Why is it that not many girls like Fantasy?

[Sci-2]

I got out of bed just to reply to this one, because it's so crazy it's one of those things you have to share or your brain implodes.

According to her, if you're wearing an article of clothing and not lying down, its not sex.

So, if you do it standing up wearing a hat, that's not sex, according to the bible.

I'm serious.

She also thought Lord of the Rings was filled with hidden messages about Jesus. Not even in an allegory way(which is also funny if you've read JRRT opinion on allegory).

I'll let that simmer around in your brains for a bit while I sleep. I am not responsible if your head explodes.

I take back what I said about being disgusted. What kind of hats are we talking about here?

ETA: Baseball caps? Cowbow hats? Nacho-cowboy hat?

[karaddin]

Totally not a sexism thing. I just suspect every fan of thinking they are the Master Devious Manipulator of the Universe. You know, like Bakker does. I wouldn't want to sully any such person's space with the stink of normal fallible humanity. I think of my loathing of Bakker like my love for the film The Passions of Ayn Rand. It's kind of a hobby.

Bah some of us just love his world building, magic and metaphysical systems and the zany brothers inchoroi without sharing his personal quirks.

As for a e-dating component of weteros, my board crushes are all a long way from me :P

[Errant Bard]

EB, unless Kellhus gets skull-fucked in front of cheering crowds by a Serwe zombie wielding a Consult-modeled dildo while Akka pokes under a rock and is like "Look! It's my balls!" by the end the answer is the same.

So is it a bad or a good thing that in a recent dare, I made someone read PoN, and she ended agreeing with you? Hmmm, tricky.

According to her, if you're wearing an article of clothing and not lying down, its not sex.

So, if you do it standing up wearing a hat, that's not sex, according to the bible.

It gives a whole new meaning to that Joe Cocker song.

Sounds interesting, though. :leaving: (reminds me of a muslim friend who would insist that what was in his sandwich was chicken. His bacon cheese sandwich. It's not necessarily a crippling personality flaw ;))

[Shryke]

Speaking of that kind of thing, a love for Bakker would be a total deal-breaker for me.

Your breaking my heart here Raidne. :crying:

[Shryke]

I got out of bed just to reply to this one, because it's so crazy it's one of those things you have to share or your brain implodes.

According to her, if you're wearing an article of clothing and not lying down, its not sex.

So, if you do it standing up wearing a hat, that's not sex, according to the bible.

I'm serious.

She also thought Lord of the Rings was filled with hidden messages about Jesus. Not even in an allegory way(which is also funny if you've read JRRT opinion on allegory).

I'll let that simmer around in your brains for a bit while I sleep. I am not responsible if your head explodes.

So from behind, standing up with a pope hat?

I'm down.

[Errant Bard]

So from behind, standing up with a pope hat?

Dude, a bowler hat is the only option.

[Lady Olenna]

:shocked:

What version of the Bible was she reading?

A girl that pees on people when they sleep? :ack:

I have to agree that someone really obsessed with D&D and fantasy would be a turn off. Only because that level of obsession isn't healthy. But the average geek is certainly not a turn off.

I haven't read a lot of fantasy but from what I have read I seem to relate more to the male characters than the female and the "penis envy" doesn't bother me at all. Probably because on some level I know I've got some envy of my own. I do like strong female characters but I don't get upset when they aren't all written that way.

[PaulineMRoss]

[interrupting briefly...]

I did some (fairly superficial) research on this recently, viz. I went to the Wikipedia page that lists all 'fantasy authors' (by some definition, but including Meyer and the like) and did a quick tally on gender. Roughly one third were female to two thirds male, as best I could tell. So if a third of *authors* are female, that suggests that a similar proportion of *readers* is female, overall. You'd need to do a bit more work to find out how many are invested in epic fantasy only, and I'm too lazy.

[And now back to the hat discussion...]

[Guest Raidne]

Interesting. I doubt it. I literally know no women that read epic fantasy that I haven't met here.

[Lady Olenna]

Dude, a bowler hat is the only option.

And see, here I was envisioning an Eliza Doolittle hat from My Fair Lady. That would be doing with Style and Class.

If you're gonna sin you might as well look fabulous doing it.

[S John]

My thoughts went where AG's went - women (girls when we'd start reading this stuff, no?) don't really associate anything pleasant with guys who read fantasy. It's not exactly like developing a passion for classic film (or poetry, or acoustic guitar...).

On the other side of that coin, I am personally well aware of this. Even though you evolve with age to where you care less and less about what other people think about what you like and even though Sci Fi and Fantasy seem to be at an all time high level of acceptance in popular culture... I still probably wouldn't divulge my taste for the genre in a first date type scenario, or any initial introduction, really, unless it came up specifically.

In other words, outside of something like the BwB or a con or something where its a common link for all of us, I wouldn't want it to be a part of someone's very first impression of me. For one, it wouldn't be accurate for me to give that impression. But the big reason is exactly about the unpleasant associations that women may have about men who read fantasy. Its not like I'd hide it or anything, but ideally I'd want it to be a few bullet points down on the list so that when we get to that part its a small slice of the pie of someone who has a lot of other interests rather than 'OK, he reads fantasy novels' and going from there.

As for why many women don't like epic fantasy - I think its pretty transparent how some series' or authors out there would give them impression that it is not much more than escapism for boys. The sort of cliche fantasy plots of underdog or bullied farmboy who is unappreciated in life finds hidden power / courage / badass fighting ability he didn't know he had - saves world, nails hot princess, etc. Its very easy to me to see how that story-line specifically appeals to young males on the nerdy side of the adolescent social divide... things aren't as good now but one day, they will be! Not that there is anything wrong with that, but women are not really the target audience in stories like that, so their general disinterest is unsurprising. Of course a lot of Epic Fantasy that goes well beyond that. If it were only impoverished shepherd stories I'd have given up on it myself a log time ago, but while its changing I think the genre is still chipping away at that perception.

Someone brought up worldbuilding - I don't think it relates to women specifically, but I think its maybe a good example of why some people in general don't like fantasy. I DO like fantasy. SFF is probably my favorite genre and even I sometimes get fatigued and take long breaks from it. Worldbuilding is a huge part of what makes it great, but honestly it can be a bit taxing to re-learn a new world with every new series. Throw in a few cringe-worthy names and I've already begun second-guessing whether or not I can actually recommend this to someone no matter how great it turns out to be. Only a few authors are able to introduce a completely new world painlessly and those are generally the ones I'll recommend to someone who doesn't normally read SFF. If it takes some work, I keep it on the backburner until I can assess how nerdy that person is willing to get.

[Guest Raidne]

Naked except for a bowler hat = Lena Olin. It is known. Can't find any data on the number of female readers of epic fantasy. A Google search brings up this page.

[Guest Raidne]

John - I just tell people I read stuff with swords and dragons and shit. This is not really a problem in the straight female dating world, and what do any of my friends really care? I have never once tried to get a female friend to read any fantasy or SF though, except one coworker AGES ago that I gave my copy of The Dispossessed to. I honestly thought she'd be into that kind of thing, but I'm pretty sure she just thought I was weird.

[Lyanna Stark]

My thoughts went where AG's went - women (girls when we'd start reading this stuff, no?) don't really associate anything pleasant with guys who read fantasy. It's not exactly like developing a passion for classic film (or poetry, or acoustic guitar...).

Just as a folloup commentary to this:

I've almost always read fantasy and epic fantasy and have got a lot of flak from female friends over the years due to it. My mother complained a lot about it actually since she was worried I sent too much time on stuff that was not "realistic".

Female friends have also been quite judgemental and basically pressed books on me that they considered more "proper", i.e. mostly romances.

So to answer the OP: one reason women don't read epic fantasy is because there is a possibility we get slagged off for it. I stood my ground, but then I am generally known to be quite an obnoxious and most unwomanly sort of person, :)

There are other reasons, of course, but I think this one should at least be on the list. There is strong peer pressure to read or appreciate other stuff.

EDIT: Wow, did it take three pages for this to turn into another Bakker thread? :lol:

[Alytha]

Could we please make a distinction between Urban Fantasy and Vampire/Werewolf Porn?

To me, Urban Fantasy is things like Harry Dresden, the Matthew Swift novels, Rivers of London, etc...(or does that have a different drawer nowadays?)

I know quite a number of women here who read fantasy. Strangely enough, only 2 of them are married (to geeks). So maybe we are in a sad sad situation where men find fantasy-reading women unattractive, and vice-versa? Or the demographic in this country just sucks.

[S John]

John - I just tell people I read stuff with swords and dragons and shit. This is not really a problem in the straight female dating world, and what do any of my friends really care? I have never once tried to get a female friend to read any fantasy or SF though, except one coworker AGES ago that I gave my copy of The Dispossessed to. I honestly thought she'd be into that kind of thing, but I'm pretty sure she just thought I was weird.

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say its a problem for straight males either. Ultimately you wouldn't want to be with someone who would actually reject you on that basis anyway. But unless I KNOW going in that I have that in common with someone, I'll keep the convo pretty light on the dragons 'n stuff.

[Kalbear]

P.S, This board really needs an e-dating function

They're called 'cons', Mandy. Or if you're impatient, 'board meet-ups'.

It's odd about books and whatnot, because I think that's what it comes down to - there are a lot of fantasy fans who really like reading as their mainstream, cheesy as fuckall entertainment. If you think about it, most fantasy/scifi isn't much more advanced plotwise than Transformers, save with occasional rape demons or something like that and NC-17 ratings. Mieville, I'm sure, has tons of theories of why women aren't flocking to traditional fantasy (it might be because women are about as objectified as magic swords in the best of the lot and are worse in the others), but my guess is that for the most part it's that only some odd subset of people in general have this desire to read shitty books, but their appetite is tremendous for those shitty books. Books where characterization, plot and anything close to long words are eschewed in favor of odd concepts like worldbuilding, cheesy dialog and plot holes that the writers of Lost would be ashamed of.

I count myself as one of those people who have a desire to read shitty books. Damned if I know why.

[Lyanna Stark]

Could we please make a distinction between Urban Fantasy and Vampire/Werewolf Porn?

To me, Urban Fantasy is things like Harry Dresden, the Matthew Swift novels, Rivers of London, etc...(or does that have a different drawer nowadays?)

I know quite a number of women here who read fantasy. Strangely enough, only 2 of them are married (to geeks). So maybe we are in a sad sad situation where men find fantasy-reading women unattractive, and vice-versa? Or the demographic in this country just sucks.

It's just hard to draw the line. Where does Urban Fantasy stop and Vampire/Werewolf porn start? I personally think Kim Harrison's "Hollows" series is the former, while Kelley Armstrong's "Bitten" werewolf stuff should end up in Vampire/Werewolf porn, but that's my division and other people may make other ones.

As for the second paragraph, yes, I think there is a stigma for women who read fantasy, at least up to a point.

I count myself as one of those people who have a desire to read shitty books. Damned if I know why.

Great! I got fed up with "Twilight" so how about you have a stab at "New Moon"? :lol: I have to admit tho, my desire for shitty book reading is much lessened after the Twilight read. It covered this year's shite and maybe a bit of next year's too.

[Shryke]

I've almost always read fantasy and epic fantasy and have got a lot of flak from female friends over the years due to it. My mother complained a lot about it actually since she was worried I sent too much time on stuff that was not "realistic".

This isn't even specific to women. There's a general sort of stink-eye given to stuff that isn't "realistic". Funnily, the more seriously you take your lack of "realism", the worse the stink-eye becomes.

[Lummel]

Naked except for a bowler hat = Lena Olin. It is known. Can't find any data on the number of female readers of epic fantasy. A Google search brings up this page.

In a previous thread Eloisa I think came up with some figures that suggested it was fairly equal and growing with more women reading fantasy and more men SF.

But maybe I'm misremembering, still haven't had first coffee of the day yet.