Trials of the Faith

[Silent_Hero]

The sand snakes will sow discord and ruin, the one that was sent to the high septon( Tyene?) will somehow get Margaery found guilty or something.

[Maester Jalden]

I think Cleagan aka Strong will win the trail by battle, but with GRRM there has to be a twist. The faith and public would obviously recognize another giant knight hanging around kings landing, not to mention when Dorne hears of this whole resurected Cleagan thing they will go feudal. I think the twist will be after the battle it will be required for Strong to remove his helmet, and then he either refuses casting doubt into everyones mind about the true fate of Gregor Cleagan, or he will be revealed for the monstrosity that he is, and the trail by battle will be annulled, the faith would then insist upon a trial by faith instead.

And I just don't see any strong enough evidence for Marge to actually be convicted.

Anyways just my two cents worth of incite.

[BreakinTheWall]

Before I start replying to the main topic, I would like to say this is my very first post! Rock on!

Alright, so my opinion is the Faith's champion (maybe Lancel or Loras, who knows) will be utterly crushed by Robert Strong. If I'm right, the twist is that in his dying gasp the aforesaid champion shall (by either luck or skill) dislodge Robert's helm, only to reveal "darkness and thick black blood", thus showing Westeros (and the Faith) what an abobination UnGregor really is... Ironically this would look pretty much like The Mountain's duel against The Red Viper!

At this point, I expect the Faith to rise against the Iron Throne for such blasphemies. I guess it would also root the Hound out of his place hiding (if he's effectively still alive on Quiet Isle), for an epic (and a tiny bit cheesy) Clegane duel!

Thoughts?

P.S. Sorry for spelling errors, english isn't my first language.

[kwvapor]

Before I start replying to the main topic, I would like to say this is my very first post! Rock on!

Alright, so my opinion is the Faith's champion (maybe Lancel or Loras, who knows) will be utterly crushed by Robert Strong. If I'm right, the twist is that in his dying gasp the aforesaid champion shall (by either luck or skill) dislodge Robert's helm, only to reveal "darkness and thick black blood", thus showing Westeros (and the Faith) what an abobination UnGregor really is... Ironically this would look pretty much like The Mountain's duel against The Red Viper!

At this point, I expect the Faith to rise against the Iron Throne for such blasphemies. I guess it would also root the Hound out of his place hiding (if he's effectively still alive on Quiet Isle), for an epic (and a tiny bit cheesy) Clegane duel!

Thoughts?

P.S. Sorry for spelling errors, english isn't my first language.

The problem with that is that would make Cersei defenseless, unless the Tyrells come to her defense. Or Cersei and the administration in general can say "OMG monster" and then have a new champion. Qyburn can become a scrap-goat?

I don't see Cersei going down so easily. She still have one last lap to go crazy upon everyone in her world.

The key for me is this struggle in KL can't end in a quick victory for Tyrells or Lannisters. Something unexpect will happened as a result of the hand's death, the arrival of Sands sister(s) and the princess, Cersei's new found faith in the Seven, the arrival of an unexpected champion.

Lancel can't fight right? He was promoted cause he slept with Cersei.

Loras just got heavily injured.

I said it already but a shocking development might be Faith+Cersei joining hands. That might be the only method for Cersei to escape her short-term predicament. Does he have to show his face?

[BreakinTheWall]

I guess she just could feign ignorance... Or she could go on with the process (with Qyburn's help) and surround herself with a squad of Undead champions, thus assuring her own protection and letting other lords serve her out of fear of her newfound (unholy) power.

All hail Cersei, the Witch Queen... though, admittedly, it doesn't feel much like GRRM...

As for Lancel, I don't really get why he couldn't fight... Isn't fighting against Cersei the best way to redeem himself?

Concerning Loras, I should have been more specific, there are many speculations (on this forum) that he simply isn't injured at all and that it was yet another Tyrell's intrigue!

You think she won't go down so easily? I wonder how she even managed to get this far! I guess she'll end up an unlucky "volunteer" for Qyburn's experiments. Now that would be poetic justice!

Why in the world would the High Sparrow end up working with Cersei? That doesn't sound very unyielding to me. I've always assumed the High Sparrow was king of a very pious version of Stannis. Seriously, could you see Stannis working with Cersei?

OK, it is time for a little bit of crackpoting around: should (don't ask me how) UnGregor wander off north (like way north), would he instantly fall under the Others' control (as he sure seems to be wight-related)?

[NewJeffCT]

So far, the trials by combat have proven to actually "work" in the sense that

(1) Tyrion was really not the one behind the attempt on Bran, and Bronn won that combat for him.

(2) Tyrion did poison Joff, so when the Red Viper lost, it was also accurate

(3) Sandor Clegane won his combat after being accused of things done by his brother (if I recall). He did kill Mycah, but that was on orders from Joffrey, so

We know Cersei is guilty, so does the trial work and Ser Robert Strong loses? Or, does GRRM throw us a curveball and have Strong win?

[kwvapor]

So far, the trials by combat have proven to actually "work" in the sense that

(2) Tyrion did poison Joff, so when the Red Viper lost, it was also accurate

I'm sorry but Tyrion was not the one who poison Joff.

I don't want to spoil it for you, if you missed it, you can do a reread. So your case of trial by battle, somehow, turning out to results that honors justice does not carry.

Why in the world would the High Sparrow end up working with Cersei? That doesn't sound very unyielding to me. I've always assumed the High Sparrow was king of a very pious version of Stannis. Seriously, could you see Stannis working with Cersei?

You may be right, how can the Faith end up with Cersei.

In my mind, I just see Cersei capable of fooling everyone like Lancel (he does it from the heart). Lancel also commits unholy acts yet can serve the Faith and go unpunished. Cersei did her punishment, the walk of shame, what's the point of having the walk of shame, if then later she is punished more on top of that? I think now, she'll be reborn like Lancel, although it'd be all a mask.

She "understands" what the Faith wants from her now, since she's been through it. I think, she'll give them their dog and pony show.

That's just my thought process. The Faith welcomes all believers, it's just you got to show it, they don't turn you away because you have sinned, repent and join us.

I thought it really likely when I was reading that this was the next development but who knows.

[Fragile Bird]

You may be right, how can the Faith end up with Cersei

In my mind, I just see Cersei capable of fooling everyone like Lancel (he does it from the heart). Lancel also commits unholy acts yet can serve the Faith and go unpunished. Cersei did her punishment, the walk of shame, what's the point of having the walk of shame, if then later she is punished more on top of that? I think now, she'll be reborn like Lancel, although it'd be all a mask.

She "understands" what the Faith wants from her now, since she's been through it. I think, she'll give them their dog and pony show.

That's just my thought process. The Faith welcomes all believers, it's just you got to show it, they don't turn you away because you have sinned, repent and join us.

I thought it really likely when I was reading that this was the next development but who knows.

Lancel confessed and has taken guidance from septons. He also punished himself (sounds like self flagellation and starvation are his things). Oh, and he ended his marriage, so you can add celibacy to the list of punishments. Wait til it comes out that Cersei lied to the High Septon. Then the stuff will hit the fan.

[Dread Pirate Euron]

Does anyone else think that the High Septon isn't long for this world? Cersei isn't usually one to let things slide and the Tyrells will not accept Maeg being found guilty and executed.

[SeanF]

The sand snakes will sow discord and ruin, the one that was sent to the high septon( Tyene?) will somehow get Margaery found guilty or something.

I imagine Tyene will seek to cause trouble, for both Margaery and Cersei.

I still can't see Margaery being executed with 70,000 of her father's men sharpening their swords in the vicinity. And, I doubt if Cersei's story is done yet.

[ormada]

Avid reader here, but first ever post! (My burning hatred for Cersei is really the impetus here...)

A few questions: won't the Tyrells or the Faith be even a little bit curious as to where Robert Strong came from? If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't simply condone letting a broken, psychotic Cersei select an undead mystery champion to fight on her behalf. I'm thinking that some kind of serious inquiry as to his identity would be made. After all, I'm hesitant to believe that the respective champions (Lancel, Hound, Loras, etc.) would simply jump into the ring with this dude (although Sandor might have a bone to pick, and we've seen how "honor" can make smart people do dumb things")

Regardless, I could really die happily if Cersei was "given" to Qyburn. She deserves her kumuppins. Illogical I know, but a man can dream, right?

[Cerulean]

Avid reader here, but first ever post! (My burning hatred for Cersei is really the impetus here...)

A few questions: won't the Tyrells or the Faith be even a little bit curious as to where Robert Strong came from? If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't simply condone letting a broken, psychotic Cersei select an undead mystery champion to fight on her behalf. I'm thinking that some kind of serious inquiry as to his identity would be made. After all, I'm hesitant to believe that the respective champions (Lancel, Hound, Loras, etc.) would simply jump into the ring with this dude (although Sandor might have a bone to pick, and we've seen how "honor" can make smart people do dumb things")

Regardless, I could really die happily if Cersei was "given" to Qyburn. She deserves her kumuppins. Illogical I know, but a man can dream, right?

Welcome and thanks for the post! As you can see, I don't post a lot here myself, though I am constantly lurking.

You raise a point I had often considered myself - Why would the Faith allow Strong to champion Cersei?

A couple things go into Knighthood, as we have seen previously in the books, through memories and other associations. When Knighted, the new Sers must stand a vigil. In addition to this, to be named to the Kingsguard, isn't there some sort of ceremony? How can some unknown knight be allowed on the Kingsguard? Oh, wait. Cersei already made way for that tantamount precedent with her appointment of a Kettleblack.

I would hope that an inquiry would be made, especially considering that he came from Qyburn, the attainted, chainless maester. This is an interesting theory, and with the High Septon being so pious, he may very well have something to say.

Although it would be beautiful to see Cersei in the hands of Qyburn, I doubt that will happen. I can see her left as the last (known) scion of House Lannister, broken, humiliated and friendless. You saw how quickly Taena abandoned her at the first sign of trouble. (It would be kind of sweet to see Tyrion come back, take up Lordship of Casterly Rock, and take Cersei under his "protection" though.)

I do wonder what Cersei will do next. With Kevan Lannister now dead, the only voice of reason left in the capital is gone. It is down to Pycelle and Varys, and the Tyrells - and we know who the Tyrells, and Varys are rooting for.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Oh wow I never thought about Maegery Tyrell. I suppose it is possible that Tyene may somehow influence the outcome of her trial but I don't think thats gonna happen. Dorne doesn't have any serious beef against House Tyrell.

Their main issue lies with the Lannisters. If it were Cersei on trial then definitely.

I'm hoping the trials are dealt with within the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the book so we can move on and see what becomes of the 2 "Queens".

[jlk7e]

A few questions: won't the Tyrells or the Faith be even a little bit curious as to where Robert Strong came from? If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't simply condone letting a broken, psychotic Cersei select an undead mystery champion to fight on her behalf. I'm thinking that some kind of serious inquiry as to his identity would be made. After all, I'm hesitant to believe that the respective champions (Lancel, Hound, Loras, etc.) would simply jump into the ring with this dude (although Sandor might have a bone to pick, and we've seen how "honor" can make smart people do dumb things")

Well, here's what we have to go on so far, from ADWD 948-949:

"If there was wealth on Dragonstone, Stannis would have found it," [ser Kevan] declared. "Let us move along, my lords. We have two queens to try for high treason, you may recall. My niece has elected trial by battle, she informs me. Ser Robert Strong will champion her."

"The silent giant." Lord Randyll grimaced

"Tell me, ser, where did this man come from?" demanded Mace Tyrell. "Why have we never heard his name before? He does not speak, he will not show his face, he is never seen without his armor. Do we know for a certainty that hs is even a knight?"

We do not even know if he's alive. Meryn Trant claimed that Strong took neither food nor drink, and Boros Blount went so far as to say he had never seen the man use the privy. Why should he? Dead men do not shit. Kevan Lannister had a strong suspicion of just who this Ser Robert really was beneath that gleaming white armor. A suspicion that Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly no doubt shared. Whatever the face hidden behind Strong's helm, it must remain hidden for now. The silent giant was his niece's only hope. And pray that he is as formidable as he appears.

But Mace Tyrell could not seem to see beyond the threat to his own daughter. "His Grace named Ser Robert to the Kingsguard," Ser Kevan reminded him, "and Qyburn vouches for the man as well. Be that as it may, we need Ser Robert to prevail, my lords. If my niece is proved guilty of these treasons, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. If Tommen ceases to be a king, Margaery will cease to be a queen."

So, basically, Kevan believes that Tyrell suspects that Strong is Gregor Clegane, but it is in the Tyrells' interest for Cersei to win her trial - if Cersei is guilty, than Tommen is illegitimate, and the Tyrell power dissolves as much as the Lannister. Which is why Loras is certainly not going to be the Faith's champion, among other reasons.

[Mister Rayder]

There's something here that has always bothered me, Margery can dodge the bullet and this hole trial of faith in a pretty easy way, the only thing she needs to say is:

"I'm not a virgin because i fucked Renly, i lied to the Lannisters to secure my marriage and an alliance, bla, bla, bla"

Done.

[Silent_Hero]

There's something here that has always bothered me, Margery can dodge the bullet and this hole trial of faith in a pretty easy way, the only thing she needs to say is:

"I'm not a virgin because i fucked Renly, i lied to the Lannisters to secure my marriage and an alliance, bla, bla, bla"

Done.

Thing is Margaery was sold as being a Virgin, so if she's found out as not a Virgin that looks bad on her family and I can't remember but I think the marriage between her and joff only worked because she Is supposedly a virgin or something

[Malpka]

I must say, I am quite sure Margery will be guilty - whole situation is to similar to Nesle tower affair, even the name Margaret - Margery.

As for who will take d'Aunays role, my bet will be on Redwyne brothers. D'Aunays were quite powerful family - that would be fitting for House Redwyne and House Tyrel, Randyl however doesn't have enough sons at court to fit.

[FateLess]

Recently finished DwD. I have the utmost regard for this forum given the quality of discussions. As well thought out the theories presented here may be, I notice the presence of Lord Varys in King's Landing is largely ignored. He seems to be a key player (as always!) here in making sure that the rift between the Tyrells and the Lannisters only grows wider (Ref. Epilogue, DwD.) If Varys truly wants for Aegon to take the Iron Throne he must not let the Tyrells be "happy" with Margery's trial and be off to take Storm's End.

The funny thing is the only alive Lannister player in King's Landing despises the Tyrells and fails to realize that the only reason they remain in power is because of the Tyrells. Cersei appears to be more focused on avenging her captivity and saving her own skin while failing to see the larger game afoot here. It would be very interesting to see how things go with Mace Tyrell as the Hand and Cersei attempting to retake the position of the regent, while all of this is watched over by Lord Varys ensuring King's Landing is ripe for conquest by the Golden Company and possibly Dorne.

Therefore, I am of the opinion that in order for Lord Varys to succeed, he would have to conspire to save Cersie and have Margery proven guilty. Driving Tyrells against the Lannisters, consequently, leaving Cersei "naked" once again :)

[Babeldygob]

So far, the trials by combat have proven to actually "work" in the sense that

(1) Tyrion was really not the one behind the attempt on Bran, and Bronn won that combat for him.

(2) Tyrion did poison Joff, so when the Red Viper lost, it was also accurate

(3) Sandor Clegane won his combat after being accused of things done by his brother (if I recall). He did kill Mycah, but that was on orders from Joffrey, so

We know Cersei is guilty, so does the trial work and Ser Robert Strong loses? Or, does GRRM throw us a curveball and have Strong win?

Robert Strong is definitely an ungodly creature, so I don't think it's far-fetched that he wins.

I wanna see The Hound 2.0 vs. Gregor 2.0

The Hound might beat him, because he would definitely recognize his own brother, no matter how much helmets he has or how little he can speak. The Hound will give him like a finishing blow or something and everyone expects Gregor to die, but then he rises again and again and again, being an unstoppable killing machine...

The Faith won't think this is good at all, but Cersei might get out of it, if she claims that the seven make him rise again and again.

[Fragile Bird]

Recently finished DwD. I have the utmost regard for this forum given the quality of discussions. As well thought out the theories presented here may be, I notice the presence of Lord Varys in King's Landing is largely ignored. He seems to be a key player (as always!) here in making sure that the rift between the Tyrells and the Lannisters only grows wider (Ref. Epilogue, DwD.) If Varys truly wants for Aegon to take the Iron Throne he must not let the Tyrells be "happy" with Margery's trial and be off to take Storm's End.

The funny thing is the only alive Lannister player in King's Landing despises the Tyrells and fails to realize that the only reason they remain in power is because of the Tyrells. Cersei appears to be more focused on avenging her captivity and saving her own skin while failing to see the larger game afoot here. It would be very interesting to see how things go with Mace Tyrell as the Hand and Cersei attempting to retake the position of the regent, while all of this is watched over by Lord Varys ensuring King's Landing is ripe for conquest by the Golden Company and possibly Dorne.

Therefore, I am of the opinion that in order for Lord Varys to succeed, he would have to conspire to save Cersie and have Margery proven guilty. Driving Tyrells against the Lannisters, consequently, leaving Cersei "naked" once again :)

Hi FateLess! First Post! Welcome to Westeros, please contribute lots of thoughts, you're obviously thinking about the books, and opinions make the world go round!