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[Book spoilers] Theon's letter


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They already took liberties with Cersei in season one, when she tells Ned Stark how she wanted Robert, and her utter disappointment at being called Lyanna in her wedding bed. we all know she wanted Rhaegar (in the books). And Robert and she share that brief moment of nostalgic laughter in one scene of regrets. And she's positively sympathetic with Catelyn when she's talking about losing her first child (Robert's child), whereas in the books doesn't she abort this child? Can't remember but I was pretty sure she never had any live births with Robert.

It's about complicating the characters. I don't remember Sansa telling Cersei, in the TV version, that her dad's about to spirit them away from Kings Landing, but it's been awhile since seeing that one.

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Hopefully they're just building her up to look that way (very sympathetic, not that bad of a person), and then it'll slowly be stripped away and the audience will see how wacko she is. Hopefully.

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TV Theon looks pretty much the same as he is portrayed in the books to me. I loved the letter because it was needed to make it so.

There is a good illustration of some theory or another about psychological conflict and the influence of external acceptance in the formation of personality. Despicable as his actions to come are, Theon lacks much of a choice; he has been denied an identity and spent the last ten years desperately and pointlessly begging for the integration he so sorely needs. It is interesting that his native culture brags of refusing to sow and worships a drowned god, because Theon is indeed lacking in roots, reserves and breathing space. Essentialy, he is being pushed by everyone who is suposed to care for him and therefore forced to live in constant panic. That is why Ramsay affects him so deeply.

I wonder how I will feel later on when he turns against the likes of Rodrick Cassel.

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Alfie Allen is acting his ass off. Probably my favorite scene of the episode, and maybe one of my favorite scenes in the whole series so far. In the books he gets utterly humiliated at Pyke at various turns and his embarassment and his need to prove himself compels him to invade the North. Here, it's a hard-thought decision for acceptance. I might actually give the edge to the show, mostly because of how strong the acting is.

Needed Aeron and Victarion, though...

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Alfie Allen is acting his ass off.

Well said haha!

Little known tidbit of trivia that I didn't know but was the first thing I thought of when I heard the actor's name: Alfie Allen is the brother of pop star Lily Allen, thus making him the "Alfie" of her song about her little brother who is high all the time. HA! :cool4:

Edit: Great interview and pics of Alfie as Theon here: http://whatculture.com/tv/game-of-thrones-interview-alfie-allen-theon-greyjoy.php

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I have to agree that this scene was a great addition to the show and will add a lot to Theon's character. As soon as I saw the letter, I had to pause it so I could read it all and said if only he would have sent the letter...

The show changes to make the characters more sympathetic really don't bother me. As much as we may not want it, it does seem like they are giving Cersei a little bit of sympathy, but I don't mind.

I love the show and am intrigued to see where they take things.

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In the books I've never been interested especially interested in the Iron Islands, the one exception is Theon's story, his betrayal of the Starks etc.. The bit with the letter was fantastic, he is clearly close to Robb and had divided loyalties. I like how he was with his father, very angry and argumentative.

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Everyone's mentioned my favorite points about the Ironborn storyline in this episode.

I just have to add:

The score that accompanied Theon's baptism was phenomenal! Ramin Djawadi composed an swelling, haunting melody for that. It felt equal parts pensive, triumphant, and somber -- all emotions that Theon must have been feeling during the rite.

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I agree that in the later books, after enduring unspeakable torture, Theon/Reek begins to express a small measure of regret, sorrow, perhaps even a little repentance. And he does show a modicum of loyalty by keeping secret the fact that Bran and Rickon are alive. But is there any textual evidence that suggests that he was actually conflicted about betraying Robb and the Starks initially? My recollection is that it was a pretty easy decision for him. He is upset to discover that his father does not trust him and that he has been usurped by his sister; but are there any indications that he feels any pains of conscience when he allies himself with his father's plans? Perhaps there are. It's easy to forget or overlook these kinds of details in the books. My impression of Theon is that he is driven by ambition, lust, and a desire to prove himself to his father. Breaking vows and bonds of affection and loyalty seem to come easy to him. I cannot see book-Theon ever composing a letter of warning to Robb. It is only later, after his education at the hands of Ramsay Bolton, that he begins to evidence something akin to remorse. At least that is my recollection. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I think you are right. One can read what one wants between the lines of what George wrote, but the book Theon seems guileless and lacking in snap.

George is given to lengthy elaboration, and I didn't see this take on Theon.

Sort of think the teleplay writer may have trumped George here.

Actually Theon even here seem a little dim, for instance in the scene with Baylon if he had stopped at warning his fater about the dangers of trying to hold the north and not mentioned fealty or provoked ... it would have been more complex and I don't know how Baylon would have responded to reason well put. (But that did not happen.)

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I think when the writers have added stuff like Theon's letter, his speech to Balon, some of Cersei's dialogue in season 1, Loras/Renly, etc. is to hint at what's to come should future seasons happen and to play up on what they as readers got out of the books. We all interpret things differently. Also, because you are translating, essentially, a book into a visual, you lose a lot of exposition and internal dialogue. So, we have to see things. We get dialogue that can come off as stupid or out of character (this is a generalization I'm making). I don't know if they are quite trying to make Theon more likable but I think when we get to what he does later on, it'll have a much more emotional impact on the audience.

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Everyone's mentioned my favorite points about the Ironborn storyline in this episode.

I just have to add:

The score that accompanied Theon's baptism was phenomenal! Ramin Djawadi composed an swelling, haunting melody for that. It felt equal parts pensive, triumphant, and somber -- all emotions that Theon must have been feeling during the rite.

LOL, I was just about to post exactly the same thing! Goose bump scene!

I might just take a screen shot and use it as a desktop background.

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A question, by the way. Yara did not fondle Theon the way she did in the books. She didn't grope him or anything. Was it completely necessary to put in the whole explicit scene to show why Theon developed disliking for Yara and how weird the ironborn can be?

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A question, by the way. Yara did not fondle Theon the way she did in the books. She didn't grope him or anything. Was it completely necessary to put in the whole explicit scene to show why Theon developed disliking for Yara and how weird the ironborn can be?

I didn't mind them paring down Asha's sexual aggressiveness , alas George gets carried away with over characterization like that, could have done without it in the book, what's supposed to be an amusement becomes too embroidered. Her uber hostility towards Theon in the show seems over done too, in the novel she was just dismissive , which actually stung Theon even more.

Later , much later, Asha tries to warn Theon he is about to get into bad trouble, showing some glimmer of sisterly affection. Theon , by this time, has become deluded , and pays for it in big way.

You know when they meet again, which is way off in the long distance and she sees what has happened to him, we have to wonder what her feelings toward him are? He is a wreck, but George has not shown us that part of the story yet.

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The Theon scenes were possibly my favourite in episode three. I see what people mean about (to use Ran's phrase) front-loading and this early reveal of Theon's motivations and how it could impact on his later storyline. But at this point I'm just really appreciating the fleshing out of book characters. I actually felt quite sorry for Theon when he made that comment about his father giving him away like a dog he didn't want anymore. Exciting stuff though, I thoroughly enjoy it when a book is converted to a visual medium and it does something more with the material.

In response to the poster who mentioned Asha saying she'd always wanted a castle (which I recall from the books), I agree that that sequence was a bit contradictory. Balon reminds Theon of their house words right after saying, effectively, 'let's take all of those empty northern strongholds'. What, you want to take castles but not live in them or use them for anything? It was a bit confusing.

Little known tidbit of trivia that I didn't know but was the first thing I thought of when I heard the actor's name: Alfie Allen is the brother of pop star Lily Allen, thus making him the "Alfie" of her song about her little brother who is high all the time. HA!
This is little known? What?
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In response to the poster who mentioned Asha saying she'd always wanted a castle (which I recall from the books), I agree that that sequence was a bit contradictory. Balon reminds Theon of their house words right after saying, effectively, 'let's take all of those empty northern strongholds'. What, you want to take castles but not live in them or use them for anything? It was a bit confusing.

I didn't make much of it in the novel, after she does live in a 'castle' (be it weird) anyway. I mean the ruling family supposed to live out on the rocks in tents?

And see needs Deepwood Motte as a base of operations ... which becomes a tactical mistake just as Theon tried to warn about.

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And she's positively sympathetic with Catelyn when she's talking about losing her first child (Robert's child), whereas in the books doesn't she abort this child? Can't remember but I was pretty sure she never had any live births with Robert.

I dunno why, but I've always felt that her trying to empathize with Cat was completely fake.

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This is little known? What?

Well maybe the UK folks are more familiar with Alfie Allen and his pop music sister, but I don't think that many people in the US know that fact about the actor. Maybe I just live under a rock here in Texas which is like its own weird country. ;)

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Theon is a very complex character. When he takes over Winterfell he is doing it to prove himself in a way, to his father and himself. But, he is also doing it because he feels wronged by Robb. This makes him self-loathe. He feels torn, part Ironborn and part Northmen.

He does some pretty bad things, but they are understandable because of his situation. This still doesn't make his actions acceptable by any means. Now the Bastard of Bolton has screwed him over.

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