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Lord Davos Seaworth

The future of Jaime and Brienne?

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Some people think the dream in which the light of his sword goes out, but Brienne's sword stays lit, means that he will die and she will live. I think it means that his life is attached to hers. He lives because her sword stays lit, because as long as she is fighting for him (physically and emotionally), he will be ok. I am a little frightened they might die at the end of the series, but not worried too much about their dying in book six. I actually do think they will both survive the whole thing, although I will stress until that moment comes.

Edited by Jolene Brown

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To be honest, I think it would be refreshing if the series just let someone, anyone, have their "happily ever after". I would like Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella and Brienne to run away to Essos and live in luxury and happiness for the rest of their lives, with Tyrion getting Casterly Rock and Edric Storm or Gendry getting Storm's End.

This will never happen.

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The more I think about the more I'm certain that Jaime will die.....he's just done too many morally wrong things. And he has to atone for them. He'll probably do something to earn redemption but at this point its looking impossible to see what act he could perform that would wash out his former sins.

Brienne will live.

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I love the mocking nickname he gives himself in AFFC, "Goldenhand the Just," and I think it would be hilarious if that was how he was remembered 1000 years from now, as sort of a commentary on the game of telegraph that is history. I like the way Martin is walking the tightrope of making him a better man who still does some dark things - the trebuchet threat and the way he reminds Lord Blackwood's Hoster hostage son that the whole thing is not a joke and that he WILL hang him if his dad screws up. I don't know that I believe he would have done the trebuchet thing but in the latter case, yes, I think he would do it, although he'd probably be sort of sad about it. I think that in a series like this that is safer for him in terms of his long-term longevity than turning into a true good guy. I think he's not quite good enough to die heroically at the end and not quite bad enough to be punished for his sins. Or maybe that's just what I hope!

Edited by Jolene Brown

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I love the mocking nickname he gives himself in AFFC, "Goldenhand the Just," and I think it would be hilarious if that was how he was remembered 1000 years from now, as sort of a commentary on the game of telegraph that is history.

My theory is that the Kingslayer and Goldenhand will be remembered as two different people, literally.

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My theory is that the Kingslayer and Goldenhand will be remembered as two different people, literally.

It would be interested if they were remembered as brothers, or twins. Like Arryk and Erryk or Left and Right.

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After watching the TV show and rereading the books, I thought it was really interesting how important killing Stannis is to Brienne. They especially make it a really big deal in the TV show. She promises allegiance to Cat only after Cat promises to never stop her in any way from getting her vengeance. This makes me think that the Brienne doesn’t yell sword, but actually yells Stannis on the off chance that Lady Stoneheart will remember this promise in her past life and that if she killed Brienne now, she would be going back on her promise.

Does Lady Stoneheart care about promises? As far as I can tell, LS is the epitome of giving zero fucks. She does however definitely get vengeance. I think that yelling Stannis is kind of left field enough to make LS and BWB to hesitate… like kind of a collective WTF moment. I’m thinking LS is clever enough to realize that she can use Brienne if she agrees to let her go off and be on her merry way to kill Stannis. I think it will go down as something like “Okay, you want Stannis? Bring Jamie Lannister back to me ALONE and I will allow you to live and go kill Stannis. We may even help you kill Stannis. We will keep Pod and Hyle as hostages so you keep your word. And we will let them go when you are done” but the dialogue will obviously be more Lady Stoneheart ish. Of course, I don’t think Lady Stoneheart would actually let Brienne go once she brings Jamie back, but I think she realizes that Jamie is much bigger catch than Brienne and that Brienne is the perfect bait. Brienne is the key to her vengeance, and LS will be willing to take the chance that Brienne’s wish for vengeance is as strong as LS’s own, and that Brienne will come back not only to save Hyle and Pod, but also because there will be an off chance that LS and BWB will help her kill Stannis. Or maybe LS will promise it outright. Give me Jamie and I will give you Stannis. Either way, I see LS believing in the power of vengeance to bring Brienne back but not really planning on keeping her own word at all.

Now Brienne isn’t an idiot, and I think she has seen enough of LS to realize that LS is NOT Cat Stark any longer, and therefore most certainly going to break her word. So she does find Jamie and possibly feeds him a bullshit story about Sansa, and tells him later OR tells him the truth first and they pass along the bullshit story. I mean there HAS to be a bullshit story here. You think Jamie is just going to be like “Oh just going to battle with Zombie Cat Stark. BRB.” No. Of course they would lie to others and the Sansa Stark story fits because clearly Jamie Lannister would be interested in finding her seeing as she is technically his sister-in-law and still an important player as an heir to winterfell. It isn’t far-fetched for others in the story to believe that he would go after her with one other fighter if Sansa is only with the Hound.

So Jamie and Brienne form a master plan while on their way to LS and her BWB. I am not sure what this will entail, but I think Jamie will admit his shortcomings to Brienne (he will have to!) and this will be a huge development for him as a character and for their relationship. I think that they will be ultimately pretty nervous about their plan as well, something we have never really seen in Jamie before.

So they show up together and LS will be all like “Good work minion” to Brienne. Now here’s where I may be getting far-fetched. I am thinking that maybe a few of the BWB members will be kind of uncomfortable with LS’s plans to kill Brienne even after Brienne brings Jamie back. I could especially see Gendry being uncomfortable. As far as many of the Brotherhood are concerned, Brienne would have to seem pretty honorable in their eyes. So I have one of two theories about how things will play out when Brienne brings Jamie back to LS

1. 1. LS will be like “Thanks for bringing him but I’m going to kill you and your friends anyway.” Before Jamie and Brienne have time to enact their super cool plan (which would have resulted in failure anyway), the brother hood, or some members of brotherhood will revolt. YEAH MUTINY! Basically, they will just not be cool with LS going back on her word. Cue bloodshed. Jamie, Brienne, and Pod will definitely live but I could see Gendry or Ser Hyle dying. And maybe LS if we are lucky, but I kind of doubt it.

2. 2. This isn’t an original theory and I read it on here in a different thread so I cannot take credit for this… but someone posted something about the Nymeria the dire wolf and her pack showing up, providing chaos and a chance for Jamie and Brienne to both escape certain death. This is why it is vital that it is night when Brienne and Jamie find LS and BWB. This just would be fucking awesome. Nymeria saving Jamie’s skin… amazing. LS would still be all like sorry going to kill you all anyway, and again before Jamie and Brienne have a chance to put their plan in to action, the wolf pack attacks. There would be blood and mass chaos. I also just have this image of Nymeria not attacking, but just sitting on a knoll surveying the whole scene with cool eyes, sort of detached. I could see her sort of judging LS, and LS realizing it with a start… feeling maybe a sense of shame. I mean, I don’t think much could make LS feel bad, but she is an entirely unnatural being while Nymeria is the opposite. There is also the conflicting sources of magic that both are tied to; LS tied to R’hlor and Nymeria tied to the warging/Old Gods/North. I just see Nymeria looking at LS like she is a fool, and LS therefore feeling like a fool. I also think Jamie Lannister would have to recognize the creature as a dire wolf, and recognize it as one that belonged to one of the Stark girls. A Stark direwolf saving Jamie Lannister’s ass would be perfect in my opinion.

I really prefer the wolf intervention as opposed to the mutiny, but they are not mutually exclusive and could be mixed together. The reason why I love the wolf intervention is because it plays more on GRRM’s writing style AND because this would also provide a link to Arya. This, as far as I know, is my original idea on the wolf intervention: Arya could dream about this scene and literally see it all before her. She would see the absolute monster her mother has become, and to be honest, although I love Arya, she is headed down the same path. She is all about vengeance which we all now see as her being super badass, but ultimately it is pretty unhealthy. What will become of Arya after she has finished her list? I think seeing LS will kind of wake Arya up… it will be like looking into her own future if she stays on her current path… I think it’s pretty clear that she is just planning on using her Faceless training as a means to kill everyone who has ever wronged her and not to actually become Faceless in the whole essence of the word. Arya’s presence in the direwolf could also serve to further shame LS… maybe LS would be able to sense her daughter’s presence in the wolf or just at least remember her daughter and therefore remember who LS used to be and stand for when she was Cat.

Arya would also see Jamie and Brienne and maybe sees something or overhears something about how they are trying to find her and Sansa – so she knows that Jamie is not as evil as previously thought. Arya warging/dreaming through Nymeria would also serve to further tie her to her actual identity. After the dream, I think it is possible that the kindly man either tells Arya that she will never be able to be “no one” and that she is still way too tied to her past, or Arya will accept this herself and tell the kindly man she must return to who she was. Either way she will leave. But she will leave with an awesome set of skills (Liam Neeson style), therefore rendering her time and story line in Braavos done, but not wasted. Plus, I think we all want Arya back in Westeros and that would be a pretty perfect way to get her back there.

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I think maybe Undead Cat will be sending Jaime and Brienne up North to find and rescue Bran perhaps she has heard news of Bran and Rickon's survival? The man who crippled Bran at the beginning will be the one to save him at the end. I don't think Jaime's role is finished yet, He still has to make it back to Kings Landing to kill Cersei.

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so heres my prediction.

its pretty farfetched but i think brienne and jamie will meet with lady stoneheart and jaimie will be imprisoned. whilst jamies imprisoned and awaiting death lady stoneheart will get news that stannis has arya , jaimie will hear this from brienne and decide to tell lady stoneheart that he will keep his oath to her to help return her daughters to her and brienne will swear his honesty.

he will then either lead the brotherhood north or command his lanisters to follow him north to get lady stoneheart arya. they will run into stannis dead and will continue north to the wall to find jon snow dead and melisandre there trying to revive him and keeping his body in the salt

below

the wall, the wildlings would explain that he was a warg and that he was still alive inside ghost.

thoros the red priest will then say that they will need to burn ghost in order for him to give his body "the kiss of life" and bring his body back to life as he did with lady stoneheart (or lady stoneheart will see he is better able to protect her family because she is practically a walking corpse and decide to give him her "fire") melisandre will then burn ghost and before he is dead brienne will feel sorry for ghost and give it a quick death with oathkeeper.

thoros will then revive jon snow or lady stoneheart will, then whilst a part of jon dies inside ghost in the fire and smoke jon will be reborn into his body in the salt. oathkeeper will then turn into the flaming sword because of the sacrifice made of ghost such as Azor Ahai did to his wife. jon will

claim

the sword and melisandre will see the prophecy fullfilled.

the queensmen being religous and devoted to their red god will also believe he is azor ahai and stannis was a misinterpretation once melisandre tells them. they will swear their swords to jon and jon will get rid of the black brothers who tried to assasinate him.

the wights and white walkers will then attack and bring down the wall somehow, many will die and the rest will flee south with jon snow leading them.

feel free to comment

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I have always thought that Briennes last word was "Stannis!". This is because Lady Catelyn promised that when the time came, she would release Brienne from her service to pursue Stannis. Thoughts?

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But why wouldn't Catelyn simply demand Brienne bring her Jaime's head rather bringing him back for another mock trial with the Brotherhood without Banners, if all Catelyn wants is Jaime dead?

I submit that its not all Catelyn wants. She wants more:

1) She wants revenge upon all who betrayed and murdered her family.

To that end:

2) Among others, Catelyn wants vengeance on Cersei. No doubt Catelyn would want an answer to why Jaime pushed Bran out the window. But even under torture and threat of death Jaime would never confess to anyone about his incest with Cersei in order to protect their children. Even threatening to kill Brienne wouldn't do it. Jaime knows Brienne lives by the knight's code.

The only way Jaime would confess to it is through subterfuge of some kind. But for argument's sake, lets say Catelyn gets Jaime to confess to incest infront of Edmure and/or the Blackfish, possibly a captured Frey or another House. That could in effect end Tommen's reign and possibly his life, and throw the Seven Kingdom's into even more chaos with even more houses rebelling and Cersei forced to cede control of the Kingdom to Marjorie so the Tyrell's will protect herself and Tommen.

That might satisfy Catelyn--a bit.

3) At some point, probably by Jaime and Brienne, Catelyn will be reminded that she still has two living children and has a choice to make between their safety and her desire for vengeance. The only chance she has of either reclaiming her daughters or finding a safe place for them is by sending Brienne and Jaime to get them or the Blackfish. Possibly Brienne takes Sansa back to Tarth or with the Blackfish to Riverrun. Or at least that would be the plan.

Edited by TheReal_Rebel

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Among others, Catelyn wants vengeance on Cersei. No doubt Catelyn would want an answer to why Jaime pushed Bran out the window. But even under torture and threat of death Jaime would never confess to anyone about his incest with Cersei in order to protect their children. Even threatening to kill Brienne wouldn't do it. Jaime knows Brienne lives by the knight's code.

Actually Jamie already confessed to his incest with Cersi in river run's dungeon when catelyn let jamie go.

The only way Jaime would confess to it is through subterfuge of some kind. But for argument's sake, lets say Catelyn gets Jaime to confess to incest infront of Edmure and/or the Blackfish, possibly a captured Frey or another House. That could in effect end Tommen's reign and possibly his life, and throw the Seven Kingdom's into even more chaos with even more houses rebelling and Cersei forced to cede control of the Kingdom to Marjorie so the Tyrell's will protect herself and Tommen.

Edmure is captive at twins and even if blackfish is there how can he go to KL and say that to tyrells.

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Jaime and Brienne will end up in the Vale to fight Ser Robert Strong along with the Hound. Jaime and Sandor die, leaving Brienne to be the protector of the Stark girls(once Arya makes her way back across the sea, that is.)

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Jaime and Brienne will end up in the Vale to fight Ser Robert Strong along with the Hound. Jaime and Sandor die, leaving Brienne to be the protector of the Stark girls(once Arya makes her way back across the sea, that is.)

Robert strong is in KL not vale :P.

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Actually Jamie already confessed to his incest with Cersi in river run's dungeon when catelyn let jamie go.

Edmure is captive at twins and even if blackfish is there how can he go to KL and say that to tyrells.

I had forgotten.

But what I really I meant was a written confession signed by Jaime and attested to by other Houses and sent to all the great houses .

I didn't say the Blackfish would go himself to the Tyrells. My example of using the Blackfish or Edmure was merely as witnesses and members of her house who would give LS authority. At this point I don't know how likely it is any of LS's family will ever see her again.

Was only posing a hypothetical that Lady Stoneheart would want to find a way to strike at Cersei using whatever she could.

I think maybe Undead Cat will be sending Jaime and Brienne up North to find and rescue Bran perhaps she has heard news of Bran and Rickon's survival? The man who crippled Bran at the beginning will be the one to save him at the end. I don't think Jaime's role is finished yet, He still has to make it back to Kings Landing to kill Cersei.

I think it unlikely Jaime and Brienne will be meeting Bran. He is becoming a GreenSeer and only Sam and Gilly have seen him and were sworn to tell no one.

Its also unlikely they might meet Rickon. Rickon is with Osha on Skagos, if Wex is to be believed. They are now being sought by Davos there.

No, I think it's fairly clear that the fate of Jaime and Brienne are somehow tied to Sansa and possibly Arya.

BTW, how likely is it that Arya is one of the Faceless children who kill Kevin Lannister?

Edited by TheReal_Rebel

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Guys, the scream was "sword" a question asked in the recent interviews confirmed it :-) unless Martin is trolling in public now.

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BTW, how likely is it that Arya is one of the Faceless children who kill Kevin Lannister?

That is highly unlikely because in the first book when arya overhears illirio and varys talking, varys tells him that all his sparrows are mute so if arya is a sparrow she would have her tongue ripped out.

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That is highly unlikely because in the first book when arya overhears illirio and varys talking, varys tells him that all his sparrows are mute so if arya is a sparrow she would have her tongue ripped out.

Mute can mean the inability to speak or merely refraining from speaking--which is part of Arya's training as a Faceless person.

Though re-reading the passage makes me think Varys would more likely use his sparrows then send for a bunch of Faceless children.

Guys, the scream was "sword" a question asked in the recent interviews confirmed it :-) unless Martin is trolling in public now.

"Sword" is so true to Brienne's character and makes her re-appearance in ADwD that so much more filled with potential conflict. George, Hurry up!

Edited by TheReal_Rebel

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Mute can mean the inability to speak or merely refraining from speaking--which is part of Arya's training as a Faceless person.

"Sword" is so true to Brienne's character and makes her re-appearance in ADwD that so much more filled with potential conflict. George, Hurry up!

Your technically correct about the meaning of the word mute, however that doesn't make it any more likely that Arya was one the children that stabbed kevin. It's an interesting thought but heres why I find it unlikely. We know dance ends later than feast, but Arya's last chapter in dance is only 7 from the end, and since most of what is happening in the last chapters most likely overlapped there's really not a whole lot of time for her to get the long distance to Kings Landing. Also it seems somewhat unlikely that the faceless men would send a trainee back to a city where she is very likely to remember she is someone. Most importantly i feel is that would mean we don't get to see her retrieve needle and see Jeyne Poole and Justin Massey, which i think is a plot element meant to link Arya up with other characters.

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