[Book Spoilers] Ep 203 Discussion

[Ravenhair]

I love all the nerdrage comments, since I've posted so many myself. I already listed the reasons that this episode was the best so far in an incredibly frustrating season. Anyone want to take bets as to which episode will show Jaime and Brienne having sex? With as much character and plot divergence as we've seen, I expect it. BTW, has anyone mentioned the SNL skit about GoT that aired Saturday night?

[Ravenhair]

Did you really hate Theon BEFORE he ends up taking Winterfell? Relax, he may seen like a protagonist now but obviously that will surely change by seasons end. Plus, making him sympathetic to the audience now, will only make it that much worse when people see what he does.

And couldn't agree more how excellent Alfie Allen was in that scene with Balon. His speech was very heartfelt and an amazing addition by the writers to add this.

I didn't have full-on hatred for Theon at that point in the books, but he disgusted me in some ways--his sex with the ship captain's daughter was very "mean," and he was so cocky that he evoked pity and disgust. Then, after what Asha did to him, he was pitiable. Even after all the Winterfell scenes, I felt pity and disgust for him.

It wasn't until much, much later in the books that I started feeling his remorse at not being by Robb's side when he died. I found the Reek chapters to be both physically and emotionally uncomfortable to read, and I was very surprised by that. Normally, I would have expected to feel that Theon was getting was he deserved, but I just didn't feel that way--the Reek chapters were so cringeworthy that I genuinely felt bad for Theon. To get me to that point in the TV show, I need to hate Theon more than I do now.

[ph2586]

I just saw that the season finale is named (as many of us thought so) Valar Morghulis :drool:

[Rockroi]

What on EARTH was this supposed to be? Showing that Sansa is bitchy or what? She isn't bitchy in the books so it's just a complete deviation from her character. It made no sense plotwise and was just totally bewildering. We get time showing Sansa with Shae, but no time showing Sansa with, well anything plot related? Tommen and Myrcella get more interesting comments than Sansa. Come on! It's too bad as well since apart from that I thought the episode was the best this season.

Sansa is a tough character to write; a tough character to act and a tough character to block (ie: story blocking). I agree its a departure from the books, but if they have Shea go wuith Lady Stokeworth, that menas they have to introduce Lady Stokeworth. Seriously- the show is having a hard enough time as it is keeping fans interested in the characters they already have! Also, when you factor in the logistics of the story (think about Shea in the book and Sansa in the book after a certain wedding) and it seems like a natural fit.

I greatly disliked the scene because it contained Shea and Shea makes goodness cry.

Now, this may sound like an excuse but ... Sansa's actual reaction? It was totaly justified and not bitchy. Shea is TERRIBLE at her job (this job not ... not another ... j-job... seriouly- pretend you did not just read that). She is a fucking awful handmaiden. Sansa's reaction is totaly cool. And considering she has had such a terrible day/week/month since her dad got one head shorter, her reaction seems perfectly natural.

I mean I agree its not a great scvene because Sansa is so silent right now but in book terms? She really does not have much to say. Yet.

[SerArthurHeath]

Sansan will have a scene next episode. As will Sansa and Dontos. There aren't that many interactions between Sansa and those characters in the book anyway so stop fretting

[Silmarien]

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Ok that took me a looooong time to figure out on Google translator, glad they have language detection! But I agree!!

[Keegan]

[Mod] Let's be very clear here. Homophobia is NOT tolerated on this board. Consider this a warning[/Mod]

I want to say that the Renly scene bothered me. It is classless like most of the sex scenes in the show. It was put in for some shock value, like the sperm on the mouth.

A recent Martin interview at an easter con had him saying he liked to be subtle. NONE of the sex in the show is subtle.

AND I'm not AFRAID of Homosexuals. I'm AFRAID of people who want to silence objections!

[Merrett Frey]

I want to say that the Renly scene bothered me. It is classless like most of the sex scenes in the show. It was put in for some shock value, like the sperm on the mouth.

A recent Martin interview at an easter con had him saying he liked to be subtle. NONE of the sex in the show is subtle.

AND I'm not AFRAID of Homosexuals. I'm AFRAID of people who want to silence objections!

If classlessness and lack

of subtlety really is your complaint, I feel compelled to point out that a few loving kisses between Renly and Loras was far less graphic and gratuitous than a lot of the actual sex scenes in the show.

As far as Martin's subtlety in the books, well, perhaps you and I aren't reading the same series? Fat pink mast? Myrish swamp? How about Jaime and Cersei going at it next to Tywin's stinky corpse?

Or maybe it's only when it's two men kissing that you would prefer more "subtlety?"

Edited April 18, 2012 by Merrett Frey

[Baitac]

Regarding Sansa: she wasn't incorrect about anything that she said about handmaidens. I felt bad for her because she is absolutely alone in that damned place. Someone knocked at her door and it was like "what now?" "what more do I have to deal with?" Had they not just discussed killing her brother? My head would have exploded with that knock at the door. I don't blame her at all for being sharp.

[Raksha the Demon]

This was my initial reaction to the scene. Then I remembered that in the show they have done very little to show the kind, courteous and caring side of Sansa, unfortunately. Only thing that comes to mind is saving Dontos. On the other hand, they've added scenes where's been petulant and bitchy like her "I don't care" moment to Septa Mordaine in the first season. TV Sansa is very different from Book Sansa. Some of the changes feel pointless, both those scenes where she's bitchy have added nothing to the plot and watching her being petulant is simply boring.

I've noticed, mostly in re-watching Season 1, that Sansa's voice is rather whiny. Which is odd; since I've heard the young actress speak in an interview or two, and she has a quite pleasant voice as herself. I wonder if the directors told her to go for whiny and petulant. Book-Sansa would never be so utterly rude to her Septa; even though Sansa was mean and obnoxious to Arya. I do think TV-Sansa is wasted on altercations with Shae; but then, I really wish we saw less of TV-Shae altogether, the character is not only so different from the book original as to be unrecognizable, she's not very convincing.

Alfie Allen is doing some great stuff as Theon so far this season; I like Brienne; and Tyrion is wonderful.

[Dragon of Valyria]

I thought Sansa was totally bitchy in the books... and it makes sense that she is being hard on Shae. She has no power, no say, she can't speak her mind, so she is going to explode at someone, somewhere. I thought that whole Sansa/Shae scene really showed how hard of a time Sansa is having... she just yelled at her only potential ally.

Eh? Ally?

I thought the scene showed her utter frustration and helplessness. She's surrounded by ruthless murderers all day who beat her and who aim to kill more of her loved ones, and she has to mime being their little dove or worse things happen to her. Her life is this miserable, hopless pantomime. But when she gets back to her room, are her tribulations done? Nope.

We get Shae, who is obviously no true maid. So what is she? Is she a spy, or is she just another jab from the Lannisters to make her life miserable? She can't tell, but she knows that it sucks. There are tears in her eyes the whole time she's yelling at Shae (and for good reason, besides--if you don't know word one about your job, you don't even get hired. That's why people ask for resumes in today's world, and that's why domestic help needed references in the past).

An obviously fake maid is another problem, and is anything but an ally for her.

edit: I do agree that her attitude towards the septa in season 1 is utterly not in keeping with her book character, who always kept her courteses (isn't this what Clegane teases her about?). That said, I don't blame Sophie Turner; her performances are top notch. The range of emotions and expressions she showed, wordlessly, through the dinner scene were remarkable.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dragon of Valyria

[Maroucia]

I just watched this week’s episode.

I really liked it! To be truthful, there were no parts that I didn’t like… All the scenes were great. :P

I thought the Marg/Loras/Renly scene was tasteful and needed, I don’t know why anyone would not like it.

The Sansa/Shae scene didn’t bother me at all, and I’m a big fan of Sansa. She wasn’t a brat, Shae really seemed to be out of place and Sansa saw it right away; did any of you noticed that Shae was eating food from the table while cleaning it? That would surely seems odd to me if I were a Lady and my maid would do that in front of me. I worked in restaurants, and waiters do not eat the leftovers the costumers left on the tables, especially if they are still there; you don’t do that.

Also, Sansa was not in a good mood at all, she was just about to cry when Shae entered.

I liked “Yara”. I’m sure she’ll get the chance to prove herself soon.

My only complaint: not enough Sandor in the last two episodes! :bawl:

Hopefully we will get to see him at least a little next week!

Oh! And Brienne was FANTASTIC!!!

[Silmarien]

Who was the guy that stabbed Lommy Greenhands at the end?

I'd guess Polliver, bc he was the one who took Needle.

[Craven Mummer]

Any chance we see Baric Dondarrion (sp?) before we get UnCat? It would be nice to have some reminder that he and his guys are still out there before they get sprung on us next season. I doubt the non readers will remember Ned sending them after the mountain.

(null)

[Sphinx The Riddle]

I just saw that the season finale is named (as many of us thought so) Valar Morghulis :drool:

:bowdown:

[Brewmaster]

I was thinking the opposite - do you really need Meera? Jojen is a greenseer. He's the one who knows about the Three-Eyed Crow and convinces Bran to go North.

You don't need either Meera or Jojen. Bran has the green dreams now, which makes sense anyway as he is the one to become the last Greenseer. Just give Bran Jojen's green dreams and Bran becomes the one that knows he needs to go North to see the 3 eyed Crow. Makes sense that Bloodraven is calling him up there anyway.

The Reeds aren't neccessary, they mostly provide some colorful backstory about the Children of the Forest, the Harrenhall tournament and clues about Stark history.

Have Osha take Bran, Hodor & Rickon to the Wall. Coldhands then takes Bran and Hodor north from there and Osha takes Rickon east to Skagos, which is due East of the Wall anyway.

[AegonTheUnlikely]

Just a thought-

I hope we get some Tickling done on the way to Harrenhal. Otherwise, perhaps the most gratifying set-up in the entire series gets missed: "Is there gold hidden in the village? Silver? Gems? Do you know where Berric Dondarion is? How many men does he have? How many mounted? How many foot? Is there gold hidden in the village?...

Call me sick- but Arya yelling that as she stabs the Tickler is among my favorite bits. That one's got the wolf's blood for sure.

[Lyanna Stark]

I agree. They should have changed the Sansa/Shae scene to Sansa/Sandor or Sansa/Joffrey. It would have been a lot more meaningful.

I hope they show the scene when Sansa bumps into drunk Sandor when she's coming back from the godswood. I loved that part in the book!

Well, I just wonder if there will be time for a lot of Sansa/Joffrey or Sansa/Sandor since instead we get a good scene illustrating how sad and terrible Sansa feels (the one with Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella) and then it's like "oh btw, in case you were really thick and missed that Sansa was sad and wretched, her she is even more sad and wretched but now with extra bitchiness!"

Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Oh and count me in as one of the people really waiting for the Tickler.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Lyanna Stark

[BlackTalon]

I just saw that the season finale is named (as many of us thought so) Valar Morghulis :drool:

What. I don´t get it ....? Arya getting the coin from Jaquen is nowhere near the end of ACOK, and her leaving Westeros is near the end of ASOS, why would the finale of Season 2 be called Valar Morghulis?

Or has her departure been moved forward? her endless meanderings through the riverlands were not exactly thrilling to read but provide a lot of information, but on the other hand that would mean she completely misses the RW ...?

[BlackTalon]

Sansa is not bitchy in the books, how on earth are you reaching that conclusion? Have you READ the books at all?

Have you? Sansa and Jeyne poole whinnying whenever they see Arya, her telling Arya "It will be a SPLENDID feast, you shan´t be wanted", her opinion of Mycah and od Arya interacting socially with PEASANT SCUM, she doesn´t even go into the stables because they are such terribly smelly places... and you think she isn´t bitchy? Yes, she can be very sweet and pleasant ... to lordlings and princes.