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Can I just give people a bit of advice when you try to make your points?

Please refrain from the always sophmoric "Are we reading the same series/books?" or some derivation thereof. Yes, we are all reading the exact same books and watching the exact same shows. Unless some of you are drinking when you are doing either activity.

Also, It annoys me to no end when people (usually defending themselves) say something along the lines of, "I guess you just don't understand the books/George RR Martin/dramatic programing." This is so condescending and rude. Believe it or not, most of us "get it" or at the very least are trying to get it. Also, it must be remembered that the person making this point has absolutely no more special insight into the topic than anyone else with access to common sense and logic.

Let me put it this way: which is more disrespectful- somebody complaining about the Renly/Loras scene (so protected by the thought police that we cannot even call it a "sex" scene without the raging indignation of others) or somebody saying, "ZOMG! Are we reading the same books? I guess you just don't understand what George RR Martin is accomplishing!"

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First, I'd like to point out that as a book-reader I find the 3rd episode awesome.

In one other thread I've indicated, that I found the first two episodes very well dreicted with more emphasis on the appearance than on the content.

More than I come back to the third episode, I find more amazing cinematographic decisions. Plus the well-made and condensed storylines, that makes it for me the best episode of the second season so far.

However I fond the reaction of the non-book readers arrond me, who watch the show, very interesting. A colleague of mine, despite the fact that he didn't understand many scenes in the first two episodes, finds them more interesting than the third one. He considers the last episode more boring although he needed no extra explanations this time.

Now to the actual point of this post:

- I liked that episode 3 started right from the end of the previous one. I don't find the acting of Kit Harington poor. I find his interactions with LC Mormont very successful. Sam and Gilly were also fine. About the whole cliffhanger and Craster-sneak-out-to-give-away-his-son thing, I find it a bit weird for the book-readers, but very helpful for those, who haven't read the books. So it was not completely pointless imo.

- The scenes with Bran and his wolf-dreams are a great bonus. His interaction with Maester Luwin is pretty well done. And the direwolf looked great as always.

- The Theon part was the highlight of this episode - the acting, the script, the directing - everything works together to show us one conflicted and deep character. In one moment, after the interaction with his father, you kind of feel sorry for him and soon after that, you hate him for burning the warning letter to Robb. I'm so far at the end of ASoS, so I don't particularly like the Greyjoys, but all the scenes with them are great so far.

- Brienne was HUGE! The actress who plays this character works for me. I also feel the chemistry between her and Catelyn. Think those two will make a great tandem. Also Catelyn talking about how Renly is only playing war was nice.

- Renly / Loras / Margaery - the way those characters were introduced was kind of unexpected for me, but their interactions were well made and showed significant features of their characters. I'm fine with the Renly / Loras scene and loved the way Margaery is portrayed in the show. However I think she will look a bit odd next to Joffrey in the third/fourth season.

- Tyrion, oh Tyrion - the master of the Game :) . That was great episode for him - owning the scenes with his presence and his amazing acting. What could I say more... The riddle of Varys was my favourite scene. Love that it was included in the show. One think that bothers me, is that Shae is being too cocky. What does he like about her? The scene with the tree letters was excellent and the "Give-his-manhood-to-the-goats"-exchange was so funny :)

- The scenes with Sansa were very moving. I almost felt her desperation. The actress does some great job here. Congrats!

- And we come to the end with one of my favourites - Arya. The kid is growing really fast. Soon she will be almost as tall as Gendry. The backstory of Yoren was neccessary for the non-book readers imo, not to feel confused when Arya suddenly comes up with her night prayer. Maisie is a great actress: "How do you sleep at night?" That was a fine-performed line, saying it while sharpening her blade ....chilly :) I don't mind that her storyline was condensed, but wellcome this decision. Sorry for Yoren. He was really great.

Can't wait for the next episode! The show is getting better :)

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just off the top of my head, sansa could have told the truth. Joffrey stumbled upon arya and mycha playing with sticks, and decided to whip his sword out and threaten them for no reason other then he could.

Surely they wouldnt have killed mycha at that point.

The truth would have saved Mycah how? The Hound had already been sent off after Mycah, nothing Sansa would have said could have stopped it.

You are also conflating what happened at the river with what happened after. Nothing Sansa could have done at the river could have stopped Joffrey from whipping out his sword, the interrogation came later.

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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just off the top of my head, sansa could have told the truth. Joffrey stumbled upon arya and mycha playing with sticks, and decided to whip his sword out and threaten them for no reason other then he could.

Surely they wouldnt have killed mycha at that point.

eh. Recall the Hedge Knight, where Dunk would have lost both a hand and a foot for attacking Aerion Brightflame, despite it being entirely called for. Laying hands on royalty is pretty much a no-no, regardless of the circumstances.

re: Sansa- it may or may not be out of character to act the way she did. It's believable, at the least. As for Sansa being less than gracious at times- off the top of my head I can think of her getting bratty with her Septa. I actually think putting Shae in as her handmaiden now makes her seem less paranoid when the note shows up under her pillow, and she wonders if it's a set-up.

Edited by AegonTheUnlikely

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Okay. In regards to the Sansa/Shae scene, let me lay this all out for you, bit by bit.

First off, they skipped right past the parts where Shae was kept in the kitchens and with Lollys, because those would have required them to cast more characters. In a series based on books with such an incredibly huge amount of characters, they need to boil it down to those necessary to move the plot forward while still maintaining as much faithfulness to the books as possible. This was also their reasoning for cutting out Jacelyn Bywater and just using Bronn.

Also, in the show, aside from her expression and responses when interacting with Joffrey, we really haven't gotten to see how her position has affected her personally. We don't get to read her stream of consciousness, we don't get to see her thoughts, and we haven't seen her cry into the pillow at night. You may know that happens from reading the books, but I feel the books have clouded your perceptions of the show--someone who hasn't read them won't have seen the despair she's going through.

Yes, they could have written a scene in which she crawls into bed one night and cries herself to sleep. But that would have been airtime with only a single purpose--characterizing Sansa. The scene as it is introduces Shae's new role as handmaiden, shows how ludicrously unprepared she is, which in turn gives logical basis for Sansa to be suspicious. And furthermore, it gives us that characterization of Sansa being overwhelmed and barely able to keep it together in this awful situation she's in. I don't think it makes her look bitchy at all--it makes her look human. If she didn't break down, didn't finally lose her composure once that last straw broke the camel's back (and in a safe environment for her to do so, no less), she would make much less sense as a character.

Beyond this, the show is getting a much richer portrayal of Shae than the books. In the books, you only saw her from Tyrion's perspective, this sweet little sex kitten, precious beyond anything and maybe-possibly returning his feelings of affection. In this scene, we get to see her interacting with someone else, which highlights how she's just sort of entitled and bitchy. It brings to life the "I didn't want to do real people work, so I ran off and started selling my body" sort of mentality she has.

So there. In my opinion, it was a worthwhile scene. And people on these forums actively look for things to complain about in both the books and the show.

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So there. In my opinion, it was a worthwhile scene. And people on these forums actively look for things to complain about in both the books and the show.

Right, so the second*** thing I have complained about for the first 13 episodes is somehow not worthwhile. I'll keep that in mind.

Beyond this, the show is getting a much richer portrayal of Shae than the books. In the books, you only saw her from Tyrion's perspective, this sweet little sex kitten, precious beyond anything and maybe-possibly returning his feelings of affection. In this scene, we get to see her interacting with someone else, which highlights how she's just sort of entitled and bitchy. It brings to life the "I didn't want to do real people work, so I ran off and started selling my body" sort of mentality she has.

Which is by the way not at all like book!Shae, which has been debated to death on the forums. And I am ok with the change to Shae, I can live with that. Sansa being bitchy tho, it changes her character.

*** this and Ros.

Edited by Lyanna Stark

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I'm curious why many people think Show Shae is very different from Book Shae. My memory may be a bit hazy but they seem similar enough. Both are always ready to pleasure Tyrion, which is pretty much her role in the story. There was never much character development on her.

Book Shae also complained when Tyrion wanted to send her to the kitchens, and she was eventually made a handmaiden though it wasn't for Sansa in the book. But since that girl was cut it makes sense to give her to Sansa

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Loved this episode! But there is one thing that bothers me...missing character and forgoten characters. Greatjon, smalljon, Maege Mormont, the Mountain, Beric dondarion and his people, shireen, patchface, the blackfish, edmure tully, hoster tully, black walder, and others that i am forgetting. They have not even mentioned them this season. And im not sure but did i spot Victarion GreyJoy at theons ceronomy?

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One thing i read in the twop-board: Are they implying, that Tyrion decides to use the "services" of the woman he finds with Pycelle, when he puts the second coin on the table? I didn't think so, but apparently one might get the idea....

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Have you? Sansa and Jeyne poole whinnying whenever they see Arya, her telling Arya "It will be a SPLENDID feast, you shan´t be wanted", her opinion of Mycah and od Arya interacting socially with PEASANT SCUM, she doesn´t even go into the stables because they are such terribly smelly places... and you think she isn´t bitchy? Yes, she can be very sweet and pleasant ... to lordlings and princes.

And that's how people act in that society. You're not supposed to be chummy with the child of a baker, especially as a child yourself. For all you know, the boy could be dangerous. It's not bitchy, it's common sense. Let's not have double standards, either. Arya throws food at Sansa in front of the royal retinue and all her father's guests, and I imagine most people cheered.

Ummm.. I'd say until being with Littlefinger in the Vale, she's pretty damn bitchy. It's pretty bitchy to let your sister's little friend take the fall because you have a crush on a prince. And by ally, I don' mean in the way sense. I mean in the sense that she has no friends in KL (at this point), no one to talk to. So instead of seeing Shae as someone who is there to help her out, she yells at her, she totally freaks out.

It's so obvious that she was taking out all her frustrations and anger on this random woman come to see her. It's like when your boss at work yells at you, and then you go home and yell at your spouse. It's deflected anger.

What do you mean "take the fall?" The butcher's boy was dead already, and he was dead no matter who said what. Even Eddard Stark, of all people, points out that what Sansa did was the reasonable thing to do. Moreover, you're forgetting that she's a child in unfamiliar territory with unfamiliar people brought before the king and queen and all their armed force and asked whether or not she's going to call the prince a liar. Perhaps a lot of the fandom was unusually mature and far-thinking when they were 13. I certainly wasn't, and most people I knew at that age weren't either. And to Sansa's credit, she didn't throw Arya under the bus. She refused to. Instead, she said that she couldn't recall. She avoided taking sides and thereby avoided escalating the conflict. And what reward does she get? The scorn of the fandom and a dead direwolf.

As for Shae being her friend, please. I had a pretty rough day today, I'm sure the cashier who sold me my groceries is my friend. And I'm sure if he stood there vacantly, looking at my groceries and wondering whether the price scanner goes in my mouth or goes in my bag, I ought to have smiled and said "there there now, you're supposed to scan the UPC labels." And if I'm ever interviewed for a job, I'll be sure to go there with a blank resume and say "what experience? I was told that you'd tell me how to do my job!"

After all the nonsense Sansa has to go through, surrounded by thugs and murderers all day who beat her if she goes a moment off script, dealing with an utterly incompetent fake maid (who in all likelihood could be a spy) is asking way too much. Bitchy? She was on the verge of tears! Look at her face during the dinner scene and the Shae scene; she's not being spiteful, she's in pain and she's frightened.

And if she had befriended Shae and chatted and gossiped with her as if nothing were wrong, I'd wonder if her screws were loose.

She's not bitchy, she's a scared teenage girl.

Edited by Dragon of Valyria

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You say that now, but again you have no idea whats written for the next few episodes, so like i said before, how about you take a breath, and wait til next week and see how it plays out.

This. I see it everywhere on the boards and I'm annoyed by it too. Fair enough if people compare book scenes with tv scenes, but judging the tv series with book hindsight is ridiculously unfair. It's also the reason I'm willing to cut Ros some slack. We simply do not know what they have in store for her. I haven't been impressed so far but that has nothing to do with the fact that she doesn't exist in the books and is therefore unneccesary from the outset. I'm dissapointed because she needs to develop as a character. If she'll become a substitute/hybrid of other whore characters like alaya(sp?), the whole argument that "screen time can be spent with more important characters" is moot. And even if D&D totally wing it and let Ros become important in another way, I'll feel the same. Dito for shae/sansa. We don't know the future of the series so we can't dismiss certain decisions without having seen the entire season.

Edited by Dragon greyscale

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Which is by the way not at all like book! Shae, which has been debated to death on the forums. And I am ok with the change to Shae, I can live with that. Sansa being bitchy tho, it changes her character.

I don't think Shae's character is very different from the book. I feel like the main difference is that in the book, she was only ever viewed from Tyrion's eyes, who was fooling himself into falling in love with her. TV-Shae is consistent with Shae as she is revealed at the end of ASoS, a selfish, average whore.

And the rest of my post spent a lot of time trying to demonstrate that Sansa isn't being bitchy in this scene. She's on the verge of tears, her life is a miserable hell, when she comes home to find that her handmaiden is inexplicably lacking in any knowledge about her job (something totally unheard of), she finally just breaks down because it's all too much. The scene served to give us a better perception of both characters involved, as well as introducing a resolution to the argument over Shae's disguise. It served better than a night-crying scene would have, and makes up for the absence of internal narrative, which is a very large part of Sansa's characterization, since she needs to prevent her true nature from being read by anyone around her.

It was a good scene.

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This is what she says as she slits the throat of the gatehouse guard

I am guessing, hope it is this, it comes from the scene where Arya last sees Jaqen and he is telling her what to say.

I think he even makes her repeat it.

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One thing i read in the twop-board: Are they implying, that Tyrion decides to use the "services" of the woman he finds with Pycelle, when he puts the second coin on the table? I didn't think so, but apparently one might get the idea....

The way I interpreted it was that he thought she deserved extra money for having to do it with an OLD man like Pycelle.

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So far this episode is by far my favorite. Seeing Theon's breakdown was great, but I find myself feeling sorry for him a lot more than I thought I would. I never really got a grasp on how large Brienne was and her scene with Renly and Cat was awesome.

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Just saw it.

So the series is... decent, at least so far. Unfortunately, I find myself experiencing the same problem I had with the Harry Potter series -- the way I imagine things seem to differ wildly from David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. I like some of the changes, but Ros? A Mediterranean King's Landing? A really awful accent on Dinklage? Stannis being so well cast but so awfully one-note?

It feels as if they've taken everything that made Martin's creation so wonderful to walk and now do -- and try -- everything they possibly can to put their own stamp on it. I'm not knocking them specifically, but the source material is sometimes the best way to go. It just is.

And where are the bannermen? Why is it that we never see the men that actually fight for Stannis? Maybe it's my fickle self... but maybe I'm right. We'll see.

Here's hoping for a better fourth episode.

Edited by The Second Hand

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I cannot stop thinking about this episode. I think it may be my favorite not only, of this season but the entire series so far. Little nuances keep coming to my mind at such random times. I was saddened to hear that some non-book readers were bored because in their words "there wasnt' any of the blond girl." I'm wondering how much many who haven't read the books are really reacting to the Theon story and if they GET it. I mean, to us it's just the beginning of Theon's incredible journey. Also, Tyrion and Varys are perfection together I cannot get enough of them. Margaery Tyrell is very spicy! It's funny when I first heard about Natalie Dormer I immediately pictured her as playing Asha Greyjoy solely based on how we meet her. I was a fan of hers on The Tudors where she played Anne Boleyn, but her interpretation of Margaery is intriguing. I supposed in the books we didn't get an extreme insight into Margaery's drive just other people's interpretation of her. But still. AMAZING!

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What I got from the Sansa/Shae scene was simply that, since she has to bottle up her true feelings in front of everyone else, she's taking her anger out on a handmaiden. It's also a good lead into the Sansa-Tyrion marriage.

That was a lot of my read on it too. Although I was thinking more along the lines of Sansa snapping (in a somewhat snippy teenage way) at the piled-and-piled-on humiliation at the hands of Cersei. Cersei stuck the knife in at dinner repeatedly and as an additional twist sends Sansa a completely incompetent servant who is likely a spy and is already treating Sansa badly.

I didn't think the scene was really necessary - we already knew that Sansa was being badly treated. The "mirror" shot - what have I become, I look so far away like my dreams, etc. - would have probably been fine. Shae could have been "hired" at at any time before the Purple Wedding.

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