to Jaime also indicated some deadly final encounter between them. A lot of fore-shadowing is going to go to waste if the BwB just hangs Jaime.

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I'd probably say that Brienne is too naive to trick Jaime at all. It shouldn't take him long to figure out what's really going on. Even if it were for really noble and important reasons, I have trouble imagining her lie well (or Jaime being easily deceived).

My thought has been that Brienne simply told him that the Hound held Sansa to draw him away without further questions and she'll reveal the true situation to him once they're away from his camp and retinue. I agree that Brienne is both innocent and naive, but she obviously isn't too naive to trick Jaime at all, since we know she drew him away from his camp with a lie.

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