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Why is it that not many girls like Fantasy?


rumple9

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Yeah, I don't see the premise of the topic as true at all. Perhaps women (and girls, and ladies) are less likely to get as passionate over the genre as a fella, like the above poster says, and those who don't like it may be more likely to express disapproval (especially these days where the line between 'geek' and 'cool' is evaporating fast, probably moreso in male pop culture atm) but in terms of readership/viewership? Not necessarily.

I mean, women are pretty much the reason I'm even into the genre at all; my mum started me off at a young age and a friend of my sister's lent me Magician later on, which pretty much cemented my fantasy obsession.

And like Mandy said before, I guarantee you that Urban Fantasy is overwhelmingly girl-dominated.

Yeah, my aunt gave me The Hobbit in 4th grade, and that was it.

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You mean epic fantasy? Women eat up urban fantasy and paranormal fantasy. But, a lot of that is written for the super commercial market (think Dan Brown level of writing).

Epic fantasy takes its time, and, honestly? There are more poorly executed female characters in fantasy than there are dynamic, interesting characters. I do think that's changing, though. I know a LOT of women who picked up Game of Thrones after the show aired on HBO and they are eating up the series like crazy. Most of them didn't know that Martin has some pretty interesting female leads in his books. Sure, you have the medieval "setting" where women are not equal to men, but the females in Martin's books who do push against that "norm" really push hard.

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I think that too many fantasy novels are written in a way that makes it obvious the writer is male and the intended reader is male. I won't mention any names, but I am thinking of a certain New York Times bestseller in which the author spends an entire paragraph describing a woman's breasts. It was just silly, but there you have it. As a gay man I found it insulting; I can only guess what women thought.

The really insidious part is that this kind of thing goes nearly unremarked and even unnoticed even by women in the industry. In regards to the above-mentioned-but-unnamed-novel, I happen to know that the editor of the book was female. When I was shopping my book around the industry, with the help of a literary agent, I was told, by a woman, that my female protaganist should be a virgin. When I asked why, I was told, "Because it's the trope." I'm willing to bet my next paycheck - such as it is - that if my protaganist had been male no such request would ever have been made, or even considered. Sexism is part of the background radiation of fantasy, so subtle that the players it affects aren't even aware they are affected.

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And then we have urban fantasy, a whole sub-genre that I'm willing to bet is dominated by female readers. I think there are just as many female geeks as male, but that maybe you are just looking in the wrong place.

I would agree that now there are definitely more women involved in what was a traditionally male dominated genre but this seems like a recent development. Pre-rise of the geek, ten, maybe even just five years ago epic fantasy and sci-fi were stigmatised as geeky or nerdy (That stereotype hasn't disappeared, a grown man reading fantasy books is still comedy shorthand for an emotionally stunted man-child) whilst now these worlds are far more accessible and accepted in mainstream culture.

Maybe there has always been a large female readership of these genres and they are simply more visible now but I suspect being a girl growing up playing D&D, reading fantasy etc would have invariably made you the only girl in the company of guys.

Urban fantasy does seem, at least at first glance, to be far more evenly populated, even female dominated (certainly twilight seems to be). Is this the emphasis on romance or the modern day setting? I don't doubt that the antiquated social views are a turn off (as a medieval setting makes writing compelling, three dimensional female characters difficult as they, comparatively, have so little power or influence. GRRM seems to be the exception and not the rule in terms of medieval fantasy fiction and well written female characters) but then I would expect the same to apply to historical fiction which I don't think suffers from the same disparity in readership.

Okay, sweeping generalisation.......

Do women obsess over stuff like this less than men do? It has always seemed to me that fantasy (and I'm also gonna lump sci-fi in as well) lends itself to obsession more so than other genres and women don't tend to analyse/obsess over films, books, tv etc to the extent that men do?

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As a girl, I LOVED LOTR and read it probably way too many times. I also read the Chronicles or Narnia and some other C.S. Lewis fiction books. I had no idea that ASOIAF even existed until I saw the show and I almost cried to myself. If I remember correctly, the series debuted in 1996 and I would have been right in the middle of high school. I wish someone would have told me this back then. I would have loved the opportunity to sink into the book and emmerse myself into a different world (I actually had a lot of friends and was fairly popular but I also had a not so good home life so it would have been a much needed escape).

As a woman, when I got a hold of the books last year it was my answer to the stressors that a new baby brings. So for me, at least, epic fantasy is an awesome way to let leave the world and indulge the imagination. I love it. I find it necessary to engage my imagination and epic fantasy is a great way to do it.

I'm not sure why other girls/women do not enjoy it. And I certainly wouldn't be turned off by a man that was really in to it. In fact, I think it would be fun to be "nerds" together.

But that's just me.

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The really insidious part is that this kind of thing goes nearly unremarked and even unnoticed even by women in the industry. In regards to the above-mentioned-but-unnamed-novel, I happen to know that the editor of the book was female. When I was shopping my book around the industry, with the help of a literary agent, I was told, by a woman, that my female protaganist should be a virgin. When I asked why, I was told, "Because it's the trope." I'm willing to bet my next paycheck - such as it is - that if my protaganist had been male no such request would ever have been made, or even considered. Sexism is part of the background radiation of fantasy, so subtle that the players it affects aren't even aware they are affected.

Reminds me of an interview I saw with Aaron Sorkin. His play A Few Good Men had been bought by a major studio and he was writing the screenplay. A studio note came down asking why Demi Moore's character was included if she wasn't going to sleep with Tom Cruise.

Both stories are depressing and indicative of how women are treated in the media.

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@Lady Olenna: Aren't you married though? Don't get our little geeky male hearts up otherwise. :-)

@TrackerNeil: Are you talking about the rotted tosh that is the female quotient of Wise Man's Fear? You don't have to answer directly. Two spaces after every sentence in your next post if yes, one space after every sentence if no. ;-)

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Okay, sweeping generalisation.......

Do women obsess over stuff like this less than men do? It has always seemed to me that fantasy (and I'm also gonna lump sci-fi in as well) lends itself to obsession more so than other genres and women don't tend to analyse/obsess over films, books, tv etc to the extent that men do?

Um, Twilight..

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I think I'd agree with most of what's been said about "epic fantasy" and why much of it might not appeal to women.

I'd just like to add, though, that not only is "urban fantasy" mostly written and read by women, but at least in my part of the world the majority of the books for sale in the "science fiction and fantasy" shelves of the bookstores I go to are exactly these sort of romantic urban fantasies featuring vampires, werewolves, and other fantastic creatures in contemporary settings. If I'd go by the shelves in the bookstores, there are now a lot more "fantasies" written by and for women than there are male-oriented ones.

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Um, Twilight..

Fair point. Got any other examples?

I recognise that the Twilight viewer/readership is predominately women and some of those ladies really, and I mean really, love themselves an extended allegory for abstinence, sex within marriage with lustful, photogenic vampires but I feel like Twilight is the exception and not the rule. Not only in fantasy but within pop culture in general.

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@Lady Olenna: Aren't you married though? Don't get our little geeky male hearts up otherwise. :-)

Well,yes, apparently I got caught up in the moment :blushing:. The hubs just doesn't have the same inner "geek" that I do.

I think the True Blood series of books (I know that's not the correct title but it's slipped my mind) has a big female following. Not sure if that's urban fantasy though.

I never got into Twilight myself. Actually, I must admit I pretty much hated it. The really good looking guy that's always half naked is great but at the same time it's gross because he's way too young for me to think about like that so its kinda creepy. But I know a lot of females that love the books and have no idea that TLOTR movies were based on books.

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"Why is it that not many girls like Fantasy?"

Fantasy (in these days) = rape, killing, rape, killing, rape, rape, killing, rape etc.

Well, thats because you're not reading enough Dragonlance.

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For the most part, fantasy is not written for women. There are very few female characters I can relate with and once you add any kind of metal bikini to the mix, eyerolling is inevitable.

Speaking for myself, I guess my appreciation of fantasy is in proportion to my ability to care about the world and the story despite the fact that it is not written for me.

GRRM makes a great leap forward in this way but he still has a disturbing tendency to project penis envy on his female characters, which really pisses me off.

I think he speaks truly as how a Woman at Westeros (or middle ages) would feel about. Today woman can do pretty much everything that guys can do. But in the past (and in medieval stories like Game of thrones) women don't get as much opportunities If they were low born they'll would explored, if they were Highborn they would be sold at their parents convenience to make good political bounds. If she was lucky it would be a good husband, yet she would be mistreated in the sam fashion if not by him, by the society.

So you can see that some characters "envy penises" like Cersei, but this is only because she grew up beside Jaime, and bested him everytime as they were kids, and yet she had no say in her future, she could not be a knight, she could not choose who she would marry, she was trapped just because Jaime got the penis and not her. Araya also has "envy of dicks" in some degree we can see it when she talks with ned about her future. But we got to throw a bone to George Martin! Even in this difficult world for women there are strong women everywere playing the game of thrones like and sometimes better than man, and there are some that escape tha "fate" of a women of that time like Arya a girl of 11 that is becoming a assassin!

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I remember the covers of the older SF/Fantasy novels and magazines from way back where it was almost mandatory that a very skimply clad babe with very large breasts would adorn the cover - often regarless of what the stories were about. I could see how that image alone might be a major turnoff for female readers.

It was never a turnoff for me - sometimes the covers would make me roll my eyes; but I was used to covers sometimes not accurately reflecting the stories or novels. I was also a comic book reader. Later, in my more practical adult years, whenever I saw chain-mail bikinis or skimpy outfits on fantasy warrior women, I would wonder how they could fight with so much skin (and vital points) exposed to their enemies.

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It was never a turnoff for me - sometimes the covers would make me roll my eyes; but I was used to covers sometimes not accurately reflecting the stories or novels. I was also a comic book reader. Later, in my more practical adult years, whenever I saw chain-mail bikinis or skimpy outfits on fantasy warrior women, I would wonder how they could fight with so much skin (and vital points) exposed to their enemies.

Female Armor Sucks

(College Humor Video)

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I honestly think that part of it is that a lot of women don't know that some epic fantasy can really kick some ass. When I gave GoT to a female pal, she kind of winced and said, "I don't really think that's for me. It's for boys and men."

It could also be that women want to be able to relate to a strong female character in the stories they read. Robert Jordan, for example, has always turned me off with the way he writes women. I can't relate to a single one. I had the same issue with Anne Rice (a female author). That doesn't mean I need everything "girled up" for me. It means I want a woman to act like more than a spoiled princess, brat, idiot, c-word, nag or manipulative bitch. Arya is a great example of a great female character (though she is a child). She makes good decisions, bad decisions, is a survivor, has some great instincts.

I think the market is changing, though. I'm certainly counting on it. :)

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I think the whole geek stereotype isn't enough to explain why some just won't read fantasy.

I'm young, and therefore doesn't have as much experience regarding the evolution of the genre, but I have some thoughts on the subject in question. Urban fantasy isn't regarded as fantasy - fantasy (or "hardcore" fantasy) in the public eye. Epic fantasy is in my opinion what the average person think's of when they hear someone mention the genre. They think of Tolkien. They may think of fantastic tales for children, perhaps CS Lewis. If they've heard of ASoIAF or seen an episode of GoT, that may spring to their mind. They will not think of Twilight. Will they think of Harry Potter? Probably not at first, perhaps on a second thought.

I think like this because of how people around me react towards my own reading. My elder sister read fantasy during our upbringing, and I have made it my mission impossible to get her to read A Game of Thrones. She's no stranger to the fantasy genre. She's also extremely interested in literature, she reads all the time, she studies modern literature abroad. But she wont read ASoIAF, not even the first chapters. When she say she doesn't read fantasy, I'll say she did read Harry Potter. She replies that that was a long time ago, and besides, that's not the same thing, she wants some kind of connection to reality.

I think this is because the whole thing with a completely new world becomes too much in some way. Harry Potter doesn't have that. JKR uses our existing world, but she adds a lot of mystery to it, same as other writers of urban fantasy. Epic fantasy is a lot about world-building. A lot of people does not find this interesting, others may find it hard to understand, or illogical, or flat out ridiculous. Urban fantasy is easier, it uses magic, but the worldbuilding does not take a large role. You don't need to look at a map before you start reading, you don't have to learn about the currency system, and you most certainly don't have to unravel the new names of the months and week-days.

EDIT: Note that this is post is aimed to describe my views of people in general, men as well as women. Although that implies a lot of women as well, of course.

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