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100% my favourite episode of the season. The credits came on, and I gasped, couldn't believe it ended so soon.

I watch with my wife who is a non-book reader, and this was the first episode of the season she didn't have me pause to answer a gazillion questions, which I think speaks to how well the first two episodes set up the season for non-book readers.

LOVED Margery... (loved her as Anne Boleyn as well). And love that they made her older and more cunning early on. Really great scene.

Going to watch it again tonight, missed some aspects of the Bran scene people are talking about.

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I really liked this ep.

Arya

As much as I love the books, all the wandering around the Riverlands gets boring. So I was really happy to see them condense that part. I also liked the bit where Arya says that dead Lommy was Gendry. That's the wily girl who would figure out how to make Jagen H'gar help her take Harrenhal.

Renly and Loras

I thought that scene was really hot. (I'm starting to get why many straight guys are so into lesbians.)

Generally, I'm liking how they're developing Renly. In the book, he never made much impression on me. Also liking Margery. But really, when trying to seduce a gay man, there's no point in showing off your boobies. Agree that Loras appears to have bulked up since last season.

omitted characters

In the interview with D & D on this site, they explain that they are holding off on introducing a lot of ACOK characters until next season. (Such a large cast is expensive.) So there's still hope for the Reeds.

And I really hope they keep the Queen of Thorns. She's one of my favorite characters.

Sansa & Shae

Didn't particularly enjoy that scene, but I think it's way too soon to say it was pointless. We don't know where they're taking this relationship.

Ironborn

No strong opinion about Yara, but she hasn't made much of an impression so far. Otherwise, I really liked all of those scenes. The actor playing Balon is great.

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I think its a little of both. But if I had to argue about ONE word in this discussion it would be in the connotation that the gay "sex" scenes are in any way "Gratuitous.”

For starters I am 100% with you on the change in Renly's character being harder to accept (the guys who do the parody GoT from season 1 have this small add-on where they show the "cool, book Renly" and how he is replaced with "weaker Renly" from the show; it ends with new Renly complaining that he has a "boo-boo."). This Renly is a baby. When he needs to turn on the charm and the gravitas he can do it (obviously on display with Cat and his people). But in private? He's weak and in way over his head.

But I want to stress that from a plot-development POV, its not a bad change at all. Its far, far more easy to understand how Renly was able to "win" over the Reach now that we know what he is- its because he didn't have anything to do with it! The Tyrells found their tool and decided to appear like they were hitching their wagon to his star, but in reality Renly is just a passanger here. The Tyrells are in this and they know it. Not their problem if Renly hasn't caught up. I truly love how Maergery Tyrell has developed; she is a fierce player. And maybe part of the problem is sexism insofar as anytime a man appears weak in the face of a strong woman we sometimes think him effeminine. That's not fair, though. However, overall Renly's homosexuality has nothing to do with him being weak.

But, when you add in Renly's gayness there can be a reaction to resort to the stereotype, and a negative one at that. And honestly- I liked him better in the book because he was entirely NOT swishy stereotype. Renly was butch gay. He was this tough, charismatic endearing guy who had flash and substance. And he had absoultely no confidence problem. At all. Series Renly is not that. He does seem to exude the sterotype. But as others have said, Loras certainly does not. Loras- to turn a phrase -seems far more like (book) Renly than Renly does.

I think this Renly works because in this Universe (the series as opposed to the book) his homosexuality is an active part of this story and not some gratoitious add-on. Its up to the viewer to accept it at face value and not play-out the sterotype because it has nothing to do with this story. Renly is weak and reaching for more than he can handle because he is a third-born, unproven untested boy who lives in the shadow of his two bad-ass brothers. And he is being told- by Tyrell after Tyrell -that he is "loved." And so he rolls the dice. And he is utterly in over his head.

And when you simply look at Renly as a gay man the sex scenes lose their taboo feel. And once that happens the story comes alive. Renly has no reason to hide his homosexuality from Maergery- she is fine with it and she is trying to teach him to be fine with it. He's a King; act like it! A King can have a man and a woman and another man if he wants. He's the King.

Because in the end this comes down to what Maergery wants. She wants a King in her stomach. And Renly being gay has absolutely nothing to do with that.

That's why it works.

I should clarify that I didn't object to the gay 'sex' scene for its own sake, or find it gratuitous at all.

I just find the complete weakening of the character coincidental with the decision to completely amp up the degree to which being gay is a central characteristic a bad combination.

And as you say, it's not just that he goes from being a brave, able warrior to afraid of blood...they downplay him pretty much across the board. His confidence and charisma, which in the book are 3 dimensional and very real, in the show come off as forced and kinda squirmy. Like, for example, how he deals with Cat's challenges. In the show he pauses, kinda twitches a bit, forces a smile and makes the best of it...in the book he genuinely laughs, talks about her besting his defenders (with words) and smoothly overcomes the difficulty about titles.

That's just one example.

You mentioned others...we never get a sense in the book that Renly is being lead, is indecisive and in need of constant prodding. We never get the sense that Loras is the dominant one in the relationship, or Margery in the marriage. Whenever Renly's there, he's the one who commands attention and admiration. In the books he's a man. In the show he's a child.

And lastly, my own impression based on the vague evidence from the book is that he's not necessarily exclusively gay. He talks pretty openly about getting Margery pregnant, etc. And, more, I don't get the sense that to whatever degree he is gay is something he's ashamed about. Again you get a sense of a man completely at ease with what and who he is, whereas in the show he seems nervous and insecure about almost everything.

I'd like to add that I don't blame the actor; the character as written, he's playing pretty well. And I also think that I can understand, to a degree, why they are marginalizing Renly and possibly Stannis. Too many titans. The book has room enough for a bunch of awesome people...but in a 10 hour show, too many will reduce scope and come off cartoonish.

I just wish they'd picked another means that an easy stereotype.

Edited by James Arryn
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I have been wondering this since the first episode and I apologize in advance..........

But why is Jon and the Night's Watch traveling North of the wall? Is it to look for his uncle? What am I missing?

Thanks!

they are ranging to see why all the wildlings that used to live close to the wall seem to have disappeared

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Also liking Margery. But really, when trying to seduce a gay man, there's no point in showing off your boobies.

I got the impression she was just toying with him, pretty much knowing full well what his reaction was going to be. She wasn't (or didn't appear to be) in the least bit surprised, rejected or angry. I thought it worked.

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The way I read it, Shae is awkward, angry, humiliated and very stressed in the current situation, and she's acting like it. In which case, she's perfect!

Yeah, can't put my finger on exactly why, but Shae's scenes generally annoy me.

In the book as well, but in a different way. More for her myopia. In the show its partly because she only has 2 gears, acting sexual or acting pissed off.

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I think this Renly works because in this Universe (the series as opposed to the book) his homosexuality is an active part of this story and not some gratoitious add-on. Its up to the viewer to accept it at face value and not play-out the sterotype because it has nothing to do with this story.

It's not an add-on by any means. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance was only possible because people believed her to be a virgin after a few weeks of marriage. That wouldn't have been possible with a straight Renly. Had Renly been straight and gotten her knocked up with the heir the Tyrell/Baratheon alliance had a MUCH bigger army than King's Landing and Stannis combined. But because she wasn't preggers and he died they needed to side with the Lannisters.

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Margaery looks way oldr than sixteen or however old she was in the books. The Margaery-Tommen marriage later is going to be more awkward-looking, since she could borderline pass for his mum. Glad HBO found a way to fulfill their episode nudity quota. :P

I loved the scene(s) with Tyrion planting different lies with the small council, and the insolent little exchange between Sansa and Shae.

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I should clarify that I didn't object to the gay 'sex' scene for its own sake, or find it gratuitous at all.

I just find the complete weakening of the character coincidental with the decision to completely amp up the degree to which being gay is a central characteristic a bad combination.

And as you say, it's not just that he goes from being a brave, able warrior to afraid of blood...they downplay him pretty much across the board. His confidence and charisma, which in the book are 3 dimensional and very real, in the show come off as forced and kinda squirmy. Like, for example, how he deals with Cat's challenges. In the show he pauses, kinda twitches a bit, forces a smile and makes the best of it...in the book he genuinely laughs, talks about her besting his defenders (with words) and smoothly overcomes the difficulty about titles.

That's just one example.

You mentioned others...we never get a sense in the book that Renly is being lead, is indecisive and need constant prodding. We never get the sense that Loras is the dominant one in the relationship, or Margery in the marriage. Whenever Renly's there, he's the one who commands attention and admiration. In the books he's a man. In the show he's a child.

And lastly, my own impression based on the vague evidence from the book is that he's not necessarily exclusively gay. He talks pretty openly about getting Margery pregnant, etc. And, more, I don't get the sense that to whatever degree he is gay is something he's ashamed about. Again you get a sense of a man completely at ease with what and who he is, whereas in the show he seems nervous and insecure about almost everything.

I'd like to add that I don't blame the actor; the character as written, he's playing pretty well. And I also think that I can understand, to a degree, why they are marginalizing Renly and possibly Stannis. Too many titans. The book has room enough for a bunch of awesome people...but in a 10 hour show, too many will reduce scope and come off cartoonish.

I just wish they'd picked another means that an easy stereotype.

Completely agree, book Renly is a confident, almost arrogant man that definitely shows attraction to women and some straight tendencies.

This is a case of shock value for the HBO series- just like the Ros scenes. Both are equally inaccurate and corny IMO.

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Very well put mate! American audiences will of course often prove to be less accepting of gay sex scenes.

Sorry to break this to you, mate, but there was no “gay sex scene” in S2E3. Showing affection is not sex. Making out is not sex. Buggering and blow jobs are sex. We got none of that here, and neither did Renly.

I really Do Not Understand the fragile American male psyche that gets all queasy and awkward over seeing two young men in love — and reasonably attractive ones at that. This wasn’t even heavy petting; it was just making out, which a perfectly normal and healthy thing, unlike almost all the sex scenes we see in this series. Plus showing the Loras–Renly–Margaery flower triangle/sandwich is essential to the plot, unlike the dumb boring sexposition scenes.

I had never realized that junior high school sex-ed classes in the States needed to include illustrations of same-sex kissing, but apparently it does, given the painfully provincial reaction to natural affection manifested in this thread.

Apparently those of fragile self-image need to see a lot more of this kind of thing if that’s what it takes for them to outgrow their own insecurities and just let people be people. Hopefully we’ll more of it next episode when Loras helps Renly “pray”.

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Hmmm... I dont know about that. I mean she needn't do it all alone. And it makes more sense to have a Petyr-Dontos-Marge alliance (Dontos being such a sucker for pretty lil things) than including Olena in the mix. I think that is a totally expendable character and D&D'd see it that way too. I mean, the Reeds have been omitted. Damphair has been omitted...what's Olena compared to that?

Fair point!

I'm not convinced they can get away without an intermediary between Margaery and Littlefinger. She's too young to be actively scheming at such a high level.

The Reeds were really just a plot device to get Bran north of the Wall - as much as I enjoy their characters, from a narrative point of view they're readily expendable. Similarly, Damphair only exists to introduce us to the Drowned God, and call a Kingsmoot. Both of those things can be done without him.

But scheming to assassinate a king... we'll see how they develop Margaery's character in the show, but I can't see book Margaery doing much other than following instructions / scheming along a very set path (i.e. this is what our family wants, here is your left and right of arc, scheme however you will within these bounds).

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Jon looking tormented and vulnerable again ... I can never see him without thinking of that meme with him and Jaime Lannister by the forge in Winterfell!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq3u925Gah1qlx77f.jpg

Too bad that Shae as so far the only German actor is being hated on by almost everybody :-( I have to say though that her German accent and Grammar grates even on my ears (".... and I tell him the story of how we (squeak) meet!"). her acting is less than impressive too, which is strange, a while back she won a pretty important prize for her role in "Gegen die Wand". I wonder if the producers thought the role would fit her especially well because Sibel Kekilli started her career doing hardcore porn.

.... One can only hope that Jaquen H´gar will make up for it.

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Sorry to break this to you, mate, but there was no “gay sex scene” in S2E3. Showing affection is not sex. Making out is not sex. Buggering and blow jobs are sex. We got none of that here, and neither did Renly.

I really Do Not Understand the fragile American male psyche that gets all queasy and awkward over seeing two young men in love — and reasonably attractive ones at that. This wasn’t even heavy petting; it was just making out, which a perfectly normal and healthy thing, unlike almost all the sex scenes we see in this series. Plus showing the Loras–Renly–Margaery flower triangle/sandwich is essential to the plot, unlike the dumb boring sexposition scenes.

I had never realized that junior high school sex-ed classes in the States needed to include illustrations of same-sex kissing, but apparently it does, given the painfully provincial reaction to natural affection manifested in this thread.

Apparently those of fragile self-image need to see a lot more of this kind of thing if that’s what it takes for them to outgrow their own insecurities and just let people be people. Hopefully we’ll more of it next episode when Loras helps Renly “pray”.

Just a teeny-weenie self-richteous.

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I am disappointed that Renly in the series is so stereo-typically gay. I was more impressed with him in the book than in the HBO series. I think he should have been more masculine in the show. He should have been bigger and badder, but still gay.

In the show who would want to follow him? Remember he has an older brother, even if no one likes him, they would follow him over someone whom they have no confidence in militarily.

Edited by wolverine
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I am disappointed that Renly in the series is so stereo-typically gay. I was more impressed with him in the book than in the HBO series. I think he should have been more masculine in the show. He should have been bigger and badder, but still gay.

In the show who would want to follow him? Remember he has an older brother, even if no one likes him, they would follow him over someone whom they have no confidence in militarily.

In the books they tease him for spending more on clothing than most of the women in court. That's pretty stereotypical.

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I also wanted to add something on the worst character in the show who was also in the books, Shea.

Part of the problem with Shea is that the makers of the show changed the character dramatically at the start of the show believing (erroneously) tha tthey could make a seemless transition for Shea as the show moved on. Yeah that hasn't happened. Shea from the book was this doe-eyed beuty who faked innoccence and misunderstanding very well. She could hide her cynicism very well. The problem with series-Shea is that she has been presented as worldly, well travelled and almost the intellectual equal of Tyrion (that drinking game scene set us up for all that). Therefore, trying to hide Shea behind ignorance or misunderstanding is not in the cards.

That changes everythig. Now, unlike the books, we cannot see Shea in actyion and think "whore, but she could have a heart of gold and she doesn't really understand what's going on; she;s like 18!" Not this Shea. The accent, the up-jumped status as an intellectual wizard etc all conspire to destroy that character. And in her place? Not a fungible alternative. This Shea is too smart to make us think she misunderstands what's going on; she cannot play the innoccent or the naive (while in the books she could at least fake it for the readers). And the fact that her voice makes me want to stick my head in a vate of liquid nitrogen is not a possitive.

She's not working because the show creators have changed the character but kept consistent her actions and reactions. Its a sham. Its not working. Fail.

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Sorry to break this to you, mate, but there was no “gay sex scene” in S2E3. Showing affection is not sex. Making out is not sex. Buggering and blow jobs are sex. We got none of that here, and neither did Renly.

I really Do Not Understand the fragile American male psyche that gets all queasy and awkward over seeing two young men in love — and reasonably attractive ones at that. This wasn’t even heavy petting; it was just making out, which a perfectly normal and healthy thing, unlike almost all the sex scenes we see in this series. Plus showing the Loras–Renly–Margaery flower triangle/sandwich is essential to the plot, unlike the dumb boring sexposition scenes.

I had never realized that junior high school sex-ed classes in the States needed to include illustrations of same-sex kissing, but apparently it does, given the painfully provincial reaction to natural affection manifested in this thread.

Apparently those of fragile self-image need to see a lot more of this kind of thing if that’s what it takes for them to outgrow their own insecurities and just let people be people. Hopefully we’ll more of it next episode when Loras helps Renly “pray”.

Fragile psyche? You're the one who seems the most upset over the whole situation..... Even busting out the ad hominems.

Edited by Lord Ben
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Making out is not sex. Buggering and blow jobs are sex.

Eeeeeer... say that again ? o.O

Except if you use "make out" just as meaning "kiss" and not "sexual intercourse", in which case I would understand.

Edited by Arkash
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