Trials of the Faith

[Batman]

They might suspect, or even know, but they cannot prove it. Remember him screaming a lot and then sending "his"l skull to Dorne

In a world where winter lasts years, dragons used to roam the earth and there is a substance like wildfire available, I just assume a man can live without a head! Nothing is as it seems!

[Dolorous Ali]

In a world where winter lasts years, dragons used to roam the earth and there is a substance like wildfire available, I just assume a man can live without a head! Nothing is as it seems!

I didn't say he's dead, of course he's alive! I meant that people in that world think he's dead. Cersei will take care to make it remain secret, because Dorne could be very very upset if they have proof that he's alive, even more than they're now. Cersei won't risk it because they have Myrcella.

[Batman]

I didn't say he's dead, of course he's alive! I meant that people in that world think he's dead. Cersei will take care to make it remain secret, because Dorne could be very very upset if they have proof that he's alive, even more than they're now. Cersei won't risk it because they have Myrcella.

I know what you meant, I was just saying that if I lived in that world and was a member of the faith I would just naturally assume Gregor was alive, Kevan did. Nothing is as it seems!

[Dolorous Ali]

I know what you meant, I was just saying that if I lived in that world and was a member of the faith I would just naturally assume Gregor was alive, Kevan did. Nothing is as it seems!

If you live in a world where winter last years, and dragons used to roam the world, you would feel that this is normal and anything else is not normal. Kevan was in the red keep, knew much more about things happening there than the sparrows. He had reports about him, and anyone can become a little suspicious after that deal with Cersei. BTW, I don't remember him being sure that Strong is Gregor. Though that might just be my poor memory.

[Batman]

If you live in a world where winter last years, and dragons used to roam the world, you would feel that this is normal and anything else is not normal. Kevan was in the red keep, knew much more about things happening there than the sparrows. He had reports about him, and anyone can become a little suspicious after that deal with Cersei. BTW, I don't remember him being sure that Strong is Gregor. Though that might just be my poor memory.

Everything your saying is fair, what I am saying is that I would be so paranoid that I would probably end up in an asylum. "HE GREGOR! I SWEAR, HE HAS NO HEAD AND HE'S GREGOR! AND RENLY WAS KILLED BY A SHADOW PUSSY!" Yeah I would be pretty insane if I lived in Westeros

[Realm's piece]

Hi all, several of the posts seem to say Varys will ensure Lannister v Tyrell v whoever else who is not part of Varys' goals will undermine each other. How influential can Varys be behind the scenes? I assume Varys will have to do this behind the scenes because after helping Tyrion escape he is unlikely to be welcomed to the council/ governing westeros? Or will he try to ingratiate himself one of the families or reveal he was forced by Jamie Lannister to release Tyrion or lie about the circumstances of his absence from KL? Apologies if this is off topic and should be in a separate thread.

[Babeldygob]

I think Cersei will win her battle, she will see Robert Strong's power, maybe ally with The Faith and use Robert Strong to destroy her enemies. She will instill fear in her enemies with her headless, invincible, silent knight just the way she's always dreamed of before she gets killed by Jaime(who will get his Golden Hand animated by Thoros of Myr, making the hand only able to fight against evil(aka Robert Strong)).

[FateLess]

Hi all, several of the posts seem to say Varys will ensure Lannister v Tyrell v whoever else who is not part of Varys' goals will undermine each other. How influential can Varys be behind the scenes? I assume Varys will have to do this behind the scenes because after helping Tyrion escape he is unlikely to be welcomed to the council/ governing westeros? Or will he try to ingratiate himself one of the families or reveal he was forced by Jamie Lannister to release Tyrion or lie about the circumstances of his absence from KL? Apologies if this is off topic and should be in a separate thread.

In my opinion, the events of King's Landing are entwined together and heavily interdependent, hence it is only fitting that the threads will be entwined to a certain degree as well.

As for Lord Varys' influence on the politics of KL, the epilogue of A Dance with Dragons was a huge reveal. The fact that all the major players of the game of thrones (Tywin Lannister, Littlefinger, Lord Varys, Queen of Thorns, etc.) are either dead or away from KL, pretty much forces the possibility of all these players having their own spying sources at court, A few instances:

Qyburn shows fierce loyalty to Cersei and is a reputed necromancer (Ref. Appendix, aDwD), after Varys' exit, he is able perform his duties well enough as the Master of Whisperers through Varys' sources, the little birds. A character very likely to be someone's inside guy. Quite possibly Varys'.

Taena Merryweather came to KL as a part of the Highgarden camp, befriends Cersei, beds her, is in on most of her secrets. Finally, when Taena and Cersei visit the Holy Septon, Taena walks right out of the Great Sept of Baelor whereas the Queen Regent Cersei Lannister and Queen Margaery Tyrell are captured! Taena "knew everything" in Cersei's own words. Yet, safely flees KL with her husband. She's working for Tyrells, Martells, Littlefinger or Lord Varys? All very Intriguing.

Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark, fought beside Stannis in the Battle of Blackwater (Awesome episode last Sunday!) and was subsequently captured. Pardoned upon bending the knee to King Joffrey; he was granted a seat on King Tommen's small council for the Master of Ships. Aurane absconds with the entire newly built fleet upon Cersei's arrest, to what end is debatable.

Knowing GRRM, above are but a few character who have a lot more to them than we know and are likely to be anybody's catspaw. Also, it seems unlikely that Varys, being the devious eunuch he is, has been idle and in hiding throughout the events of aFfC and aDwD.

With Ser Kevan Lannister's and Grandmaester Pycelle's murder, Varys has left KL in a state of utter turmoil and chaos. I really think that the epilogue of aDwD was a big foreshadowing of the events to come in The Winds of Winter.

Theories? Counter-theories? Any misplaced/missing facts? Discuss, guys!

:)

[Dolorous Ali]

All you guys mentioned reasonable stuff. Though we don't know Varys's true power and control over things. If Varys has a great power, then Cersei would be proven not guilty but not Margery; so that Tyrell's bond with the Lannisters would be broken so that Aegon would have a easier time conquering (if it's what Varys wants). Though there is LF to play his part.

Also, there are a lot of Tyrell/Tarly in KL, they could even take the throne for themselves, it's not that hard. The plot is just so twisted. Looking at different angles would have a different but reasonable results. It just makes me so depressed that I have to wait for ages to find out.

[Babeldygob]

There is a theory Varys is a FM and that he is Qyburn. The basis for this is that Qyburn seemed to be very able and apt at Varys' former job as Master of Whisperers, even though it mustn't have been easy for Varys.

[FateLess]

All you guys mentioned reasonable stuff. Though we don't know Varys's true power and control over things. If Varys has a great power, then Cersei would be proven not guilty but not Margery; so that Tyrell's bond with the Lannisters would be broken so that Aegon would have a easier time conquering (if it's what Varys wants). Though there is LF to play his part.

Also, there are a lot of Tyrell/Tarly in KL, they could even take the throne for themselves, it's not that hard. The plot is just so twisted. Looking at different angles would have a different but reasonable results. It just makes me so depressed that I have to wait for ages to find out.

Yeah! The wait for The Winds of Winter is just dreadful! Hell even the wait for A Dance with Dragons paperback edition is ridiculous; I am really hoping it's a Cersei chapter for the tWoW preview!

Agree. Margaery losing would be certainly very interesting. However, thanks to Varys, the Small Council has just been spared two Lannisters, namely Kevan Lannister and Pycelle and is a clear Tyrell majority after aDwD. Westeros needs a Regent and quite agreeably Mace Tyrell will assume that office. Therefore, I believe Mace won't let Margaery be trailed. What do you think?

[gogorath]

Cersei: The Hound is the Faith's champion and pwns Gregor OR Qyburn betrays Cersei. It's been a while since we've had a major character death.

The Hound, currently living with Monks, coming back to defend the Faith and get a chance to crush his brother, who was so insensitive to die by someone else's hand? That'd be awesome. So it will probably happen but the Hound lose.

I would love to see the Faith go for a full on coup.

[sillent]

The only reason I think Cersei would live regardless of how her trial by combat goes is that her children have not yet died and I still believe in that prophecy.

In terms of the Clegane brothers having a fight, if that happens I dont think it will be for a while, as Sandor is still pretty badly injured. If the faith were to end up in war against one of these guys (which wouldn't be a stretch since theres a ton of tension brewing), I'm guessing thats the point Sandor would take up arms again.

[Istari]

As epic as that would be (a Sandor/Gregor battle), I think it would be unlikely. The faith's first priority, with respect to Sandor, is to heal him. Also, the Faith wouldn't condone kinslaying.

I do think Cersei will win though - Sillent referenced the prophecy, which is arguably a strong indication that her story arc doesn't end with this trial....

Actually, that leads me to a question: If Cercei looses the trial what would become of her? Would she be sentenced to death? Or just imprisoned?

[Col. Hans Landa]

Well with the imminent arrival of Aegon (whether he is real or fake), Varys is starting to make bolder and bolder moves to create chaos in the capital, namely assassinating Kevan and Pycelle. Those two were the last voices of reason to Cersei in King's Landing. I can see Varys doing whatever he can to create the make sure Cersei comes back into power and, to make matters more hectic, have Maragery be found guilty by the Faith.

It would seen Cersei has swiftly moved from player to puppet in the game. Even Littlefinger, in a convo with Alyane, laments on how he wishes Cersei would reign longer and thrive on the ensueing chaos. in her state of mind right now (i think she has snapped a bit) combined with a potential break-up between Lannister and Tyrell would be the perfect pretext for Aegon to break the scene in Westeros. All it would take is a few whispers from Varys and Cersei is back as regent .

On the topic of Robert Strong, he will probably pancake anybody the Faith dares send at him. It looks like Lancel is the most likely candidate, otherwise why would they have the whole set-up of him becoming pious and moving to Kings Landing. However awesome it would be to see gravedigging Sandor go mano-a-mano against his undead brother, Istari said it right.

Another reason i think Cersei will win is that who will take immediate power if Cersei loses. Tommen becomes questionable which also makes Maragery not a queen. I love gogoraths idea of a Faith coup but Varys would probably do everything in his power to not have the Faith be in control when Aegon comes to take the capitol. Invader vs. the religion of Westeros doesnt bode very well for the Invader.

But who knows, maybe im overestimating Varys' power haha. But judging from what we've seen out of him and Illiryo before, rigging a few Faith trials doesn't seem too difficult

[Dolorous Ali]

Yeah! The wait for The Winds of Winter is just dreadful! Hell even the wait for A Dance with Dragons paperback edition is ridiculous; I am really hoping it's a Cersei chapter for the tWoW preview!

Agree. Margaery losing would be certainly very interesting. However, thanks to Varys, the Small Council has just been spared two Lannisters, namely Kevan Lannister and Pycelle and is a clear Tyrell majority after aDwD. Westeros needs a Regent and quite agreeably Mace Tyrell will assume that office. Therefore, I believe Mace won't let Margaery be trailed. What do you think?

That's why I said we should know Varys's power before we can predict. Of course Mace doesn't want Margaery to be found guilty, and would do everything to stop it. But as we have read, Varys doesn't like the Tyrell - Lannister bond, so he can provide some evidence through someone to make her guilty. If he's an FM (I don't think he is), he could do this without any problem. If Margaery is found guilty, then the Tyrells will either stay in KL by force or get back home and maybe even join forces with Aegon. Might be during all this, Tommen dies! Who knows?

[Golden Twin]

Very interesting points raised.

There is a theory Varys is a FM and that he is Qyburn. The basis for this is that Qyburn seemed to be very able and apt at Varys' former job as Master of Whisperers, even though it mustn't have been easy for Varys.

I highly doubt that Varys is Quburn. It is established that Varys was very good at changing appearances, it would be very hard to fool a whole bunch of people including the Queen and the council. It is my belief that the spies that worked for Varys are merely feeding Qyburn the info that Varys wants to feed. Also remember that Qyburn came to KL with Jaime and healed his hand. The only way that Varys is Qyburn is if he is a FM. Again pretty much impossible.

The only reason I think Cersei would live regardless of how her trial by combat goes is that her children have not yet died and I still believe in that prophecy.

In terms of the Clegane brothers having a fight, if that happens I dont think it will be for a while, as Sandor is still pretty badly injured. If the faith were to end up in war against one of these guys (which wouldn't be a stretch since theres a ton of tension brewing), I'm guessing thats the point Sandor would take up arms again.

Oh the good prophecy. Honestly I think GRRM has purposefully made that ambiguous. At least some part of all the prophecies have a double meaning. Anyway, yes I agree that Sandor being the Faith's champion is unlikely. They would most likely go with a Warrior's Son. Sandor was after all a Knight of the Kingsguard.

[LordDolorousEdd]

fire kills wrights which are undead, Strong is an undead, Sandor is scared of fire it could be interesting if sandor is alive or undead

[Dolorous Ali]

@LordDolorousEdd: there are different types of undead. The undead people by the red priests have no problem with fire. They like it actually, take Beric Dondarion. I'm not saying it doesn't kill them at all, I'm saying it is as dangerous for the undead as it is for the normal people. The way fire kills wights is different. They are kinda flammable. A little fire and completely destroyed. Not the same with Dondarion. we first have to know what did Qyburn do to him and what methods he used. Might be he never even died, might be used red priest methods, or even Others' methods. Sorry about not quoting, doesn't work on iPad.

[LordDolorousEdd]

@LordDolorousEdd: there are different types of undead. The undead people by the red priests have no problem with fire. They like it actually, take Beric Dondarion. I'm not saying it doesn't kill them at all, I'm saying it is as dangerous for the undead as it is for the normal people. The way fire kills wights is different. They are kinda flammable. A little fire and completely destroyed. Not the same with Dondarion. we first have to know what did Qyburn do to him and what methods he used. Might be he never even died, might be used red priest methods, or even Others' methods. Sorry about not quoting, doesn't work on iPad.

I get what you are saying and I agree. although I am sure that Qyburn is not using the red priest method. I only think that Strong will be venerable to fire if it is Sandor who he has to fight. It is likly that Quburn has used an until now unseen form of resurrection more which he learned from his experiments.