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CrypticWeirwood:

When I read your posts about men and sexuality etc I am reminded of that scene in Great Muppet Caper where Kermit is depressed and the actor Peter Faulk sits down next to him and claims- without a hint of irony -that he knows exactly what Kermit is went through. He then details this elaborate story about a cleaning business and lost love and failed businesses all with exquisite detail.

When he's done, Kermit looks up at him and says what I feel when I read what you are saying, "You know, its amazing; you are 100% wrong. I mean nothing you have said is even remotely true."

Faulk then tries to sell Kermit a watch.

I find your massive, overly simplistuic sterotypes of men and women to be parodies of reality and not real; certainly not based on facts. I find their application to this discussion to be overly shrill, patronzing and arrogant. Had a man said anything you said they would be labled a mysoginist and we'd have a good old fashined "[mod] We do not accept sexism here [/mod]" response.

Here si the thing: men do not care enough about the way other men look to anby discernable degree. Do we notice a man in very good shape? Sure. I have stared at Tyrell Ownes' abs and Manny Paccio's pecks for a long time; I think Tom Brady is handsome and find John Hamm to be the type of sexapeal I would kill to emulate. Otherwise? Yeah, unless you are trying to get into my Wife's pants I don't care. Most men do not. Your description of our own personal images are grotesquely misshapen. We hate ourselves? Really? Generally, no. We have bad images of ourselves? Not generall, no. We are absued by imagery which makes us hatre masterbation? Ah... have you ever listened to Tori Amos? That women felt shame for masetrbating (see her song Icicle).

I generally find your comments as an attemt to start a fight and for better or worse I have taken the bait. The problem is that I find your attention to this topic a wee bit arrogant and unhelpful.

But hey- you got what you wanted.

^ This dude makes sense.

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I really liked this episode.

Gwendoline Christie is as good as anyone could possibly hope for. She looks the part in all ways and the lengths she have gone to in order to mold her physique to the part (as heard in interviews) is amazingly dedicated. It payed off big time.

I really liked Margaery Tyrell as well. She's a beautiful woman and the expansion of her role worked very well. Overall the acting was great in this episode and the only thing I'm not a fan of is Shae. Not because she's different from the book (that's a poor argument) but because she just doesn't connect with me. That's a small part though and since that's my only real complaint it shows how good the episode was.

Show Renly is definitely softer than book Renly. I can't see how that can even be debated. Physically, he is described as the mirror image of a young Robert, he was a massive warrior.On the show, he is thin and fairly small. The whole fear of blood thing was just weird. The impression I get from the show is that he is unwilling to engage in the fight for the throne. That was certainly not the case in the books. The impression of book Renly was that he was enjoyig the process of going to war too much. When you couple that with the open homosexuality (where Martin was afraid to make it open in the books), you are going to open yourself to criticism for the stereotype.

It would be like if The Walking Dead suddenly had T-Dog start making fried chicken and greens for the crew. Maybe he just likes fried chicken and greens (I sure do), but it is a stereotype people are not comfortable with.

I disagree. There's no risk for complaints about stereotypical presentation of gay men because there is a great warrior that happens to be gay as well.

As for Renly in the book, he certainly took all the time he possibly could before actually having to fight. He went from castle to castle partying and socializing, rather than to march his superior force to King's Landing and putting an end to the Lannister rule. He was more of a warrior than the show's version but he certainly wasn't lusting for battle. He didn't even seem to care when he lost in tournaments.

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What is that thing that Sam gave Gilly? I tried to look at it but I have no idea. How do you use that thing when you stitch?

Its a thimble, so you dont poke your finger while stitching.

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One mor thing, anyone else been dissapointed by Lora's armor? Didn't he have a quite amazing Loras-typical armor in the first season and now it was just something boringly generic? I didn't even recognize him at first (though i knew it must be him)

Maybe you don't want to wear your best armor in a melee.

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Best episode of the season. Looks like we're finally gaining some steam.

I especially liked the editing of Tyrion's scheming. That said, I think it was a scene that was primarily enjoyable for readers. My non-reading girlfriend was totally confused and we had to rewind. Thing is, the people Tyrion starts to talk about have barely been introduced (myrcella and Dorne), or fading in memory this season (the vale). This was inevitable but perhaps they could have shifted the dialogue by starting with Varys to whom Tyrion talks about Theon, a familiar name at this point.

This is not a big issue by any means, but I just really thought it was remarkable how nonreaders and readers experience the show differently. I thought it was awesome while my girlfriend was totally confused.

Alfie Allen rules as theon and the show really does a good job in drawing out his character. I have never understood the theon haters and thankfully the show portrays him as three dimensional as I picture theon to be.

On Loras/Renly: besides theon's scene with the captain's daughter, this was the only sex/intimacy scene in this season that really served the plot on a meaningful way. Homophobes should GTFO. Sex and intimacy in drama is not just meant to turn us on. It's there to tell a story, not to have us masturbate. That's what porn is for.

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Only downsides: Tommen's random northern accent (it seems they basically toss a coin when deciding whether a character should be northern or not, regardless of where this person lives or where they were raised), the fact that there are now three distinct pronunciations of Tyrell (Tie-RELL, Ta-RELL, TI-rel, don't really understand why they don't have consistent pronunciations on this show...) and Sansa randomly deciding she's gonna be a bitch to Shae (jeez, how about take the opportunity to have a conversation with someone who isn't trying to systematically eliminate your entire family?)...

But these are minor quibbles. OBVIOUSLY Tyrion is fantastic, Bran fantastic, Arya fantastic.......yadayadayada. Really glad they kept faithful to Tyrion's chapters for the weeding out and subsequent shaving of Pycelle. And Margaery Tyrell is awesome, she's being prepared carefully for her later role as Cersei-esque "know-how-to-use-what-you-were-given" and plotting with Olenna (if she appears, hope she does).

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Some scattered observations from episode three:

  • Gilly and Sam are kinda sweet, if awkward.
  • The realization when Jon learns that Mormont already knew about Craster and the sacrifice of his sins...
  • Man, Brienne is one tall woman, especially standing by Catelyn.
  • Wow, Maraery is one cleavaged queen. Not that I mind. I've always liked Natalie Dormer (from The Tudors). She has this odd look about her, but still pretty.
  • I can almost sympathize with Theon Greyjoy. Almost... And his father is such an a*****e. Theon was right to scold him. Still, I hate the Ironborn. I sort of liked Asha in the books, but I don't care for this "Yara" version.
  • I think it's safe to say that I'll never warm up to this version of Shae. And they toss her in as Sansa's maid just so she'll have something to do. What does Tyrion see in Shae here?
  • But Tyrion freakin' rules here! Playing off Pycelle, Littlefinger and Varys. Excellent! And I really like Varys too.
  • Aidan Gillen is very uneven as Littlefinger. Sometimes he's pitch perfect but lately I come to think he's that so often as he ought to be.
  • Margaery really knows how to play the game of thrones. I like her!
  • Maise Williams continues to rock as Arya! And poor Yoren. But where was the Mountain?
  • The captives are already going to Harrenhal. I gather they're cutting down on all the wanderings around the Riverlands. Might as well, wandering around that area almost becomes tedious in the later books.
  • No Dany this week, or Robb.
  • And no Stannis either, despite Dragonstone being in the credits.

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Overall, I'd rank the Renley shave scene as sexier than the Pycelle one. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The way Shae acted around Tyrion was a bit problematic as it makes her eventual betrayal less surprising and hurtful. In the books, she was so sweet and submissive to Tyrion that one starts to think she might actually harbour some feelings for him even though, yes, we know she's a whore. That's the same gripe I have about Margaery's portrayal in the TV series. It erases any shred of doubt that she might, just might, be an unsuspecting innocent.

Did you read the same book as I did? For me Book-Shea was obviously just playing her part. I guess even Tyrion knew it in a way... but he _wanted_ to believe she felt for him. I think show-shea feels like a much more genuine real person...

Edited by hoelk

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Yeah, Shae is about my only disappointment.

Also, I find it tiresome that any discussion on Renly has to turn into some sort of sexual liberation discussion. It's hinted at that people know, nobody cares outside fathering an heir. Westeros values people serving their Family/House/Lord and upholding their vows, what people do privately while publicly serving those people is largely up to them whether it's whoring and boozing (Tyrion), fathering bastards (Robert), or sleeping with Loras (Renly) few people care about your private life when it doesn't interfere with your responsibilities. Westeros is not a society that places a high value on individuality.

Edited by Lord Ben

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Did you read the same book as I did? For me Book-Shea was obviously just playing her part. I guess even Tyrion knew it in a way... but he _wanted_ to believe she felt for him. I think show-shea feels like a much more genuine real person...

If TV Shae is what people consider a normal and acceptable person then we've failed as a society. Edited by Bastard Walder

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and Sansa randomly deciding she's gonna be a bitch to Shae (jeez, how about take the opportunity to have a conversation with someone who isn't trying to systematically eliminate your entire family?)...

Well, given that Shae seems like she doesn't know a thing a real maid would do, Sansa would rightly be suspicious that she's either a spy or just another jab from the Lannisters to make her life more miserable.

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yeah loras did the same.

when he said "you should be seeing to another Ti-rell tonight"

I assure you, this is the way the English pronounce Tyrell - it's a family name with a lot of history here. Therefore, to us - it's the 'correct' way ;)

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In the book Lommy's death scene broke my heart ("You got to carry me"). It didn't have the same impact in the series. We hardly ever saw him before he died :/

I really liked the scene with Maester Luwin and Bran and the scenes with Theon.

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If TV Shae is what people consider a normal and acceptable person then we've failed as a society.

She's not a normal acceptable person. She's a camp-follower prostitute secretly in the employ of a wealthy dwarf with severe women issues serving as the powerful adviser to a sociopath teenage king. Whats normal about that?

I'm fine with TV Shae. In the books I never got the impression that she had genuine feelings for Tyrion- shes a prostitute, its all business. All that's important for the story is that Tyrion starts believe she does. Shes also kind of dumb and frivolous. which is true to the books. There are plenty of strong female characters in ASOIAF- Shae is not one of them. The show has already gone out of its way to make some female characters stronger and more charismatic than they were in the books- Margery, while certainly schooled in the game of thrones, was a fairly minor character in the books, while in the show she's been introduced as a plotting mastermind of House Tyrell's ambition for power. I wouldn't be surprised if the show makes the Joff assassination her idea instead of the QoT's.

However, if you turn EVERY female character into Littlefinger With Boobs, it gets ridiculous. There are frivolous female characters just like there are frivolous male characters, and Shae is one of them.

Edited by salt

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He went from castle to castle partying and socializing

Which is Peace. And I really liked his behaviour: answering a hell of a war by peace, seducing people, proving himself, slowly building his image and stature as a King, minimizing the losses and come after the bloodshed to take the peach... it could have succeed if, well...

I guess that was the perfect choice. I would have done the same instead of running mindlessly to a war, which is what Robb did... those Northmen always had a hotter temper than Dornishmen. Look where that got them...

I think Doran Martell, say whatever you want about him, is the one who does things well.

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Which is Peace. And I really liked his behaviour: answering a hell of a war by peace, seducing people, proving himself, slowly building his image and stature as a King, minimizing the losses and come after the bloodshed to take the peach... it could have succeed if, well...

Of course, as he was partying his way to KL, he was also closing off the food trade, starving his future subjects to death, which was a useful tactic to cause disarray in the capital. And the guy didn't care at all about minimizing losses. Book Renly was preparing to launch an attack on Stannis's army at dawn because it would be super cool and dramatic u guyz, despite the fact that charging with the rising sun directly in the eyes of his men would have meant needless losses for his side. But that was ok, he had plenty of other men to replace the dead ones.

I wouldn't put Renly on the same level as Prince Doran, not by a long shot. I agree that the snake in the grass has managed things pretty well so far (although Q-tip's Eastern adventure certainly didn't go as planned).

Edited by salt

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I have a question. Was the big guy at the end of the episode supposed to be Gregor? Not the bald Amory Lorch, but the dude that pushed over Yoren's dead body with his sword. He looked like a really big guy, but he was wearing Lannister armor and it was kinda dark. I hope it's not Gregor though, only because it would be weird for him to wear Lannister armor instead of his intense black super-armor, which is like half the reason he's so damn hard to kill. If that's the case, it'll probably be the first thing to really bother me at all so far this season (I mean it's hardly a big deal whatsoever, just a stupid little personal gripe, but still it doesn't make much sense that he wouldn't wear his own armor, since he's the lord of his own house and not a part of the Lannister family, just a bannerman).

Edited by Francis Buck

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My favourite part was the last scene, with Yoren and Arya and the foreshadowing of her prayer, and the speeding up of getting her to Harrenhall.

Also: not sure how much of a thespian the gal playing Brienne will eventually turn out to be, but she certainly captures the look; sexyaged Margaery Tyrell works for me just fine, though I hope she is just bethrothed to Tommen down the road, waiting on him to come of age.

My least favourite scene was Loras and Renly because Loras is a whiny emo sulky baby. Seriously? Ugh. Also, Shae. Every single thing to do with her character and her portrayal grates on my last nerve. Also, dislike all Greyjoys not named Balon. Can any of you actually see Alfie Allen pulling off Reek down the road? Can you see him murdering those boys? I don't think he has the range or skill to make that transformation, as an actor.

At least the exchange between Varys and Tyrion was unaltered and spot on.

Edited by kairparavel

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Good episode, best so far this season, which isn't saying too much because this season has been very frustrating with huge character and story divergence.

1. Renly and Loras--I don't understand the complaints. Frankly, of all the sex on the show, these two should have been shown having full-on sex. We, the readers, know Loras loved Renly--his unforgettable line to Sansa after Renly's death--when the sun has set, no candle can replace it. C'mon, of all the characters who deserved an great sex scene, it was these two.

2. Natalie Dormer is excellent as Margaery.

3. Can the writers/producers/directors make Theon and Cersei any more sympathetic? How can we cheer for a redemption story or feel a modicum of sympathy when Cersei has her walk? We need to hate them first, and currently, they could both be protagonists.

4. Francis Magee as Yoren was so excellent. Will miss him.

5. Sad to see all the cuts from the Arya/Gendry story. Wish the battle could have shown both of them being as awesome as they were in the books. Will miss their journey with Lommy and Hot Pie. Still, Maisie Williams and Joe Dempsie are doing a fantastic job.

6. Husband, who is at the beginning of ASoS in reading, looked at me and said why did they make Shae Sansa's maid? I just said it happens later in the book you're reading. They are lots of spoilery things for people who haven't finished reading the series.

7. Loved Alfie Allen's "you gave me away" rant, though it was never in the books. I always wondered when reading why Theon didn't ever say this!

P.S. for those who asked, tiddies are breasts.

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