(Book Spoilers) Margaery Tyrell

[Raksha the Demon]

Like you, I wasn't really sure about Natalie Dormer being cast as Margaery due to her age. But she's done a great job in this episode so I have hopes she's going to continue playing a convincing and clever Tyrell schemer (and yes she was a schemer taught by her amazing Grandmother!).

Also, as a sidenote, I remember Natalie Dormer playing Anne Boleyn in the 'The Tudors' series on Showtime years ago so that was coloring my perception of her as a 'scheming queen' role haha!

Dormer has the ability due to her pixie like face to play a role much younger than her natural age. Also, we must remember that they've aged everyone in the series up quite a bit from what they were written in the books. GRRM has also admitted in interviews he would have preferred a lot of the characters older than he originally wrote them. All of the Stark kids are older. Oddly, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen all seem to be about the same age as they were in the books. I don't think its going to look that odd to have Joffrey and Dormer playing Margaery together - Sansa is also older than Joffrey by a few years though it doesn't seem that way in the show.

I think that Tommen was 9 in ACOK and Myrcella 10 or 11. TV-Myrcella seems 12 or 13. TV-Joffrey could be any age from 13 to 17, he has a slender build and a young face.

In the books, Sansa was slightly younger than Joffrey.

My only problem with the casting of Natalie Dormer, who is in her low 30's, I think and looks in her mid-20's at least, is that I don't see how Cersei would ever allow her to marry 10-year-old Tommen; since, by the time Tommen was able to sire children, his queen might be too old to produce them.

[Envie]

I think that Tommen was 9 in ACOK and Myrcella 10 or 11. TV-Myrcella seems 12 or 13. TV-Joffrey could be any age from 13 to 17, he has a slender build and a young face.

In the books, Sansa was slightly younger than Joffrey.

My only problem with the casting of Natalie Dormer, who is in her low 30's, I think and looks in her mid-20's at least, is that I don't see how Cersei would ever allow her to marry 10-year-old Tommen; since, by the time Tommen was able to sire children, his queen might be too old to produce them.

Well I don't think they intend for her to be a 25-35 year old woman in the series. I think her age is ambiguous based on her looks. She looks younger than Renly, not that it matters. But I would say they were going for an 19-22 year old look for her (she's built slight enough and again, pixie young face). Even so, A 20-something Queen is going to look odd next to a 10-14 year old Tommen even if he's been aged up a bit by then. It's not completely out of the question and in the model time period of the genre, perfectly normal.

Oh and as for having children. Most women do not hit menopause until their late 40s as the earliest so even IF she were being cast as 25 and Tommen's lets say 12, the age difference is not that vast and yes, she would be able to produce children by the time he hits puberty. ;)

[teemo]

I think it will be strange to see a 30 year old woman marrying a what....10 year old? Even though she's not actually playing a 30 year old, she still looks her age. Margaery definitely doesn't look like she's almost out of her child-bearing years, but yeah.....a little bizarre. Her and Joffrey is weird enough.

[The Greatmatt]

Felt the need to jump in and say that absolutely loved the bedroom scene, and everything it said about Margaery's character. In the books they leave a lot about her character ambiguous, and while that can be a good thing, it's never a bad thing to get more of the blanks filled in revealing a compelling character.

Typically when we talk about moral ambiguity we talk about the good guys doing bad things. A far more interesting version of it though is when a character does things that immediately make the audience groan "That's just wrong!", but which really don't need to have any such reaction. What Margaery displays here is basically that she's going to be the most supportive queen Renly could possibly ask for, she's hurting no one, and so really we the audience are the one's with the issue. Great stuff, definitely stole the episode.

[Hear Us Roar]

They should have made the Tommen and Mycella older. Tommen looks like he is 6 on the show.

[Envie]

Typically when we talk about moral ambiguity we talk about the good guys doing bad things. A far more interesting version of it though is when a character does things that immediately make the audience groan "That's just wrong!", but which really don't need to have any such reaction. What Margaery displays here is basically that she's going to be the most supportive queen Renly could possibly ask for, she's hurting no one, and so really we the audience are the one's with the issue. Great stuff, definitely stole the episode.

I completely agree with you here and why I felt the scene was well done. There's some criticism of it, that it was crass or played up the homosexuality too much, but I disagree. I think it was just the scene necessary to show how strongly the Tyrells want power with the royal family and that both brother and sister are willing to do whatever it takes - which is obviously the running theme of Game of Thrones ... who is willing to go to extremes (murders, blackmail, backstabbing, manipulations etc) to get what they want...whether that's love, sex, power, money - its all currency in this gambling game.

I also think it displays Margaery as a more pragmatic and sensible "queen" of convenience. These things are highlighted in the book about her but we never got a POV chapter so we could only go with what others thought of her or scenes where she spoke from third person perspectives.

I agree with many that had she been given a POV, we might see a much much more clever and manipulative Margaery who towards the end of the last book was managing to beat Cersei hands down at the favoritism and manipulation games.

They don't even need Olenna (though I hope she is cast anyways) to make Margaery's personality displayed the way it should be from the book since they're giving Natalie Dormer the ability to portray that really well.

[brena]

She looks younger than Renly, not that it matters. But I would say they were going for an 19-22 year old look for her (she's built slight enough and again, pixie young face). Even so, A 20-something Queen is going to look odd next to a 10-14 year old Tommen even if he's been aged up a bit by then. It's not completely out of the question and in the model time period of the genre, perfectly normal.

I think it will be strange to see a 30 year old woman marrying a what....10 year old? Even though she's not actually playing a 30 year old, she still looks her age. Margaery definitely doesn't look like she's almost out of her child-bearing years, but yeah.....a little bizarre.

Margaery's age difference with Tommen is a little weird, even in the books. She's his bigger sister, not really his wife.

And I agree with Envie, regardless of Dormer's real age, she looks very young due to her elfique features. And she's definitly presented as being younger then Renly.

Also, from what we've seen so far, they seem to emphasis the changes of maturity in some characters by aging them significantly. Just compare photos from season 1 and season 2 of Robb, Loras and Renly, for best exemples. They look like they aged 10 years, mostly because in season 1 they were made to look much younger then the actors' real age. They might do something similar with Tommen too.

[Hyper]

Margaery's age difference with Tommen is a little weird, even in the books. She's his bigger sister, not really his wife.

And I agree with Envie, regardless of Dormer's real age, she looks very young due to her elfique features. And she's definitly presented as being younger then Renly.

I was very concerned about Dorner's age when she was cast (I had not seen her in much before) - but I think she is coming across as much younger than I expected. She can pass for someone in their early twenties - no problem IMO.

And I agree, the Margery-Tommen union was a bit extreme in the books as well. But I think the Tommen actor in two years will make the difference less extreme than it would appear like now.

[Ghost714]

There is nothing weird about Margaery being married to Tommen, in Westeros. I think Natalie Dormer looks way younger than she is, and the show made her look even younger, I would say she is not over 20 based off of her looks and stuff in the show. Remember in Westeros we had people like Jon Arryn being married to Lysa Tully, he was older than her dad, and he looked it. There is no way Margaery looks older than Robert or even Jaime, let alone her actually being younger.

With that said, I absolutely loved Natalie Dormer as Margaery. I could very easily see them cutting Olenna Tyrell from the show, and if they do, I am fine with it, because Natalie Dormer can easily pull off both characters. I do not understand why so many people are freaking out at the possibility of Olenna's character being cut. She really is not that big of a character, and I don't know why so many people have blown her way out of proportion. Some one even said earlier in the thread, that it's ok to cut the Reeds, but not Olenna, because their role is much smaller than Olenna's. Frankly, I think that is crazy talk, Jojen and Meera are much bigger characters than Olenna Tyrell, even as individual characters they are bigger in the books, let alone both of the characters. So if we are going to accept the Reeds being gone all together, then I am fine with Olenna's character being wrapped into Margaery's, because Natalie Dormer did an amazing job.

I am really so confused on how the show can do such amazing casting, with Margaery, Arya, Sansa, Stannis, Davos, Melisandre, Jon etc... And then do such a god awful job at casting Yara, because she is the worst casted character so far in the show, for having a fairly big role in the story.

[brena]

There is nothing weird about Margaery being married to Tommen, in Westeros. I think Natalie Dormer looks way younger than she is, and the show made her look even younger, I would say she is not over 20 based off of her looks and stuff in the show. Remember in Westeros we had people like Jon Arryn being married to Lysa Tully, he was older than her dad, and he looked it.

I agree that age difference doesn't seem to be a major issue in Westeros. But I still think that, althought Margaery and Tommen's wedding is not "OH MY SEVEN GODS!!"-weird, it's still depicted as somewhat unusual. Maybe not so much because of the age difference but mostly because Tommen is still a child that hasn't "come of age".

And while Arryn/Lysa's wedding was accepted, it wasn't exactly the norm.

[...]and I don't know why so many people have blown her way out of proportion. Some one even said earlier in the thread, that it's ok to cut the Reeds, but not Olenna, because their role is much smaller than Olenna's. Frankly, I think that is crazy talk, Jojen and Meera are much bigger characters than Olenna Tyrell, even as individual characters they are bigger in the books, let alone both of the characters. So if we are going to accept the Reeds being gone all together, then I am fine with Olenna's character being wrapped into Margaery's, because Natalie Dormer did an amazing job.

I am really so confused on how the show can do such amazing casting, with Margaery, Arya, Sansa, Stannis, Davos, Melisandre, Jon etc... And then do such a god awful job at casting Yara, because she is the worst casted character so far in the show, for having a fairly big role in the story.

LIke I said in another thread, I think people mix up what they absolutely love from the books with what is necessary for the tv show. I understand that some people are very attached to characters they've loved; I personnaly LOVE Olenna. But still, just because I love Olenna doesn't mean I can't see the show being done wonderfully without her. Some part of me wish she'll be included just because I want to see her, but overall I think it would benefit the show more if she wasn't there, because then Margaery could get more focus.

About YarAsha, I completly disagree. I think she's brilliantly cast. I watch the shows with my husband who hasn't read the books and as soon as she appeared, he yelled "HOLY SHIT! THAT GIRL IS THE MOST BADASS PIRATE OF ALL!!!", before she even opened her mouth to say anything. When she and Theon were riding, he asked me when was she going to kick his teeth in and make him eat his boots.

I think people pictured her more like Keira Knightley and were put off that the actress they chose has an unusual kind of beauty, has been made to look like she lives in tough conditions and doesn't spend time prettying up, and looks like she can actually lift her own weight.

[Envie]

I am really so confused on how the show can do such amazing casting, with Margaery, Arya, Sansa, Stannis, Davos, Melisandre, Jon etc... And then do such a god awful job at casting Yara, because she is the worst casted character so far in the show, for having a fairly big role in the story.

Well see, that's just personal opinion - like most of the people in these debates. Many in the Asha/Yara thread defended her. I personally don't like the actor chosen or the way she's carrying the character but others think she's just fine, some even think she's great.

At the same time, plenty of people can't stand the actors for Stannis, or Melisandre either. Some say Stannis didn't act anything like that in the book and his looks are all wrong. Others think Melisandre is all wrong.

Just personal preference and probably how you imagined them from the book I guess. Overall I think they've had far more hits than misses with casting.

[Ghost714]

I agree that age difference doesn't seem to be a major issue in Westeros. But I still think that, althought Margaery and Tommen's wedding is not "OH MY SEVEN GODS!!"-weird, it's still depicted as somewhat unusual. Maybe not so much because of the age difference but mostly because Tommen is still a child that hasn't "come of age".

And while Arryn/Lysa's wedding was accepted, it wasn't exactly the norm.

LIke I said in another thread, I think people mix up what they absolutely love from the books with what is necessary for the tv show. I understand that some people are very attached to characters they've loved; I personnaly LOVE Olenna. But still, just because I love Olenna doesn't mean I can't see the show being done wonderfully without her. Some part of me wish she'll be included just because I want to see her, but overall I think it would benefit the show more if she wasn't there, because then Margaery could get more focus.

About YarAsha, I completly disagree. I think she's brilliantly cast. I watch the shows with my husband who hasn't read the books and as soon as she appeared, he yelled "HOLY SHIT! THAT GIRL IS THE MOST BADASS PIRATE OF ALL!!!", before she even opened her mouth to say anything. When she and Theon were riding, he asked me when was she going to kick his teeth in and make him eat his boots.

I think people pictured her more like Keira Knightley and were put off that the actress they chose has an unusual kind of beauty, has been made to look like she lives in tough conditions and doesn't spend time prettying up, and looks like she can actually lift her own weight.

I could care less if Yara was not stereotypically pretty, because I don't think Asha was in the books. However Asha did have a certain degree of sex appeal that I don't get from Yara at all. What Yara is missing most is the fire, swagger and cocky confidence that Asha has in the books. Yara seems cocky only in the sense that her daddy is Lord of the Iron Islands, and she is his little pet. When Asha has a cocky confidence because of her own abilities and might. I don't think Yara would stand a chance against book Asha. Yara is just to frumpy all around, and I don't think anybody would ever say that about Asha in the books.

Again, my biggest complaint with Yara is not her looks, even though I do think Asha was some what physically fit and attractive, my biggest complaint is just the lifelessness that Yara portrays, which the opposite of being alive and full of fire, like Asha.

[The Greatmatt]

I completely agree with you here and why I felt the scene was well done. There's some criticism of it, that it was crass or played up the homosexuality too much, but I disagree. I think it was just the scene necessary to show how strongly the Tyrells want power with the royal family and that both brother and sister are willing to do whatever it takes - which is obviously the running theme of Game of Thrones ... who is willing to go to extremes (murders, blackmail, backstabbing, manipulations etc) to get what they want...whether that's love, sex, power, money - its all currency in this gambling game.

I also think it displays Margaery as a more pragmatic and sensible "queen" of convenience. These things are highlighted in the book about her but we never got a POV chapter so we could only go with what others thought of her or scenes where she spoke from third person perspectives.

I agree with many that had she been given a POV, we might see a much much more clever and manipulative Margaery who towards the end of the last book was managing to beat Cersei hands down at the favoritism and manipulation games.

They don't even need Olenna (though I hope she is cast anyways) to make Margaery's personality displayed the way it should be from the book since they're giving Natalie Dormer the ability to portray that really well.

A thought occurred to me since posting: I feel like Margaery might be the Joan Holloway of Westeros. Makes me happy.

Agree with everything you say, including the bit that I still REALLY want the Queen of Thorns in there.

[The Greatmatt]

I could care less if Yara was not stereotypically pretty, because I don't think Asha was in the books. However Asha did have a certain degree of sex appeal that I don't get from Yara at all. What Yara is missing most is the fire, swagger and cocky confidence that Asha has in the books. Yara seems cocky only in the sense that her daddy is Lord of the Iron Islands, and she is his little pet. When Asha has a cocky confidence because of her own abilities and might. I don't think Yara would stand a chance against book Asha. Yara is just to frumpy all around, and I don't think anybody would ever say that about Asha in the books.

Again, my biggest complaint with Yara is not her looks, even though I do think Asha was some what physically fit and attractive, my biggest complaint is just the lifelessness that Yara portrays, which the opposite of being alive and full of fire, like Asha.

Yeah, I think this perspective has some merit. Go look at some pictures of the actress, and she's not unattractive, but they didn't really pick someone who comes off as fierce and strong. My mind is still open, but she just doesn't seem that intimidating right now.

[Brucolac]

I think it will be strange to see a 30 year old woman marrying a what....10 year old? Even though she's not actually playing a 30 year old, she still looks her age. Margaery definitely doesn't look like she's almost out of her child-bearing years, but yeah.....a little bizarre. Her and Joffrey is weird enough.

I can't picture tommen from anything else but Joffrey played what looked like a ten year old kid in "Batman Begins" almost 8 years ago. He has to be close to eighteen by now.

[Lord Varys]

Margaery being much older than Tommen will make Cersei's resentment towards Tommen's marriage much understandable. It will be obvious to everyone that this is a political marriage only, and the fact that the Tyrells will insist on the marriage will show their ambition.

[brena]

I can't picture tommen from anything else but Joffrey played what looked like a ten year old kid in "Batman Begins" almost 8 years ago. He has to be close to eighteen by now.

Accordin to WInteriscoming.net, Callum Wharry, the actor who plays Tommen was about 11 years-old in 2010. So if that info is right, he's about 13, now.

source: http://winteriscoming.net/2010/09/myrcella-and-tommen-cast/

From what I've seen on an unofficial fansite, Jack Gleeson (Joffrey) is a second-year college student as of 2012. In Ireland, I guess it means he's about 20 years-old??? Maybe some Irish member can confirm?

source: http://jack-gleeson.com/

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Is there a chance that they are maybe cutting the Queen of Thorns role? Making Margery more intelligent and being able to play the game can make her fill in the role of organizing PW.

That would blow. Great character with some fantastic lines. Must needs be in the show.

[brena]

That would blow. Great character with some fantastic lines. Must needs be in the show.

While I loved her lines, I disagree that she needs to be in the show.

Calling twins Left and Right and demanding cheese, are hilarious, but it doesn't bring nearly as much to a tv show as having one cunning mastermind Tyrell played by an actress of Dormer's caliber.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

About YarAsha, I completly disagree. I think she's brilliantly cast. I watch the shows with my husband who hasn't read the books and as soon as she appeared, he yelled "HOLY SHIT! THAT GIRL IS THE MOST BADASS PIRATE OF ALL!!!", before she even opened her mouth to say anything. When she and Theon were riding, he asked me when was she going to kick his teeth in and make him eat his boots.

I think people pictured her more like Keira Knightley and were put off that the actress they chose has an unusual kind of beauty, has been made to look like she lives in tough conditions and doesn't spend time prettying up, and looks like she can actually lift her own weight.

For me, the actress playing "Yara" doesn't look like she's lived in tough conditions - I'd expect a young woman who commands her own ship of raiders to be lean and tough. I certainly don't picture Asha as Keira Knightley, who looks like a stiff breeze might snap her arms. But I do picture Asha as a hard, athletic woman capable of keeping a ship full of reavers in line, and I can't see this actress doing anything close to that. If she lost the perpetual smirk, she'd have been a good choice to play the over-ripe Lysa Arryn described in the books. Or Lollys Stokeworth.

As for attractiveness, I always picture Asha with dark hair, dark eyes and a big nose :drunk: . Not "pretty" but charismatic, funny and sexy - as she is in the books.