Brandon Stark wasn't so bad

[Independent George]

While I certainly see Brandon as a tragic figure, what bothers me about him is what he did to Ashara Dayne and Littlefinger. Even if their sex was consensual, he still wasalready betrothed to Catelyn, and humiliating Baelish was wrong, no matter what a little piece of shit he is now.

I agree about Ashara, but he deliberately held back against Littlefinger at Catelyn's request. He spared him. Are you really saying Brandon should have just cut him in half in order to salvage his honor?

[LadyMary]

I like Brandon, from his point of view Rhaegar publicly embarrassed his sister by choosing her over his wife at the tourney, then kidnapped her. He then marched into the dragon's den so to speak to get her back, knowing full well that the King was insane. He sounds like a more badass Ned, and clearly had the Stark bane of dangerously high honour.

Yeah, the Starks had a legitimate grievance against Rhaegar but the way Brandon handled it was more stupid than badass. You don't go into the dragons' lair and threaten the dragons, especially when the head dragon is a paranoid sadist and you're outnumbered. If Brandon had succeeded in fighting/killing Rhaegar or even succeeded in getting his sister back through his posturing, then I would agree it was badass. That's not what happened. Brandon's posturing got him and his father and 200 of their friends killed. Eddard was the truely badass Stark in that situation because he managed to find a way out of the Vale while it was surrounded by hostile forces, rally his banners, get married and cement an important alliance, and then lead Robert's van all the way to Kings Landing.

As for Brandon, we just don't know that much about him. Multiple accounts recall him being brash and swashbuckling and popular with the ladies. He was called the "Wild Wolf". His actions betray an impetuous nature. But that's the stuff of legends. He may have had a more thoughtful and careful side when he could deal with crises proactively instead of reacting impetuously. He never got the chance. Those who remember him remember the larger-than-life personality.

I don't think Brandon was a bad person necessarily, just a flawed one...like every other character in this series.

Lummel:

Now after ADWD what with Lady Dustin and Ashara he comes across as your typical westerosi nobleman, arrogant and entitled, rather than just a more quick tempered version of The Ned.

We don't know that Brandon did anything to Ashara. That's fan speculation based on Barbrey Dustin's biased comments about Brandon's character (and Ned's), and a belief that Ned would never dishonor someone.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I don't mind Brandon at all, but what he did was a pretty big mistake.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yeah, the Starks had a legitimate grievance against Rhaegar but the way Brandon handled it was more stupid than badass. You don't go into the dragons' lair and threaten the dragons, especially when the head dragon is a paranoid sadist and you're outnumbered. If Brandon had succeeded in fighting/killing Rhaegar or even succeeded in getting his sister back through his posturing, then I would agree it was badass. That's not what happened. Brandon's posturing got him and his father and 200 of their friends killed. Eddard was the truely badass Stark in that situation because he managed to find a way out of the Vale while it was surrounded by hostile forces, rally his banners, get married and cement an important alliance, and then lead Robert's van all the way to Kings Landing.

As for Brandon, we just don't know that much about him. Multiple accounts recall him being brash and swashbuckling and popular with the ladies. He was called the "Wild Wolf". His actions betray an impetuous nature. But that's the stuff of legends. He may have had a more thoughtful and careful side when he could deal with crises proactively instead of reacting impetuously. He never got the chance. Those who remember him remember the larger-than-life personality.

I don't think Brandon was a bad person necessarily, just a flawed one...like every other character in this series.

Lummel:

We don't know that Brandon did anything to Ashara. That's fan speculation based on Barbrey Dustin's biased comments about Brandon's character (and Ned's), and a belief that Ned would never dishonor someone.

It's based more on Barristan than Lady Dustin, to be honest (although Barbrey surely plays a part in our perception of Brandon and in some way confirms what Barristan thinks)

[Jaehaerys Sand]

It isn't just that they see Rhaegar as a tragic figure.

According to some of the R + L = J theories, either Rhaegar or Lyanna left a note for Brandon and his father explaining what happened, making it clear it wasn't a kidnapping. But Brandon and Rickard ignored what it said and rushed to King's Landing without explaining to anyone else what really happened. That misunderstanding caused Robert's Rebellion.

[Sera dy Relandrant]

We don't even know if he did anything to Ashara *le sigh*. And Littlefinger did ask for it.

[Lummel]

We don't know that Brandon did anything to Ashara. That's fan speculation based on Barbrey Dustin's biased comments about Brandon's character (and Ned's), and a belief that Ned would never dishonor someone.

No that's based on Barristan's POV and what Barristan has previously said about The Ned. Lady Dustin just adds to the picture.

But yes agreed Brandon emerges as a flawed personality which is par or the course for ASOIAF :) .

[Longspear Ryk]

Lol... First of all no one knows if anything happened between him and ashara...

Dustin kinda seems lime a crazy bitch so i cant realllu take her word for much...

Littlefinger was definitly asking for it..brandon tried but he was to stubborn.. And if he shoulda been mad at anyone it should of been cat

I think him going to kings landing was the only choice they had to keep the families honor... And him and rickard didnt go alone either... Im sure any otber king would have had them on trial or even heard them out but aerys was a nut

I think the only reason he gets so much hate is because some people loveeee rhaegar

[Ygrain]

I could understand the rage over his sister's abduction/eloping, I could understand shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die... but I don't understand NOT checking at first if Rhaegar was home at all. That's not even plain stupid, that's tragicomic. - Still, he didn't deserve the end he got for that.

What I find more disturbing is the account of lady Dustin, the one about the "bloodied sword" when referring to the blood of her maidenhead, and the hint she makes that he would have gone ahead even if she hadn't consented (I haven't read the chapter in awhile, so I hope I'm not mixing this up with something). I think this is the basis why people think, myself included, that it was him who dishonoured Ashara (now, Ned was too shy to ask her for a dance, but became suddenly bold enough to have sex?), in which case, it was totally nasty of him to bang the girl his brother was interested in.

It doesn't make Brandon the worst person ever but not really the most likeable, either - and it has absolutely nothing to do with Rhaegar.

[FuzzyJAM]

People love to jump to conclusions. We know very little about Brandon beyond rumour, so I reserve judgement. Maybe he was stupid, maybe he wasn't. Maybe he mistreated women, maybe he didn't.

The one thing we do apparently know a lot about - the duel with Littlefinger - has him acting incredibly mercifully to a guy whom he has a legitimate and large grievance against.

[the trees have eyes]

Brandon was headstrong, sure, but there is nothing to suggest he would have forced himself on Barbrey Ryswell and nothing to suggest a relationship with Ashara Dayne.

Barbrey Dustin tells Theon that her father would have offered her maidenhead to Brandon as a means of currying favour with the Starks (to increase the chances of a marriage as that seemed where things were heading) but that Brandon wasn't shy about taking what he wanted. I don't read anything into this that suggests his relationship with Barbrey wasn't entriely consensual.

It's Ned who appears to falls in love with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal. All Brandon does is ask her to dance with Ned as Ned is too shy to ask her. I see an elder brother breaking the ice for a younger brother, nothing more. When Arya is troubled by Edric Dayne's revelations and of her father dishonouring her mother with Ashara Harwin tells her that it was Spring and neither Ned nor Ashara was promised so they were free to court.

Also, he spares LF and calls on him to yield once he is injured but LF refuses. For honour's sake Brandon cannot refuse the duel - either his own or Catelyn's - but he takes half his armour off and gives LF quarter when he has no need to. I don't see how he is in the wrong here.

Brandon had more than a touch of the wolf blood so he rode off to KL to confront Rhaegar. This was not smart but I see GRRM giving us back story and a hastily- and thinly-traced character whose role is a small tragic part in the story. Brandon is a tragic character and an off-stage casualty before the story starts, no more deeply drawn than that. Hard to dislike imo when there is so little to base an opinion on.

[Ygrain]

"Brandon wasn't shy about taking what he wanted"

Yeah, that's the sentence that I find so disturbing. It's not about Barbrey not being willing, but about Brandon not particularly caring. Not going as far as using force, but taking advantage of a situation, maybe? Making a move to get under a girl's skirts, without considering the consequences for her, and it didn't turn out a rape only because Barbrey happened to be willing. That's how I read it.

[FuzzyJAM]

"Brandon wasn't shy about taking what he wanted"

Yeah, that's the sentence that I find so disturbing. It's not about Barbrey not being willing, but about Brandon not particularly caring. Not going as far as using force, but taking advantage of a situation, maybe? Making a move to get under a girl's skirts, without considering the consequences for her, and it didn't turn out a rape only because Barbrey happened to be willing. That's how I read it.

You're reading a lot more into it than I would.

Maybe that's the intention of what she is saying, but it's by no means clear.

[LordBloodraven]

I think most of those who dislike Bran are the one that lauds Rhaegar's attitude. At the end, Rhaegar started a war and didn't bother to restrain his mad father. In ADWD, we see him again through Barbrey Dustin's view; she seems to have loved him and him, maybe in return. His life was too short for any meaningful deed, except being a victim of Aerys

[Gurkhal]

It isn't just that they see Rhaegar as a tragic figure.

According to some of the R + L = J theories, either Rhaegar or Lyanna left a note for Brandon and his father explaining what happened, making it clear it wasn't a kidnapping. But Brandon and Rickard ignored what it said and rushed to King's Landing without explaining to anyone else what really happened. That misunderstanding caused Robert's Rebellion.

I must say that this sounds an aweful lot like baseless conjecture. What's the supposed basis for this "note"? Also what is the basis to make anyone didn't force Lyanna to write it and that anyone would believe it to be true?

I think most of those who dislike Bran are the one that lauds Rhaegar's attitude. At the end, Rhaegar started a war and didn't bother to restrain his mad father. In ADWD, we see him again through Barbrey Dustin's view; she seems to have loved him and him, maybe in return. His life was too short for any meaningful deed, except being a victim of Aerys

Brandon didn't love Barbrey enough to attempt to marry with her after scoring so that love was rather physical from Brandon's point I would think.

Secondly Rhaegar did not in any way start a war but Aerys provoked three Great Houses against him after having alienated a fourth one. Unlike everyone else it is implied that Rhaegar would see to his father after the rebels were dealt with.

[Ser Areo Mace]

Brandon seems like what you got when you take the best from Robert and the best from Ned and put them into one person.

[IronSuitor]

Brandon strikes me as what Ned would have been if he had been raised as the first son and heir. That highly attuned sense of honor can just as easily become arrogance and entitlement if you've been fed "Winterfell is yours by right" since birth. Ned saw power and relationships as duties he owed to others, Brandon seems to have seen what others owed to him.

[Catastrophe]

I never knew people disliked Brandon so much, I'm actually quite surprised. He was hot-tempered, but other than that we know very little about him. Seems strange anyone would have such strong opinions on someone we know almost nothing about.

I thought it was messed up how close he came to killing Littlefinger- who was just a naive and overly romantic teenage boy at the time- but I can't even hold that against him too much. Littlefinger did challenge him, after all. As for demanding a duel with Rhaegar, I don't see anything wrong with that. Dueling is a tradition in Westeros, and if he and Rhaegar had simply crossed swords, they could've resolved their conflict without getting millions of people killed. It was the Mad King's completely unwarranted response to Brandon's challenge that caused the war, but you can hardly hold Brandon responsible for that.

I'm also a little tired of people treating Rhaegar as if he was some kind of great hero. Again, we know very little about Rhaegar, and what we do know isn't very positive. If he actually kidnapped Lyanna then I have no sympathy for him whatsoever, no matter how noble he seemed. If Lyanna came with him willingly, then he was simply a well-intentioned but very deluded fool who was completely out of touch with reality. If he and Brandon had fought their duel, I'd have been rooting for Brandon all the way.

Also, why do so many people seem to think that Brandon had an affair with Ashara? I've never been under that impression, and it doesn't seem especially likely to me.

[Warhammer]

Whether he kidnapped, or was simply a married man perving my sister I would fully expect him to come out and die.

About the other ladies, doesn't LF do the same thing to Lysa and no one cares?

I think he was too nice to Littlefinger. If someone is openly trying to steal my future wife, I would have personally gelded him. If he lived I would send him to the Dreadfort for the rest of his sentence.

[corbon]

I never knew people disliked Brandon so much, I'm actually quite surprised. He was hot-tempered, but other than that we know very little about him. Seems strange anyone would have such strong opinions on someone we know almost nothing about.

Actually we are given quite a lot of information. Its veracity is not always certain (there is great disagreement over some of it) and the interpretation of some of it also open (one particular point really), but there is quite a bit there.

1. Brandon is wild - the wild wolf

2. Brandon is prone to ignoring consequences

a. "he took what he wanted" or something similar from Lady Dustin

b. the whole commanding the crown prince to come out and die

3. He was tall, handsome and a better swordsman than Ned

4. He was beaten (unhorsed) by Rhaegar in the tourney at Harrenhal

5. He 'liked a bloody sword' (possible reference to deflowering virgins) from Lady Dustin

6. He was quite happy to sleep with an unmarried virgin noblewoman.

7. 'Everything was always for Brandon" thought with, IIRC, an air of resentment by Ned - which seems to indicate both entitlement and a disregard for others (backed up by actually being entitled and his known actions.

8. According to an eyewitness (or at least, someone who was there, Jaime) he neither issued a challenge to Rhaegar to duel, nor mentioned Lyanna at all. He just demanded that the crown prince of the realm "come out and die". That may have been a challenge - if so it perhaps should have been "I challenge you" or "come out and fight" with some mention of the reason. As it is, by Jaimes words, it wasa stupid act.

It was the Mad King's completely unwarranted response to Brandon's challenge that caused the war, but you can hardly hold Brandon responsible for that.

That is assuming it was a challenge at all.

Brandon's words, as reported by Jaime at least, constitute treason. You simply can't just command the crown prince come out and die without any sort of due process or reference to dirty deeds or anything. You can hold Brandon responsible for that - not for challenging Rhaegar, but for how he went about it.

I'm also a little tired of people treating Rhaegar as if he was some kind of great hero. Again, we know very little about Rhaegar, and what we do know isn't very positive. If he actually kidnapped Lyanna then I have no sympathy for him whatsoever, no matter how noble he seemed. If Lyanna came with him willingly, then he was simply a well-intentioned but very deluded fool who was completely out of touch with reality. If he and Brandon had fought their duel, I'd have been rooting for Brandon all the way.

Actually everything we hear about Rhaegar from anyone who actually had anything to do with him is extremely positive. He is actually presented to us, by everyone except Robert-the-moron-who-hates-his-guts (and Bran the child who is just parroting Robert's official history as he has been taught) as pretty much a great hero with a melancholy edge.

Also, why do so many people seem to think that Brandon had an affair with Ashara? I've never been under that impression, and it doesn't seem especially likely to me.

See below.

Brandon was headstrong, sure, but there is nothing to suggest he would have forced himself on Barbrey Ryswell and nothing to suggest a relationship with Ashara Dayne.

Actually there is plenty (not for forcing, but for relationship with AD), but you need to read carefully, and think about the sources. See below.

It's Ned who appears to falls in love with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal. All Brandon does is ask her to dance with Ned as Ned is too shy to ask her. I see an elder brother breaking the ice for a younger brother, nothing more. When Arya is troubled by Edric Dayne's revelations and of her father dishonouring her mother with Ashara Harwin tells her that it was Spring and neither Ned nor Ashara was promised so they were free to court.

... Hard to dislike imo when there is so little to base an opinion on.

0. Note that there is nothing about Ned falling in love at Harrenhal. The readers, not the text, made that assumption based on other rumours, from two years after Harrenhal. We translated those rumours back to Harrenhal, but there is nothing textual to do so, and logically those rumours come from Jon's appearance and Ashara's suicide, not events at Harrenhal.

1. Note that Ned is the 'shy wolf' and Brandon, the more eligible older brother who is better looking, taller, a better swordsman and stands to inherit a great lordship who is the 'wild wolf'.

- ask yourself who is a teenage girl or young woman more likely to fall for?

2. Note that Ned and Brandon both have about the same contact with Ashara at Harrenhal. Ned gets a dance, but Ashara does Brandon's asking. Brandon is the one who actually speaks to her, and she does what Brandon asks.

- this could be big brother breaking ice, or it could be big brother hanging out with the hot chick and showing what a great guy he is by including shy little brother.

- again, ask yourself who is in the front running to get laid tonight - even if it is big brother breaking the ice...

3. Look at the 'crowd' that Ashara is hanging out with. We have Oberyn Martell, Griff Connington, a KG (most likely Dayne) and Brandon Stark. All around 20ish or more (Oberyn the prodigy is a bit younger, but has already fought and killed a man over a woman), and men of great standing - Oberyn is practically heir to the heir at Dhorne, since Doran has not yet had sons and Arianne is still only a child, Griff is a Lord and friend to the crown prince, Dayne is a KG, Brandon is a great house heir. She's clearly popular, flirtacious (not in a bad way) and got the attention of the very cream of young men around. Ned, OTOH, is painfully shy, a nobody second son from the far north with no great deeds, title or position to his name.

- ask yourself, who is the young woman most likely to dally with?

4. The 'talk' of Ashara and Ned happens much later, years later. It is common gossip showing up in at least three different places around Westeros. But the foundation is easily deduced, and unrelated to Harrenhal. Lord Eddard Stark, great noble of the realm, close friend of the new King Robert Baratheon, famed for honesty, honour and probity, took a bastard boy away from Starfall (and treats him as his own, showing great favour for a bastard) and Ashara Dayne committed suicide - of course everyone thinks Ned and Ashara had a thing. And it fooled most of us for a long time too, using the later rumours and gossip as a foundation for the earlier Harrenhal story to become a romance.

5. Barristan tells us Ashara was dishonoured at Harrenhal (and later had a stillborn baby girl). He also tells us he loved Ashara, which means he would have been paying close attention to her and what happened to her. He was also present at Harrenhal. He also says she 'looked to (a) Stark' - though whether that was before or after her dishonour is not clear. It may have been the cause of her dishonour, or the result. Elswhere, Barristan shows he has respect for Ned Stark, defending him to Dany. Strange that, if Ned is the man Ashara looked to yet thinks if she had looked to him (Barristan) instead things could have been different (even stranger if Ned was the actual cause of the dishonour - clearly to Barristan's knowledge Ashara was romancing with someone other than Ned unless there was a covered up rape by a third party).

6. Barristan also muses to himself that in his experience (which we know includes Dany and Ashara) young girls always choose 'fiery' (passionate/exciting, burn out fast, consume rather than nurture) men over solid 'mud' (good for growth, nurturing, fertile, but boring) men. Clearly he believes Ashara 'chose' a fire man.

- ask yourself which category Ned would fall under, and which category Brandon

7. Brandon has history with sleeping with at least one young unwed noblewoman. And descriptive statements such as 'took what he wanted' and 'liked a bloody sword' said about him. Ned on the other hand is almost painfully honourable and as Ned said, 'was never the boy he was' (translation = was bron with a stick up his ass and didn't have a wild youth sowing his oats - note also that Wylla is, in Robert's opinion, Ned's "that one time" - so Robert, who was Ned's best friends, clearly has never even suspected Ned of having anything with Ashara Dayne).

- ask yourself which one of the brothers you see as more likely to sleep with a young noblewoman at all

- then remind yourself that Brandon would have to dump her afterward (he's engaged already in a political match) and Ned is basically free of entanglements yet apparently appears to have dumped her anyway???

In the end it comes down to this.

The evidence for Ned+Ashara consists of a bunch of rumours told by people who weren't at Harrenhal, several years later, and is logically explained by Jon's appearance post ToJ. It also flies against everything we know about Ned's character and there is a mysterious lack of thought by Ned about his supposed 'lost love' Ashara.

Brandon in place of Ned however fits every bit of character evidence of all three participants, fits better the 'usual' patterns of youthful behaviour and relationships, has equal or greater 'opportunity' and fits the thoughts and remembrances of someone who was actually present and semi-involved (if only from the sideline so to speak, being present and in love with Ashara).

But there is much still up for debate, especially including Lady Dustin's veracity and how Barristan's thoughts about Ashara being dishonoured and 'looking to' a Stark could be interpreted. At this stage little is certain. But definitely there is a case for Brandon+Ashara, though a few people scorn the idea without actually providing credible refutations.

Just as there is still a case for N+A being possible.