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It's funny how some guys can't place themselves inside anyone's head but their own. Especially since even the most elementary observation would show him that straight women and gay men exist.

It's like someone who hates cake wondering why a bakery opened up nearby since "No-one likes that stuff anyway."

The funny thing is that women are always checking each other out, noticing who’s good-looking and all, has a fine figure and face, nice clothes, carries herself well, and all that, tacitly comparing the woman they’re looking at with their own gifts or accoutrements in that regard. This happens all the time, and any woman will tell you as much. It’s human nature.

The funny thing isn’t that men don’t do that. They do. The funny thing is that almost no man will ever admit that they’re doing this too, even though of course they very much are. They refuse to acknowledge that some men are better looking then others, or have more charisma and sex appeal — that is, that men are themselves capable of being attractive. It’s ridiculous, because they pretend that they themselves are ugly and repulsive. That can’t be good for one’s mental health. Think about it.

Women certainly don’t have these stupid hangups that American men pretend to have. Women aren’t afraid to admire another woman’s beauty. That doesn’t mean they want to jump in the sack with them! It’s just acknowledging others’ humanity.

Why so many insecure American men never reach even that minimal stage of self-awareness and development, I have no idea. It’s sad, really.

If they’re so hung-up about men’s bodies being gross and disgusting, how can they love themselves? Perhaps this is why men, especially young men just coming into the habit, are so often ridiculously guilt-ridden about their own masturbation, since they’re clearly using something they pretend to loathe to pleasure themselves with, which sets up a wicked cognitive dissonance. It is, after all, a man’s hand on their own man-cock that they’re getting off on, even though they pretend all cocks are somehow gross and unattractive even though they so love their own. Guilt city.

Again, not a very mentally healthy situation; not at all.

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“My royal brother loves tournaments and feasts,” Renly Baratheon said, “and he loathes what he calls ‘counting coppers.’ “

My impression is that Renly is quite condescending about Robert's desires and it's not something he personally loves.

Well, all I can say is we read this very differently. I think he's contrasting action vs. accountability, which was the subject they were all kind of talking about. I didn't get the first part as indicating distaste or whatever at all.

Jaime and Tywin are Lannisters. They "shit gold". Same for the Targs, it was important for their image,

Right, is my point. It's an important part of medieval statecraft. It is one of the most reliable methods of winning popularity. It's the equivlent of modern commercials/billboards, etc.

There are many warriors who are described differently, the Cleganes, Stannis, Robert, Lord Beric, Bronn,

Again, none of these are considered good at statecraft, if they're involved in it at all. And Robert wasn't known for dressing particularly one way or another that I can recall.

the Kingsguard etc.

?

Disagree. Think about the notion of pure white cloth in that age. And what that means, in a practical sense.

All are described as simply dressed. And we're not talking about Renly's armor here though there also Renly is described as caring more about aesthetics than function.

'More'? You may be right, but I can't recall examples, but I would say the same is true for Tywin, Jaime, etc. Unless there is some benefit to huge heavy red cloaks or golden or enameled armor.

He simply buys a lot of colorful soft silk outfits.

Agreed. And as noted re: Theon, that's not a feminie/gay thing, it's a Westerosi thing.

We also have Stannis saying "What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be a king. I ask you, why did the gods inflict me with brothers?”

Now even considering that Stannis is a bitter old man ranting about Renly that still suggests Renly is hardly a great warrior.

I don't think we can discount how unreliable Stannis is as a source for this kind of thing. Not that I think he's lying, but that his standards are recognized as abnormal for his time/status.

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The funny thing is that women are always checking each other out, noticing who’s good-looking and all, has a fine figure and face, nice clothes, carries herself well, and all that, tacitly comparing the woman they’re looking at with their own gifts or accoutrements in that regard. This happens all the time, and any woman will tell you as much. It’s human nature.

The funny thing isn’t that men don’t do that. They do. The funny thing is that almost no man will ever admit that they’re doing this too, even though of course they very much are. They refuse to acknowledge that some men are better looking then others, or have more charisma and sex appeal — that is, that men are themselves capable of being attractive. It’s ridiculous, because they pretend that they themselves are ugly and repulsive. That can’t be good for one’s mental health. Think about it.

Women certainly don’t have these stupid hangups that American men pretend to have. Women aren’t afraid to admire another woman’s beauty. That doesn’t mean they want to jump in the sack with them! It’s just acknowledging others’ humanity.

Why so many insecure American men never reach even that minimal stage of self-awareness and development, I have no idea. It’s sad, really.

I would say that most people would probably describe me as a manly man and I am definitely an American. If I am around my wife I will comment whether or not I think a guy is attractive, but you are right around other guys I would probably not make the same comments that I would when alone with my wife or around other women.

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Could someone point out what exactly Theon's letter said? I didn't catch it.

(Edit: Sorry, I missed AquariumDrinker's post!)

Robb,

I hope this reaches you in time. My father has rejected the offer and plans to attack the North, raiding the shores and taking Deepwood Motte. Mobilize your army and make for the North before it's too late. I'll write again when I can.

Edited by int11

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Well, all I can say is we read this very differently. I think he's contrasting action vs. accountability, which was the subject they were all kind of talking about. I didn't get the first part as indicating distaste or whatever at all.

Right, is my point. It's an important part of medieval statecraft. It is one of the most reliable methods of winning popularity. It's the equivlent of modern commercials/billboards, etc.

Again, none of these are considered good at statecraft, if they're involved in it at all. And Robert wasn't known for dressing particularly one way or another that I can recall.

?

Disagree. Think about the notion of pure white cloth in that age. And what that means, in a practical sense.

'More'? You may be right, but I can't recall examples, but I would say the same is true for Tywin, Jaime, etc. Unless there is some benefit to huge heavy red cloaks or golden or enameled armor.

Agreed. And as noted re: Theon, that's not a feminie/gay thing, it's a Westerosi thing.

I don't think we can discount how unreliable Stannis is as a source for this kind of thing. Not that I think he's lying, but that his standards are recognized as abnormal for his time/status.

But these aren't smallfolk commenting on Renly's clothes. These are LF, Varys and Stannis, they are all nobles themselves all good at state craft and all described as well dressed, and they saw fit to comment specifically on Renly's fashion sense and not in the context of a discussion on fashion but in the context of discussing Renly's personality. All describe him with with words like soft, silky, pretty colors.

In fact while in the lands beyond the narrow sea we do have many men including warriors described as dressed in colourful silky clothes in Westeros it's exceptionally rare. Only Renly and maybe Varys are routinely described this way. Tywin and Jaime's armor incidentally is described as very impressive, expensive, imperious maybe. But not colourful.

Renly is also described as clean shaven unlike most other men, with long soft hair which he often brushes. Bottom line is Renly unlike any other noble in the book is often described by other nobles with typical modern gay stereotypes, and I can't remember any description of him suggesting stereotypical "macho" or "manly" desires.

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CrypticWeirwood:

When I read your posts about men and sexuality etc I am reminded of that scene in Great Muppet Caper where Kermit is depressed and the actor Peter Faulk sits down next to him and claims- without a hint of irony -that he knows exactly what Kermit is went through. He then details this elaborate story about a cleaning business and lost love and failed businesses all with exquisite detail.

When he's done, Kermit looks up at him and says what I feel when I read what you are saying, "You know, its amazing; you are 100% wrong. I mean nothing you have said is even remotely true."

Faulk then tries to sell Kermit a watch.

I find your massive, overly simplistuic sterotypes of men and women to be parodies of reality and not real; certainly not based on facts. I find their application to this discussion to be overly shrill, patronzing and arrogant. Had a man said anything you said they would be labled a mysoginist and we'd have a good old fashined "[mod] We do not accept sexism here [/mod]" response.

Here si the thing: men do not care enough about the way other men look to anby discernable degree. Do we notice a man in very good shape? Sure. I have stared at Tyrell Ownes' abs and Manny Paccio's pecks for a long time; I think Tom Brady is handsome and find John Hamm to be the type of sexapeal I would kill to emulate. Otherwise? Yeah, unless you are trying to get into my Wife's pants I don't care. Most men do not. Your description of our own personal images are grotesquely misshapen. We hate ourselves? Really? Generally, no. We have bad images of ourselves? Not generall, no. We are absued by imagery which makes us hatre masterbation? Ah... have you ever listened to Tori Amos? That women felt shame for masetrbating (see her song Icicle).

I generally find your comments as an attemt to start a fight and for better or worse I have taken the bait. The problem is that I find your attention to this topic a wee bit arrogant and unhelpful.

But hey- you got what you wanted.

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I wish they wouldn´t make every kissing scene sound like somebody was ripping slugs off a window pane ...

They must be using the same Foley guy who makes all their hummers sound like someone drinking from a dog bowl.

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Shea is great, i don't understand why everyone's hating her. I like it better and find it more believable then the book version. Yes. she is a bit of an annoying bitch but that's the character.

All the Renly/Loras/Margery stuff was just perfect. I think its great how the show manages to show us stuff out in the open that we didn't get in the book because of missing POVs. For the novels that worked fine and it was cool to have to "discover" things, but i'm sure for a tv show it just has to be less subtle.

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i think that the episode was great, i don't like the part shae/sansa, because that's not to happen in this part of the history, other thing will be with littlefinger and catelyn, because in the book never show that part, but i hope that the history of the book don't change in the episode

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One mor thing, anyone else been dissapointed by Lora's armor? Didn't he have a quite amazing Loras-typical armor in the first season and now it was just something boringly generic? I didn't even recognize him at first (though i knew it must be him)

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The problem I have with the show-version of Shae is that the way she acts (more entitled and demanding) completely changes her relationship with Tyrion. Watching it, it makes me wonder why he's even putting up with her.

In the books, Shae was portrayed more as this overly submissive minx who would placate Tyrion. This might seem demeaning to women in general, or Tyrion's taste in women, but it really wasn't.

Tyrion was a man who was jaded by his past experience with Tysha. He was a dwarf who believed that he would never find true love and could only find comfort in the bed of whores. But he was absolutely taken with Shae because she was such a good actress for a whore. Even if he suspected (or deep down he knew) that she was putting on a farce, she could still make him believe that she was head over heels in love with him, even if only in the moment. Which is what made her betrayal (as well as Bronn's) more hurtful to him. He so wanted to believe that she was with him for more reasons than money or power, but as soon as she found someone with more money and more power, she left him.

I just don't see any of those strands of their relationship on the show.

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In regards to Shea and Sansa, and I'm sorry if I repeat something, because i have not read this whole thread, here are my thoughts:

Shea is kind of a lame character. The acting may be part of it. Sometimes people with a strong accent can be a little hard to read if you can't get into the rythym of how they speak, so I will allow for a little of that. But, I will be really disappointed if there is not some kind of pay off for her mysterious background. Also, it does not make sense that she grew up in any sort of noble household, because whether she was a lady or a servant, she would have a good idea of what a handmaiden does, even if she is not good at doing it.

As far as how Sansa acts in the scene with Shae, I don't think her behavior was that bad. She has to be asking hereself why Cersei would send her a completely ignorant hadmaiden. The Lanisters are probably the most sophisticated house in Westeros, and Sansa is betrothed to the King. She has to believe this is not an accident, which it isn't. She probably can think of no good reason she would get a servant like this, which only leave her more unsettled. The servant does not act like a servent either. An actual sevant in this position would be humble, scared, and would be begging her lady's pardon. So Sansa has to be feeling that she is being screwed with in another new way. So she can either act like she is scared of some new trap, or go the more defiant route and say just screw it.

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Show Renly is definitely softer than book Renly. I can't see how that can even be debated. Physically, he is described as the mirror image of a young Robert, he was a massive warrior.On the show, he is thin and fairly small. The whole fear of blood thing was just weird. The impression I get from the show is that he is unwilling to engage in the fight for the throne. That was certainly not the case in the books. The impression of book Renly was that he was enjoyig the process of going to war too much. When you couple that with the open homosexuality (where Martin was afraid to make it open in the books), you are going to open yourself to criticism for the stereotype.

It would be like if The Walking Dead suddenly had T-Dog start making fried chicken and greens for the crew. Maybe he just likes fried chicken and greens (I sure do), but it is a stereotype people are not comfortable with.

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Overall, I'd rank the Renley shave scene as sexier than the Pycelle one. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The way Shae acted around Tyrion was a bit problematic as it makes her eventual betrayal less surprising and hurtful. In the books, she was so sweet and submissive to Tyrion that one starts to think she might actually harbour some feelings for him even though, yes, we know she's a whore. That's the same gripe I have about Margaery's portrayal in the TV series. It erases any shred of doubt that she might, just might, be an unsuspecting innocent.

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Good episode. Gwendoline Christie as Brienne is great. I loved how they showed Catelyn standing next to her. It made her look so incredibly tall. Talking about tallness. How tall is Sophie Turner anyway? She really towered above Shae in that scene with her.

I'm also glad that Renly has a Kingsguard instead of a Rainbow Guard. Rainbow colored cloaks would look laugable and terrible.

And I think they handled the battle scene in the end quite well. They gave Yoren a heroic death. And I loved his "I don't think I will" line. Somehow I always remembered that line by him from the books, and whenever I think of Yoren I hear that line.

Edit: I have to say that Yara was way better than in the previous episode. And for some reason she looked better to me as well.

Edited by K-Raptor

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Just rewatched the episode, and it seems like Renly's actor was trying to emulate Roberts expressions a bit. I'm specifically thinking about his walk with Catelyn.

Thought it was a nice touch.

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