Jump to content

Brandon Stark wasn't so bad


Greatjon_umber

Recommended Posts

Actually there is plenty (not for forcing, but for relationship with AD), but you need to read carefully, and think about the sources. See below.

0. Note that there is nothing about Ned falling in love at Harrenhal. The readers, not the text, made that assumption based on other rumours, from two years after Harrenhal. We translated those rumours back to Harrenhal, but there is nothing textual to do so, and logically those rumours come from Jon's appearance and Ashara's suicide, not events at Harrenhal.

4. The 'talk' of Ashara and Ned happens much later, years later. It is common gossip showing up in at least three different places around Westeros. But the foundation is easily deduced, and unrelated to Harrenhal. Lord Eddard Stark, great noble of the realm, close friend of the new King Robert Baratheon, famed for honesty, honour and probity, took a bastard boy away from Starfall (and treats him as his own, showing great favour for a bastard) and Ashara Dayne committed suicide - of course everyone thinks Ned and Ashara had a thing. And it fooled most of us for a long time too, using the later rumours and gossip as a foundation for the earlier Harrenhal story to become a romance.

I've lumped these two together as you are basically making the same point twice. I agree that the later rumours of Ned and Ashara are probably due to Ned bringing Jon away from Starfell and, given R+L=J, should be discounted. But lack of evidence for a Ned & Ashara relationship does not constitute evidence of a Brandon & Ashara relationship. There is the KotLT story however, and not just that the young pup had an interest in the maid with the dancing eyes; Meera is telling Bran this story for a reason and is suprised Bran does not know of it - so she understands their to be a significance in Ned wanting to dance with Ashara.

1. Note that Ned is the 'shy wolf' and Brandon, the more eligible older brother who is better looking, taller, a better swordsman and stands to inherit a great lordship who is the 'wild wolf'.

- ask yourself who is a teenage girl or young woman more likely to fall for?

2. Note that Ned and Brandon both have about the same contact with Ashara at Harrenhal. Ned gets a dance, but Ashara does Brandon's asking. Brandon is the one who actually speaks to her, and she does what Brandon asks.

- this could be big brother breaking ice, or it could be big brother hanging out with the hot chick and showing what a great guy he is by including shy little brother.

- again, ask yourself who is in the front running to get laid tonight - even if it is big brother breaking the ice...

3. Look at the 'crowd' that Ashara is hanging out with. We have Oberyn Martell, Griff Connington, a KG (most likely Dayne) and Brandon Stark. All around 20ish or more (Oberyn the prodigy is a bit younger, but has already fought and killed a man over a woman), and men of great standing - Oberyn is practically heir to the heir at Dhorne, since Doran has not yet had sons and Arianne is still only a child, Griff is a Lord and friend to the crown prince, Dayne is a KG, Brandon is a great house heir. She's clearly popular, flirtacious (not in a bad way) and got the attention of the very cream of young men around. Ned, OTOH, is painfully shy, a nobody second son from the far north with no great deeds, title or position to his name.

- ask yourself, who is the young woman most likely to dally with?

6. Barristan also muses to himself that in his experience (which we know includes Dany and Ashara) young girls always choose 'fiery' (passionate/exciting, burn out fast, consume rather than nurture) men over solid 'mud' (good for growth, nurturing, fertile, but boring) men. Clearly he believes Ashara 'chose' a fire man.

- ask yourself which category Ned would fall under, and which category Brandon

These four points all draw a comparison between Ned and Brandon and ask us which man we would conclude Ashara would go with. My conclusion is that we don't know Ashara well (she's not a generic 'young woman' but an actual character who may have her own preferences) and you are not offering any actual evidence of a link between Brandon and Ashara.

5. Barristan tells us Ashara was dishonoured at Harrenhal (and later had a stillborn baby girl). He also tells us he loved Ashara, which means he would have been paying close attention to her and what happened to her. He was also present at Harrenhal. He also says she 'looked to (a) Stark' - though whether that was before or after her dishonour is not clear. It may have been the cause of her dishonour, or the result. Elswhere, Barristan shows he has respect for Ned Stark, defending him to Dany. Strange that, if Ned is the man Ashara looked to yet thinks if she had looked to him (Barristan) instead things could have been different (even stranger if Ned was the actual cause of the dishonour - clearly to Barristan's knowledge Ashara was romancing with someone other than Ned unless there was a covered up rape by a third party).

7. Brandon has history with sleeping with at least one young unwed noblewoman. And descriptive statements such as 'took what he wanted' and 'liked a bloody sword' said about him. Ned on the other hand is almost painfully honourable and as Ned said, 'was never the boy he was' (translation = was bron with a stick up his ass and didn't have a wild youth sowing his oats - note also that Wylla is, in Robert's opinion, Ned's "that one time" - so Robert, who was Ned's best friends, clearly has never even suspected Ned of having anything with Ashara Dayne).

- ask yourself which one of the brothers you see as more likely to sleep with a young noblewoman at all

- then remind yourself that Brandon would have to dump her afterward (he's engaged already in a political match) and Ned is basically free of entanglements yet apparently appears to have dumped her anyway???

6. We really don't know for certain what Barristan knows and how. The snippet of thought we get is not even enough for us to confirm that Ashara did have a pregnancy and stillbirth. Does he actually know it because he was actually in the room at some point, or did he overhear a snippet of conversation and conclude (perhaps wrongly) that Ashara had a stillbirth - I've no idea and neither do you. We can take the 'dishonoured her at Harrenhal' to suggest that the timing of the pregnancy suggested a Harrenhal conception but unless he witnessed Ashara and 'Stark' actually having intercourse he has to be drawing conclusions from imcomplete information. What's he going on then, a dance? a conversation? It's not proof that either man actually fathered a child on her.

7. Even if we take as gospel that Ashara had a bastard there are plenty of other men more likely than Ned to sleep with a maiden. We still lack proof that it was Brandon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We still lack proof that it was Brandon.

Is there any point in this post?

I made it clear that there was no proof and things were still up for discussion.

But someone wanted to know why Brandon was even being considered. Hence the emphasis on Brandon in the response.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any point in this post?

I made it clear that there was no proof and things were still up for discussion.

But someone wanted to know why Brandon was even being considered. Hence the emphasis on Brandon in the response.

Ah, I misunderstood and thought you were arguing that this was strong proof.

Nevertheless, my post still had purpose; you gave long list of reasons why Brandon should be thought to have had an affair with Ashara and I wanted to refute those reasons. It boiled down to quite a short list:- that it wouldn't have been out of character for Brandon (true) and that Barristans thoughts indicated something happened with a Stark (but we don't get enough of his memories to draw conclusions).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I certainly see Brandon as a tragic figure, what bothers me about him is what he did to Ashara Dayne and Littlefinger. Even if their sex was consensual, he still wasalready betrothed to Catelyn, and humiliating Baelish was wrong, no matter what a little piece of shit he is now.
I think our picture of Brandon is changing. At first it was just that he was hot empered. He had the wolf blood. Now after ADWD what with Lady Dustin and Ashara he comes across as your typical westerosi nobleman, arrogant and entitled, rather than just a more quick tempered version of The Ned.

What exactly went on between Brandon and Ashara? All we know is that he asked her to dance with Ned. We do think we know that he was involved with Lady Dustin before he was betrothed, but that ended almost immediatly after he found out about the betrothal to Cat. Other than that anything else suggested about Brandon and his sexual exploits, is just conjecture and trying to add something to the story that is not really there.

I don't understand why there is any reason to dislike Brandon. We really don't know much about him. He didn't kill LF because Cat asked B to spare him, and he rode to KL to uphold his family's honor. While not the most rational idea given the circumstances, mad king and all, it is not surprising that a Stark would take exception to this slap against their honor. Other than these two things, we know he died trying to save his father from boiling his own armor. From Lady Dustin's story, we get the impression that she had a relationship with Brandon, but at this point we cannot fully evaluate whether this is true or not. We don't know enough about her, outside of she really wanted Theon/Reek to show her the Stark Crypts for some reason, to make an accurate determination about whether she is reliable in her story.

Brandon is just one of the many interesting characters that died during or around the time fo the rebellion that we have a very limited amount of information about, but I really don't see that there is any reason to dislike him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brandon taking what he wanted doesn't mean rape.

It means he was fine with going after what he wanted.

Noblewomen, it likely means he was bold about his desire, and as bannermen to the Starks, Lady Dustin would likely be alright with this anyways, and the fact that he was a handsome bad boy only cemented it.

Nowhere do i get the vibe that Brandon was a rapist.

The Ashara Dayne thing i sincerely hope is false, and its actually Eddard just to give him a life before Catelyn.

Why not?

Ashara and Ned get on together, she concieves but loses it, Rhaegar takes Lyanna, and the rest is history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OMG... people are incredible. Now Brandon Stark is the rapist... Is there any male character in the series, who is neither virgin nor rapist?

Oh Sam Tarly maybe... But I'm sure Gilly is a rapist anyways... Give a rest to this rapist thing, people...

Lady Dustin was not raped by Brandon, she had an AFFAIR with him. Brandon never raped anybody, he was just not Jon-Oh no what if I get her pregnant and give the world another bastard- Snow. Brandon did what he wanted, lived for today and died very soon. Like Mercutio and Romeo. What's wrong with that? If Lady Dustin let Brandon have what he wanted that was her decision, you can't blame Brandon for taking what was offered. By the way, she never mentioned or hinted at rape. She was in bloody love with Brandon...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OMG... people are incredible. Now Brandon Stark is the rapist... Is there any male character in the series, who is neither virgin nor rapist?

Oh Sam Tarly maybe... But I'm sure Gilly is a rapist anyways... Give a rest to this rapist thing, people...

No one has claimed he did. :rolleyes:

And yes, I went back and checked every post in the thread. A couple allude to the opinion that he might not have been averse to rape if things hadn't already been consensual, but no one has actually suggested he was involved in a rape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:blush:

No one has claimed he did. :rolleyes:

And yes, I went back and checked every post in the thread. A couple allude to the opinion that he might not have been averse to rape if things hadn't already been consensual, but no one has actually suggested he was involved in a rape.

Claim is when I say Joffrey had golden hair.

Opinion is when one hints at Brandon might having raped Lady Dustin.

Opinion also is when I say that's a stupid opinion.

:blush:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

he was short tempered and not like ned. but brandon is more brave and handsome than his brother. i think robert made him to make his move to kings landing. robert shuld have gone himself and shuld not send rickard and brandon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Opinion also is when I say that's a stupid opinion.

I won't argue with that, though I might point out that even those alluding to that didn't actually claim they thought it true.

"what bothers me about him is what he did to Ashara Dayne and Littlefinger. Even if their sex was consensual, he still was already betrothed to Catelyn"

- does not actually suggest that it wasn't consensual, merely points out that even if it was all good for her, it was still douchey on his part (though note that this liason is not actually confirmed yet, he's just one of several chief suspects).

"What I find more disturbing is the account of lady Dustin, the one about the "bloodied sword" when referring to the blood of her maidenhead, and the hint she makes that he would have gone ahead even if she hadn't consented (I haven't read the chapter in awhile, so I hope I'm not mixing this up with something)."

- again, does not suggest that the poster believes in rape, merely points to a hint by Lady Dustin that he might be the type. "Likes a bloody sword" and 'takes what he wants" are direct references (paraphrased for not bothering to look them up) that come to mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love Brandon. I think some people are used to that stiff Ned Stark so it's weird when a man actually likes sex and is a player. I see no crimes here.

Yeah he was dumb for calling Rhaegar to die but stupidity appears to be common among the Starks to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Come out and die" is treason, plain and simple, and while (obviously) it could have been better handled, Aerys was legally justified in having him killed (Lord Rickard is another matter).

Areys had the authority and power to have Brandon executed QED. IMO Areys did not have the justification to have Brandon killed absent a trial. A trial with execution to follow could have mollified Rickard and the other high lords and prevented a rebellion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose I have a bit more of a neutral opinion about him, or at least a bit torn, since my views on him change every split second. As said prior, we still don't know much about him - we just have small puzzle pieces, not enough to actually put together a complete picture.

He wasn't a bad guy. But he also wasn't a great guy.

The whole "Come out and Die" part was a mess up on both Brandon and Aerys' ends. Brandon charging up practically solo, claiming bluntly to kill the prince, was not bright. Yet Aerys not honouring the offer of a duel and then killing everyone was also not bright. And of course, Rhaegar, the one who allegedly helped start the whole thing in the first place, was not bright...

Overall, not a lot of lightbulbs were on during this time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Come out and die" is treason, plain and simple, and while (obviously) it could have been better handled, Aerys was legally justified in having him killed (Lord Rickard is another matter).

Once kings start kidnapping, it's time to say screw the rules and act. And that's what Brandon did, and his death brought about the almost total ruin of the Targs. So here's to Brandon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once kings start kidnapping, it's time to say screw the rules and act. And that's what Brandon did, and his death brought about the almost total ruin of the Targs. So here's to Brandon.

First you need to confirm there has actually been a kidnap.

Then you try due process.

If that fails, then acting is fair enough.

What you don't do is go straight to 'acting' by direct treason without even referencing the alleged kidnap.

And since it got 60% of Brandon's family, and thousands of other people as well, killed, here's not to dumbass morons who ride roughshod over anyone and everyone whenever they feel like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off i'm just gonna say Brandon Stark is one of my favorite characters, i like alot of the charcters that we don't really get to know like Arthur Dayne.

Anyway regarding him going to King's Landing i've read people not just in this thread that assume that he only called for Rhaegar to "come out and die" because thats what Jaime relays to Cat, and that it proves he wasn't really trying to save Lyanna and knew she went with Rhaegar willingly. My problem is can we really assume thats all he said it's not as if Jaime is a court stenographer and has a transcript.

In closing i think Brandon was maybe the most badass character in the whole story, save maybe Barristan, as he walks into the Mad King's castle to save his sister with only a few homies for back up.

P.S. Lord Rickard also huge badass as he demanded a trial by combat probably thinking he would have to fight Barristan or the Sword of the Morning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyway regarding him going to King's Landing i've read people not just in this thread that assume that he only called for Rhaegar to "come out and die" because thats what Jaime relays to Cat, and that it proves he wasn't really trying to save Lyanna and knew she went with Rhaegar willingly. My problem is can we really assume thats all he said it's not as if Jaime is a court stenographer and has a transcript.

You have it the wrong way round. Its not 'proof'. Its just that based on what we are given, there is a total lack of evidence that he was trying to save Lyanna. With no evidence, that is not a fair asumption to make. Some people give him a pass for this really stupid and reckless thing he did, based on their supposition of the reason, despite no hint of that reason in any of the data we are given.

Yes, he might have been motivated by protecting Lyanna. But you can't give him a pass on his behaviour based on a "might have been" with a clear lack of evidence for it - and its not like this is a vacuum of evidence either (such as a potential letter of explanation from Lyanna, where there is a total vacuum of evidence). We have some evidence, and there is no hint of family protection in it.

In summary, we don't necessarily assume it is all he said. But equally we can't assume he said more. The presentation by Jaime is clearly not of a 'due process' even if Brandon did say more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And since it got 60% of Brandon's family, and thousands of other people as well, killed, here's not to dumbass morons who ride roughshod over anyone and everyone whenever they feel like it.

Agreed! That's why I don't especially care for Rhaegar, and would've been rooting for Brandon to kick his ass.

(Not that Rhaegar was unintelligent, I know he was practically a genius. That doesn't mean he wasn't a dumbass.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...