(Book Spoilers) Margaery Tyrell

[BloodOfKingu]

And her breasts right?

that goes without saying!

but it's that twinkle in her eyes that really gets me, though.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

that's what i was getting at; i thought it was pretty much spelled out from the beginning that renly was gay, it never even occurred to me anyone would think he wasn't. maybe it's because i have a gay cousin and have spent time in his circle of friends.

there was no twisting intended. it was just a plain statement that i am surprised when people miss this.

The impression I got from the books was that Renly was bisexual, though women might not have been his first preference. The character in the TV show appears to be incapable of sex with women. In the books, IIRC, Taena Merryweather was present at the marriage of Renly and Margaery and took part in Renly's disrobing. She later told Cersei that Renly was aroused when she and the other women stripped him naked and deposited him in bed with Margaery. Of course, she could simply have been telling Cersei what she wanted to hear, but who knows?

[Salome the Persian Witch]

I too always thought the gay Renly/Loras thing was pretty explicit in the books. And they did mention times they were together (Renly stating he was going to spend the night "praying" with Loras instead of being with Margaery, etc.) And I'm not gonna lie - I was more gratified with last night's make-out session between the 2 than in the first season where I felt they were acting like whiny old women with each other :ack:

I make no bones about having Margaery be seen as a strong player. (Heck, even in the books, I could see her stating that if Renly needed to plant a baby in her, he could invite Loras in). I guess for me, I was commenting on 2 HBO decisions.

1. Making Margaery more "explicitly" sexy than Cersei. Perhaps it's part of my disappointment in their choices to make Cersei more matronly and less obvious. In fact, if anyone should be the typical sex bomb HBO stereotype, it would be the character of Cersei!

2. I perhaps feel that Margaery might be seen as a stronger player if she is portrayed as the "perfect companion" ie. very Queenly in a way that's demure and stately in public, but then is shown to be very pragmatic (ie. that bedroom scene!)

[Lord Varys]

They had two choices:

1. Making Margaery an extra, just sitting there, smiling, and being nice (that's all she does in the ACoK!).

2. To decide to expand her role somewhat and give her additional scenes with Renly and Loras. But showing Margaery in private demands showing the 'true Margaery', and despite her young age, I really do consider the book Margaery to be just this way.

So I really had no problem with that. The only exception being the fact that Renly apparently was not aware that Margaery knew about him and Loras. This makes Renly way to naive...

[snax]

It makes me a little nervous that Natalie Dormer looks well over twenty. The visual age differences between her and boyish-looking Joffrey and Tommen are going to be huge. Like I mentioned elsewhere, she could pass for Tommen's mother.

I'm not completely sold on the new Margaery angle. It would've been nice to have one Tyrell who wasn't scheming.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't mind Margaery having a more active role in the tv series this early on, but I think both Margaery's dress and her behaviour were a bit inappropriate. Generally, the costumes on the show are great, but I thought the gown she wears at the tournament was a bit too revealing for a supposedly virgin of noble birth in a medievalish society. And the way she casually took off her clothes in the tent scene with Renly was a bit too soft-porn cheesy, and it reminded me too much of how the whores in Littlefinger's brothels behave. Even if the "officially still a virgin" bit means she in fact isn't, the overall portrayal doesn't befit a lady who at least pretends to be a virgin. Dormer's portrayal of her makes Margaery appear just appear as promiscuous as Dormer's Anne Boleyn, considering she has only been on screen for a couple of minutes, and I'm unsure whether that was what the writers were going for.

So highborn women are horny or sexual?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Yeah I was surprised by the Loras line as well, but obviously we've already seen numerous things in the show that were left to the imagination (Renly being gay, Stannis sleeping with Melisandre), even if strongly hinted at in the books.

I'm ok with Margery's portrayal, both in terms of being sexy and her being more of a player in the game. In the books we saw her subtley manipulate Tommen, but we never really knew if she knew how to play the game or if she just followed the queen of thorns' orders. This is more direct, but it saves one more character for the TV followers to have to learn.

Sorry but, Renly being gay, with Loras as his lover, was always out there and so was Stannis sleeping with Mel. It was never left to the imagination. I don't care for the actress, however, I like her portrayal of Margaery.

[Lord Varys]

Lady Alerie seems to be a no-schemer. And Loras is at best a modest schemer, as is Mace. The real schemers are Olenna, Margaery, and (possibly) Garlan and Willas (Willas seems to be not stupid, and Garlan most likely was the actual poisoner).

But Margaery of all people is very much in the scheming business:

1. She went along with Mace's/Loras's scheme to crown Renly and married him.

2. She consented to marry Joffrey after Renly's death and was privy to/complicit in Lady Olenna's plot to murder Joffrey.

3. She befriended Sansa for the sole purpose to marry her to her brother Willas.

4. She actively tried to alienate Tommen from his mother. And she most certainly had her own intrigues to get rid of Cersei.

I'm quite convinced we will get to the core of her personality in TWoW. We finally need a Tyrell POV in that book.

[The Monkey]

It makes me a little nervous that Natalie Dormer looks well over twenty. The visual age differences between her and boyish-looking Joffrey and Tommen are going to be huge. Like I mentioned elsewhere, she could pass for Tommen's mother.

I'm not completely sold on the new Margaery angle. It would've been nice to have one Tyrell who wasn't scheming.

Can you just imagine how cute Margaery and Tommen will look together? Aww.... :)

[hurricaneez2]

Natalie Dormer is a goddess!!! And I love here potrayal of Margaery

[Envie]

Sorry but, Renly being gay, with Loras as his lover, was always out there and so was Stannis sleeping with Mel. It was never left to the imagination. I don't care for the actress, however, I like her portrayal of Margaery.

Oh that's baloney! Plenty was left up to the imagination. Martin has no problem writing explicit sex scenes in detail when he wants to, but with both Renly and Stannis, their sexual relations with Loras and Melisandre were never really written in any great detail. It was 'implied' what they did behind closed doors and that was part of the beauty of it - mystery and uncertainty.

They've certainly left nothing to the imagination in the series, hah!

[Dr. Pepper]

When I saw that Dormer was cast as Margaery, I groaned. I'm not a Dormer fan and I couldn't envision how the storyline would proceed with a woman who is older than Loras and Renly, who is the weight behind the scheming, and who would eventually marry Joffrey and Tommen. I figured it would mean a lot of changes to the character as she was portrayed in the books.

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. My general loathing for Dormer seemed to melt away as she sold the part. They did well with the changes they made and it all made sense. Of course, I'm still curious how it will look on-screen with her marrying Joffrey and Tommen but that's seasons enough away that Dormer will have time to fully grow into her role.

Dormer also highlighted how poor the casting was done for Asha. It showed that you can dramatically change a character and still make it acceptable for for book lovers.

I'm not bothered by all of the sex and nudity but I am bothered that they mute the violence so much. Westeros is a pretty violent world and it sort of loses a bit of flavor when the blood flying is downgraded.

Also, just curious....where do people think Martin was supposed to write sex scenes for Renly? He wasn't a POV. Loras wasn't a POV. Their servants didn't have POV's. Even Varys doesn't have a POV. Was a POV character supposed to be standing in the room giving a play-by-play? Were they supposed to be screaming with pleasure a la Lysa and Petyr so that a POV could document it? That wouldn't make sense as they were obviously trying to hide their relationship. Same with Stannis.

[Dragon of Valyria]

The dress was certainly something one notices right away!

Have you noticed that the different regions seem to have their own clothing customs for women? In the North the women wear woolen gowns with those gathered-collared blouses underneath, in King's Landing the ladies wear gowns of lighter fabric, but with a kimono-inspired wrap, and in the Vale the gowns are draped and gathered in the front (which I found to be reminiscent of wings)? Highgarden in supposed to be warm, and so perhaps the gowns there are all deeply cut. I guess that will be interesting when we meet the Queen of Thorns (if we meet her at all, somebody suggested her character might be merged with Margery. That seems entirely likely to me).

Huh. That's interesting. I certainly noticed the Northern collar-things, because they seemed to resemble ruffled neckties or cravats. And I certainly noticed the contrast with the south, but not to any level of visual consistency. Interesting. I'll have to take a closer look. The menswear in KL is also significantly lighter and more decorative than in the North, and Varys has his robes and such.

[Envie]

When I saw that Dormer was cast as Margaery, I groaned. I'm not a Dormer fan and I couldn't envision how the storyline would proceed with a woman who is older than Loras and Renly, who is the weight behind the scheming, and who would eventually marry Joffrey and Tommen. I figured it would mean a lot of changes to the character as she was portrayed in the books.

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. My general loathing for Dormer seemed to melt away as she sold the part. They did well with the changes they made and it all made sense. Of course, I'm still curious how it will look on-screen with her marrying Joffrey and Tommen but that's seasons enough away that Dormer will have time to fully grow into her role.

Dormer also highlighted how poor the casting was done for Asha. It showed that you can dramatically change a character and still make it acceptable for for book lovers.

I'm not bothered by all of the sex and nudity but I am bothered that they mute the violence so much. Westeros is a pretty violent world and it sort of loses a bit of flavor when the blood flying is downgraded.

Also, just curious....where do people think Martin was supposed to write sex scenes for Renly? He wasn't a POV. Loras wasn't a POV. Their servants didn't have POV's. Even Varys doesn't have a POV. Was a POV character supposed to be standing in the room giving a play-by-play? Were they supposed to be screaming with pleasure a la Lysa and Petyr so that a POV could document it? That wouldn't make sense as they were obviously trying to hide their relationship. Same with Stannis.

Like you, I wasn't really sure about Natalie Dormer being cast as Margaery due to her age. But she's done a great job in this episode so I have hopes she's going to continue playing a convincing and clever Tyrell schemer (and yes she was a schemer taught by her amazing Grandmother!).

Also, as a sidenote, I remember Natalie Dormer playing Anne Boleyn in the 'The Tudors' series on Showtime years ago so that was coloring my perception of her as a 'scheming queen' role haha!

Dormer has the ability due to her pixie like face to play a role much younger than her natural age. Also, we must remember that they've aged everyone in the series up quite a bit from what they were written in the books. GRRM has also admitted in interviews he would have preferred a lot of the characters older than he originally wrote them. All of the Stark kids are older. Oddly, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen all seem to be about the same age as they were in the books. I don't think its going to look that odd to have Joffrey and Dormer playing Margaery together - Sansa is also older than Joffrey by a few years though it doesn't seem that way in the show.

[Racibor]

Stunning actress and her scene with Renly was both hilarious and meaningful plot- and characterwise. Way better then that forced Ros stuff from previous episodes.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Oh that's baloney! Plenty was left up to the imagination. Martin has no problem writing explicit sex scenes in detail when he wants to, but with both Renly and Stannis, their sexual relations with Loras and Melisandre were never really written in any great detail. It was 'implied' what they did behind closed doors and that was part of the beauty of it - mystery and uncertainty.

They've certainly left nothing to the imagination in the series, hah!

Renly and Loras praying together, right. Loras, "When the sun sets, no candle can replace it." not very subtle. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use."

[Envie]

Renly and Loras praying together, right. Loras, "When the sun sets, no candle can replace it." not very subtle. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use."

Keep arguing it all you like, the fact is neither of those characters had a 'sex scene' written into the books. Period. In the series we're getting very graphic ones. There's quite a large difference here in what you're denying as 'subtle' from the books. Yes, I believe those lines you quoted are subtle hints that there's something intimate happening but they are not defacto verbatim confirmations of sex happening. Someone could interpret those lines entirely differently.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Renly and Loras praying together, right. Loras, "When the sun sets, no candle can replace it." not very subtle. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use." You really do not have to use much imagination to figure that out. It doesn't have be graphically described for it not to be clearly noticed.

[The Monkey]

Keep arguing it all you like, the fact is neither of those characters had a 'sex scene' written into the books. Period. In the series we're getting very graphic ones. There's quite a large difference here in what you're denying as 'subtle' from the books. Yes, I believe those lines you quoted are subtle hints that there's something intimate happening but they are not defacto verbatim confirmations of sex happening. Someone could interpret those lines entirely differently.

Two people kissing is "graphic"?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Two people kissing is "graphic"?

I suppose it is to some. Third graders maybe.