Why is it that not many girls like Fantasy?

[Shryke]

I know this is pure wishful thinking but I'd love if every author wrote under gender neutral pen names. In fact let me extend that to every artist in general.

They basically do.

Only you are making you give a shit about what sex or race or whatever an author is.

[Galactus]

I'm curious where do you put Death Note. It's the only anime I've ever liked.

It should be noted that while these are separated by gender, it's to some degree a publishing term. (and then there's stuff that's published outside the big publications)

Death Note is usually classified as for older boys/men though.

[polishgenius]

So here's one shitty vaguely evopsych idea (though it is really about society) - I think that men from an early age are taught and encouraged to dominate something. To be the best at something. To win at something. And women, less so; women, I would bet, are encouraged to support something.

Which means that for men it is encouraged to have that monomaniacal focus on that one thing in order to rule it. Having the biggest collection, knowing the most rules, showing the most cheer, being the best American. I don't think that is pushed as much on women in the us. Which speaks somewhat to datepalm's idea of social legitimacy but also says a bit more about why.

I was absolutely thinking this yesterday because of a discussion I was having about the popularity of the Hunger Games movie, and it made me think: that movie's breaking box-office records by the barrelfull (highest non-sequel midnight open, highest non-summer or holiday opening day, highest ever spring opening weekend, and other stuff, also becoming the first film since Avatar to make 4 weeks consecutive at the top), but while the movie itself is being talked about, I hadn't really seen any mention of those facts before I went to look it up on box office mojo. Whereas when a guy-focused film is raking in that kind of money I read mentions of it all the time.

Like when The Dark Knight earned a ridiculous amount of money at the UK box office, it was headline news in national papers, but when Mama Mia beat it, yes the film was talked about, but the money was only mentioned in the context of 'I can't believe that tripe is beating TDK' - including, admittedly, by me.

[Solmyr]

Death Note is usually classified as for older boys/men though.

Yay, imma big boy!

[Sci-2]

Mama Mia was awesome. It is known.

[Shryke]

Mamma Mia beat out TDK in ticket sales? Whaaa?

Did you see Pierce Brosnan's chest hair? You know that sold out thousands of theatres a week.

[polishgenius]

Mamma Mia beat out TDK in ticket sales? Whaaa?

It did in the UK. Nowhere remotely near in America.

[DocStrange]

They basically do.

Only you are making you give a shit about what sex or race or whatever an author is.

Hmmm. I can't agree with that. This thread has made me give a shit about what ever sex the author is of the book I'm reading. The amount of column inches dedicated to these discussions will permeate your thinking (or at least it has mine), just the same as any heavily discussed issue. I don't exist in a solipsistic paradise where stereotypes and media reinforced images don't influence me.

[Shryke]

Hmmm. I can't agree with that. This thread has made me give a shit about what ever sex the author is of the book I'm reading. The amount of column inches dedicated to these discussions will permeate your thinking (or at least it has mine), just the same as any heavily discussed issue. I don't exist in a solipsistic paradise where stereotypes and media reinforced images don't influence me.

Exactly my point. You just said you never thought of it till now.

[polishgenius]

Silly brits.

The Golden Compass earned almost as much here on its own as it did in America. Apparently our taste in films is... dodgy.

Mind you, it did make for a hilarious (but unfortunate for the people actually invested emotionally in a sequel) situation where New Line sold the foreign rights for a relatively small lump sum pre-production, and therefore saw barely a cent of the relatively huge international haul, thus failing to recoup its production costs on a film that eventually returned 200mil or so over its budget.

It was also what led to the end of New Line's existence as an independent entity. Now that's a bad business decision.

[polishgenius]

Interesting. But then, I loved the Golden Compass books.

So did I.

The film, not so much. Though tbh it wasn't bad, it was just totally meh.

[TrackerNeil]

And this is exactly what kind of female character I want to see. Are you arguing semantics here? I can't have a strong female character that does the things you mention above without turning people off because I put "female" in between "strong" and "character?"

I'm not arguing anything, except that "strong" does not have to mean kick-ass.

[DocStrange]

Exactly my point. You just said you never thought of it till now.

Because I am not impervious to a world full of stereotypes and generalisations. Let me put it this way; stereotypes affect us all, so picking up a book and seeing that the author is white or black, male or female etc may, subconsciously at least, factor into the decision making process merely by virtue of the fact we live in a world populated by crude and antiquated stereotypes.

Secondly my point was intended to express my desire for art to be consumed in a vacum. The personal story of the artist, including their race, gender etc is, at least to me, utterly irrelevant to my enjoyment of said art. That said a huge amount of time and effort is spent discussing their background, gender etc (admittedly far less so in literature when compared with music) and these issues eventually permeate our collective thinking and factor into the decision making process.

So for example the point has been raised in this thread that men struggle to write compelling, three dimensional female characters. Is there some merit to this point? I think so. Should it factor in to the next fantasy book I purchase? No. Making every artist gender neutral and basically anonymous would remove this possibility entirely as I, the consumer would have no idea if the book was written by a man or a woman.

[delete this account pls]

Outside of this board and my immediate family, I don't know any people at all who read fantasy, male or female. Hell, most of my friends don't read that much at all beyond the newspaper, and the ones that do stick mostly to auto-biographies and the like.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Everybody likes everything except boys don't like female lead characters - hell, remember the trashing Monza took in this forum? I can't even remember who I was arguing with, but I still detest you. Probably FLOW, but that's just a statistical likelihood.

For some strange reason, I seriously take that as a compliment. I don't even know why.

But no, I don't even know who Monza is. Now, if you want me to go off on a female lead (sort of) character, then a good starting point is with Dianora,

the collaborationist bitch from Tigana who deserved infinitely worse than she got....

ETA: Well, out of sheer curiousity, I googled "Monza", and all I came up with was this:

http://www.amazon.co...f/dp/0967302501

Holy. Fuck. Confessional women's poetry? Oh yeah, that shit's right up my alley. Otherwise, my two best friends are both into SF/Fantasy, and my wife even reads some too. So I guess I'm lucky.

[Grack21]

The Golden Compass earned almost as much here on its own as it did in America. Apparently our taste in films is... dodgy.

Mind you, it did make for a hilarious (but unfortunate for the people actually invested emotionally in a sequel) situation where New Line sold the foreign rights for a relatively small lump sum pre-production, and therefore saw barely a cent of the relatively huge international haul, thus failing to recoup its production costs on a film that eventually returned 200mil or so over its budget.

It was also what led to the end of New Line's existence as an independent entity. Now that's a bad business decision.

Hey, I liked that movie, and I live in America!

And I really liked the first book.

I hated the second so much I never read the third. Which kind of makes me glad they cut the ending the way they did. I can pretend that shit pile never happened.

OK I'm derailing.

It's kind of disturbing to see a lot the stereotypes associated with fantasy being echoed around here. EPic Fantasy is FOR MEN. GIRLS DON'T RIGHT EPIC FANTASY!

I could throw my Hardcover Crown of Stars books at you if you like.

[S John]

For some strange reason, I seriously take that as a compliment. I don't even know why.

But no, I don't even know who Monza is. Now, if you want me to go off on a female lead (sort of) character, then a good starting point is with Dianora,

the collaborationist bitch from Tigana who deserved infinitely worse than she got....

ETA: Well, out of sheer curiousity, I googled "Monza", and all I came up with was this:

http://www.amazon.co...f/dp/0967302501

Holy. Fuck. Confessional women's poetry? Oh yeah, that shit's right up my alley. Otherwise, my two best friends are both into SF/Fantasy, and my wife even reads some too. So I guess I'm lucky.

No, not that Monza. :lol:

Raidne is referring to a fictional female lead in one of Abercrombie's books. .... Best Served Cold maybe? Anyway, I don't usually read the lit forums so if she took a thrashing I was unaware of it. I don't recall having a problem with her though. I liked that book.

[Grack21]

That Fantasy Mistressworks is pretty good.

Except ...Anne Bishop and the Outlander lady? Two of the most misogynistic authors alive.

Anne Bishop has more rape in one book then Bakker does in all his work. No joke.

Outlander...that's another thread. My problems with that book....I could write a thesis.

Other then those the one I've read on that list are all good. Hmm I should count.....hold on a sec.

Well, 7 not including the two mentioned above. A have several on the TBR pile though.

Moon I wouldn't read because of...political reasons.

[Datepalm]

I think BSC is least well regarded of Abercrombies books, or the least talked about, at least, but thats both my own opinion (I did like Monza though) and a very vague general sense. I mean, I think it genuinely had some pacing and structural issues and stuff, so it's hard to say that it's becuase it has a female lead. (Still a damn enjoybale book, mind.)

I actually agree with FLOW on Dianora in Tigana, though I haven't finished the book. Still. Becuase it's fascistic great man wagnerian crap with bonus bloat and purple prose. But I will, dammit, I will so I can make a really excoriating goodreads review. I have a purpose in life.

[Lyanna Stark]

Manga for Girls (from tv tropes);

It tends to have female leads, romantic subplots and resolutions involving personal growth. This doesn't mean Shojo is devoid of action, though. In addition to more traditional romance stories, Shoujo can include tales of heroines who kick righteous butt — while pursuing romantic subplots and personal growth.

And that, IMO, is why girls much rather read Twilight then they would Lord of the Rings, because something about these tropes seems hardwired into us.

Have you actually read Twilight? You are doing the female oriented Manga a great disservice, and I say that while I think a lot of it has its fair share of problems.

Twilight's action does not involve the female heroine in any other way than that she gets captured, or that someone whisks her away. Bella Swann is never active, not even once. Twilight is an abomination of a book, and I believe it should not be used as shorthand for "stuff women like" but for "really atrocious stuff nobody should like".

It's not possible to comprehend how vile and rotten it really is without reading it (I just dragged myself throught it).

I think BSC is least well regarded of Abercrombies books, or the least talked about, at least, but thats both my own opinion (I did like Monza though) and a very vague general sense. I mean, I think it genuinely had some pacing and structural issues and stuff, so it's hard to say that it's becuase it has a female lead. (Still a damn enjoybale book, mind.)

I think one of the reasons it is less talked about is that it has a female protagonist. Personally I thought "The Heroes" had far more pacing issues, but it seems higher regarded (or maybe it's just because it's newer). I liked "Best Served Cold" better than "The Heroes" and almost as much as "The First Law".

Monza the character is really, really interesting though, and it's surprising she's getting as little attention as she does. She's 1/3rd bitterness, 1/3rd ambition and 1/3rd steel. She combines hard and soft power and manage things on the sex/romance/whatever you want to call it -front that is normally securely reserved for male characters. Hell, she's not even really pretty, but still charismatic.

In light of the recent discussion of Cersei as an ambitious, ruthless woman who tries to step outside the patriarchy, I think in some ways, Monza is what Cersei could have been.