[Book spoilers] Theon's letter

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think Theon will be a controversial fan favorite. He is one of the most talked about and debated characters by book fans and I'm anticipating on seeing how the TV fans interpret this wonderfully written character.

[The late lady stark]

Yes,

In the book when Theon shows up at Winterfell to take it, you're like WTF is he doing? I can't believe he did that. And you flat out hate him until later on. Now that scene wont' have the impact. Makes him more sympathetic in the tv show, don't know if that's good or bad.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

It think it is great that it humanizes him.

Even though we will better understand his actions it wont make them any less foul.

We will probably see him cry himself to sleep after what he has done.

[turdle]

In the book when Theon shows up at Winterfell to take it, you're like WTF is he doing? I can't believe he did that. And you flat out hate him until later on.

false. i've always liked theon. he's my favorite character in aCoK, and one of my top characters overall in the series. the thing i love about these characters is that they often have to make hard and terrible decisions, theons just really good at making poor ones.

[The Non-Human]

Those scenes were great. For the first time, the show truly did add something. However, I disagree with people that said book-theon was unsympathetic. Even if it was not spelled clearly, the impression that he does everything he does because he wants to belong seeps through all of his chapters.

[Floredaï]

CODE]

In the book when Theon shows up at Winterfell to take it, you're like WTF is he doing?

I agree they shouldn't have made Balon talk about seizing castles, particularly Winterfell. IIRC in the books he says he's only interested in taking control of the coasts of the North - which they can actually control from Pyke.

Theon's move against Winterfell is supposed to be his own supposedly brilliant addition to the scheme, and we're spoiled the suprise that he'll dare and succeed this.

I never had any trouble understanding Theon's change of loyalties in the books. He's in fact fairly constant : he's highly self-centered and egoist, and he desperately wants to belong and be recognized. Where most people try to belong by sharing affections -love and be loved- he seems unable to love anybody but himself. That's probably due to the fact that the Greyjoy are not a very loving family to begin with (in fact a deeply disturbed family is more like it), and he was outcast of it. He was too old to learn affection with the Starks, plus his hostage status meant Ned and Cat couldn't love him like a son - they were supposed to kill him in case Balon rebelled again (and we know Cat is not very good at loving children other than her own).

He doesn't reflect much on feelings, nor morals, and mainly goes with the flow of events, as long as it seems to push him on top. When he's with the Starks he wants to be appreciated by the Starks but doesn't understand their familial love and loyalty (remember the episode where he saves Bran from the wildlings -he's not afraid to put him in danger as long as he can show his archer's skills, and expects to be congratulated for his shot instead of scolded by Robb), and when he gets to the Iron Islands, he wants to belong with his old family and never stops to contemplate the contradiction. In fact he already believes himself a king's heir because of Robb's plan, and then grabs onto Balon's plan as a way to keep that position.

[Happy Ent]

(and we know Cat is not very good at loving children other than her own).

She seems to be one of the few characters in the books who actually expresses compassion for other children than her own, so I have no idea where this comes from.

[Lyanna Stark]

She seems to be one of the few characters in the books who actually expresses compassion for other children than her own, so I have no idea where this comes from.

It's the whole schtick that she ought to have loved Ned's bastard son Jon Snow, and she *gasp* didn't.

[Happy Ent]

It's the whole schtick that she ought to have loved Ned's bastard son Jon Snow, and she *gasp* didn't.

I don’t know if you’re joking, Lya, but: Surely nobody expects Cat to even like him or tolerate Jon’s presence at Winterfell. Expecting her to love him would be absurd.

So that can’t be it.

I’m racking my brain here…

[The Non-Human]

I don’t know if you’re joking, Lya, but: Surely nobody expects Cat to even like him or tolerate Jon’s presence at Winterfell. Expecting her to love him would be absurd.

So that can’t be it.

I’m racking my brain here…

People just assume she was terrible with him based on what happened at Bran's room.

[Happy Ent]

People just assume she was terrible with him based on what happened at Bran's room.

You think they deduce something about her character from that single scene? When Bran was dying?

Na… she was pretty mean to Luwin in those days as well, and nobody deduces that Cat has a pathological hatred of maesters.

She was obviously very distressed, and all readers can see that. (Also, Jon is probably the last child on the planet she could be supposed to like. It’s like expecting her to love, say, Jaime of Joffrey. Or, equally absurd, Theon. Surely nobody thinks that.)

[Lyanna Stark]

You think they deduce something about her character from that single scene? When Bran was dying?

Na… she was pretty mean to Luwin in those days as well, and nobody deduces that Cat has a pathological hatred of maesters.

She was obviously very distressed, and all readers can see that. (Also, Jon is probably the last child on the planet she could be supposed to like. It’s like expecting her to love, say, Jaime of Joffrey. Or, equally absurd, Theon. Surely nobody thinks that.)

For reference, this thread, among others. :) Yes, I think people did think Cat treated Jon abominably. People do expect Cat to "get over herself" and like Jon, and some expect her to love him, too. (Which I think is completely missing the point with her character, by the way.)

[Floredaï]

People just assume she was terrible with him based on what happened at Bran's room.

I'm totally lost in the levels of irony or sarcasm on the five last posts here. Am I totally out of my mind to suggest that a woman given the responsability to raise a baby from infancy to teen age should have developped some affection towards the child, whatever who his parents were, and maybe even more so if the child is supposed to be her beloved husband's son ?

He's clearly not responsible for the situation, and if it grated so hard, she should have reported her resentment on Ned, not on the kid. Yet she keeps loving Ned, and hates the child ?

I'am aware the subject has probably been discussed elsewhere, however I'm dismayed if the canon readers' reaction is that "Cat was right to treat Jon as she did" (and no, not speaking of that one scene, but on the overall feeling he kept of his childhood, that he was not to expect more than food and lodging from her)

Theon is a different case, as he was older when he arrived, and a hostage.

[Happy Ent]

Am I totally out of my mind to suggest that a woman given the responsability to raise a baby from infancy to teen age should have developped some affection towards the child, whatever who his parents were, and maybe even more so if the child is supposed to be her beloved husband's son ?

I don’t know the answer to that question. But how is this relevant to this case? Catelyn certainly was never charged with raising Jon. (Or, probably, any of her other children. They’re aristocrats. They have staff for that.)

You would be totally out of your mind if you suggested that a woman should love, like, or even tolerate a child that her husband had with another woman while cheating on her.

I can’t even for a minute imagine what kind of mindset something like that would take. Today it’s certainly unthinkable. In Westeros, there’s another level of political insult heaped upon Catelyn, beside the personal insult. On the other hand, women weren’t really persons back then, so maybe that’s why you think Catelyn should just like the situation? (Honest question.) In any case, nobody in Westeros agrees.

He's clearly not responsible for the situation, and if it grated so hard, she should have reported her resentment on Ned, not on the kid. Yet she keeps loving Ned, and hates the child ?

She did report to Ned, we’re told this quite explicitly.

And since when did she hate Jon? We’re told that she didn’t find it in herself to love him. That’s it.

"Cat was right to treat Jon as she did"

That’s not my position. I think she was a door mat. She should have stood up for herself quite a bit more. Jon has no place at Winterfell, the entire realm agrees. Insist he’s shipped of to Karhold. Better for him, better for her, better for Ned.

Cat’s a saint with respect to Jon, and I think she shouldn’t be.

[Lyanna Stark]

Excellent post HE. :)

Apart from that, Jon was also a constant reminder of Cat's shame, embarrassment and how others would see her as about the same level as those embarrassing Freys who had the bastards fostered in the same place as the trueborn children.

Cat was definitely dutiful in that she didn't pressure Ned *more* about it, but then he intimidated her into silence the one time she dared bring it up. There is nothing that prevented Ned sending Jon off to be fostered with the Cerwyns for instance, since they were close enough that they cold be reached within a day's ride. This was Ned's choice and Ned's alone.

If in doubt, check Cersei's view that Cat must have been a mouse to allow Jon to be fostered in Winterfell together with the trueborn children.

I can’t even for a minute imagine what kind of mindset something like that would take. Today it’s certainly unthinkable. In Westeros, there’s another level of political insult heaped upon Catelyn, beside the personal insult. On the other hand, women weren’t really persons back then, so maybe that’s why you think Catelyn should just like the situation? (Honest question.) In any case, nobody in Westeros agrees.

Best comment this year. :)

[Floredaï]

Wow. We disagree so much on so many points my head spins.

I don’t know the answer to that question. But how is this relevant to this case? Catelyn certainly was never charged with raising Jon. (Or, probably, any of her other children. They’re aristocrats. They have staff for that.)

Staff is just that : staff. No matter how many people there are to cook, wash the dishes, darn clothes or laundry them, the mother is the one who loves, and thus, raises the kids. Even is aristocrats families, or you have a strange idea of what's a family.

You would be totally out of your mind if you suggested that a woman should love, like, or even tolerate a child that her husband had with another woman while cheating on her.

I can’t even for a minute imagine what kind of mindset something like that would take. Today it’s certainly unthinkable. In Westeros, there’s another level of political insult heaped upon Catelyn, beside the personal insult. On the other hand, women weren’t really persons back then, so maybe that’s why you think Catelyn should just like the situation? (Honest question.) In any case, nobody in Westeros agrees.

WelI you can call the psychiatric ward, as I can actually so well imagine it that yes, I believe it must be difficult NOT to love a child you raise. Caretakers certainly do, though they now don't usually mind kids for 15 years. Some of them have even been known to love childs of women they despised or hated (have you read or seen The Help?) I believe I would love any child I had to take care of, even if it was my husband's bastard. OTOH, while I could deal with an unfaithful husband, I coudn't stand one that wouldn't respect me enough to share the whole story whith me. But while I'd expect him to talk about the situation, I'd certainly never force him to cast away his own child. That would be appallingly cruel.

I'm afraid we're going totally out ot subject in that thread.

[Lyanna Stark]

Staff is just that : staff. No matter how many people there are to cook, wash the dishes, darn clothes or laundry them, the mother is the one who loves, and thus, raises the kids. Even is aristocrats families, or you have a strange idea of what's a family.

Jon is not her son. He is a bastard Ned fathered when he was cheating on her. She is not his mother. She has no wish to be and nobody expects her to be. Why is this so difficult to understand? She does not take care of him. She is distant and cold to him due to what he is.

I can't understand how people can totally miss this or misunderstand it completely and hold it against Cat that she is not Jon's ersatz mother. It's truly bizarre.

[john]

The only thing relevant here should surely be what Ned wants. If he wants Jon in Winterfell, he's in Winterfell. If he wants Cat to love him, she should love him. That's feudalism.

Apart from that, I agree with Floredai. And yes, a woman should love a child her husband had with another woman. Best solution for everybody.

eta - oh and I forgot that I came in to say I prefer the book Theon. He's a nasty adolescent. His problems arise from arrogance and immaturity. That's a better character IMO than one with just some mixed up motivations.

[Happy Ent]

Staff is just that : staff. No matter how many people there are to cook, wash the dishes, darn clothes or laundry them, the mother is the one who loves, and thus, raises the kids. Even is aristocrats families, or you have a strange idea of what's a family.

People raising the kids include a wetnurse for feeding, a septa for needlework, a maester for school, and Old Nan for reading bed time stories. Nobody expects Lady Stark (or any other Lady) to raise her children. They have a household to run.

This is not a nuclear family in the 20th century; very few Westerosi families are. You have a strange idea of what’s a family then, both for the smallfolk and (to a bigger extent) for the aristocracy.

WelI you can call the psychiatric ward, as I can actually so well imagine it that yes, I believe it must be difficult NOT to love a child you raise.

I don’t know if it were a proof of my spouses infidelity. I simply can’t imagine how that would be. It’s out of my scope.

But it’s also completely irrelevant. Catelyn did not raise Jon. She probably didn’t even raise Bran or Rickon for that matter. (Though she may have found time for that, and probably loved every second of it.)

[Happy Ent]

And yes, a woman should love a child her husband had with another woman. Best solution for everybody.

If it’s some kind of step child, maybe.

But in this situation? Outrageous.