Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

So that last post covers my interpretation (with much borrowing from Apple Martini) of the Dragon who has three heads. But that still leaves the question of AA/AAR and the PWWP, whether they're the same, whether they are said dragon, etc. So I guess this will be my attempt at fitting together all the little bits that we've all been coming up with so far.

First, I think we need to go back to the versions of the prophecy where each promised person/thing is named specifically, and pay really close attention to language. One thing to keep in mind through all of this is that dragon = person, not literal dragon.

1.Azor Ahai: Melisandre of Asshai is the biggest proponent of this “version” of the prophecy, specifically using this term over the “PWWP”. The eastern origin of this version of the prophecy is evident in the use of the “z” which is some weird Ghiscari thing. (See all the crazy multi-z names from Meereen and Astapor that I can’t for the life of me spell.) Bottom line here is that I think the AA version of the prophecy has a Ghiscari/Asshai root, as opposed to a Valyrian one. There are a few characteristics of AA that are only associated with the term AA, rather than PWWP. The story of the forging of Lightbringer, Nissa Nissa, and the necessity of two kings dying to wake the dragon, are the biggest ones I can think of off the top of my head. I ascribe the two kings specifically to AA because that comes out of Mel’s mouth. Given the unique qualities of the AA/AAR version of the prophecy, I’m going to assume for now that a seer of either Asshai or ancient Ghiscar independently originated this prophecy, rather than hearing and adapting it from the Valyrian.

Mel never says that a sacrifice must be performed to awaken AA. As far as she knows, AA is reborn and standing in front of her in the form of Stannis. Sacrifices are to awaken dragons. Another piece missing from her puzzle is a real Lightbringer as well. The dragon that needs to be awakened is Jon.

2. This brings me to the PWWP version, which is the one favored by the Targaryens, and seems to have a Valyrian origin. It’s hinted that the seer who independently originated the Valyrian version is the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen, whose fragmented prophecies are recorded in the book Signs and Portents, and this seems to be the source that the Targaryens primarily draw from and reference throughout the series. Aemon in his pre-death speech talks about the misinterpretation of the word “prince” because of the gender neutrality of the world dragon.

So the promised prince is interchangable with promised dragon...who is Jon.

3. The Last Hero: this is the most unfounded, because we have so little information. But the LH seems to be the First Man version of this savior prophecy, because he too saved the world from the darkness. This is in my mind absolutely Bran.

I don't think these three are supposed to be the same person at all. Nor do I think they're supposed to be three different people. They're two different people(?) AA and the Last Hero are the same, they are Bran. And once again, because redundancy is fun, Jon is the dragon is the PWWP.

Where's Lightbringer? Also Jon

The AA prophecy orginated among a people who didn't give a crap about dragons (unless they were being conquered with them). As far as we know, neither the people of Asshai nor the Ghiscari were dragon lords, why would they describe anything of huge importance in their prophecy as a dragon. However, they have this special sword which pushes back the darkness. It needed to be forged three times, and the dragon (conspicuously absent from this version of the prophecy) has three heads.

Jon's Targaryen crown was gained through Rhaegar. His mother was Lyanna, promised to Robert Baratheon, who agreed to become the figurehead of the rebellion because he wanted her back. Ironically, the union of Rhaegar and Lyann, which made Jon and gave him his crown, also ultimately lost him his crown when Robert took the throne. The union of fire and ice is water.

His Northern crown was gained through Robb and lost because of Lions, who had Robb stabbed and threw into question the entire viability and legitimacy of the northern independence movement.

Crown and forging number three have yet to be shown, but we know this is the one that's supposed to stick. So using the parameters that Bran is AA, and Jon is LB, Bran is the one who has to sacrifice something dear to keep Lightbringer from breaking. This sacrifice won't be Jon's. I do really like the idea that the the whole prophecy was already fulfilled and Nissa Nissa was Lyanna, but there's no way to make that theory and this one jive, though Jon is LB in both. So just working within the rules of this theory, it seems that Jon isn't just going to survive his wounds. Bran is going to have to reawaken him by sacrificing something very dear to himself. I have no idea what this could be. Is Bran's love for Meera remotely developed enough for her to be the sacrifice? Of course, subversion of prophesy says that the sacrifice isn't even a love interest, so what is it that Bran values most and would be something he could give up to save Jon?

[Dragonfish]

From what I can remember though (dont feel like looking it up again right now) The targaryan prophecy comes from a dream that the Targ princess has in Old Valarya a feww hundred years ago.

It could be that the girl just had a vision that expands on the much older AA legend, but I think it is a different prophecy altogether.

No, as I said, Aenar Targaryen's daughter is not the source of the PWWP prophecy (or at least, if she is, we don't know it yet). We don't know yet where the PWWP prophecy comes from.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What if AA is the dragon that must be awoken and Melisandre, being Melisandre, crossed her wires?

[Eyron]

Someone who never saw ice would maybe see it as stone? Someone frozen - someone petrified?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

What if AA is the dragon that must be awoken and Melisandre, being Melisandre, crossed her wires?

I'm all for taking everything that comes out of Mel's mouth and throwing it out the window. I just realized that the AA prophecy was first related to us in its entirety by Salladhor Saan, to Daavos. It's in this telling that we get the story of the forging of Lightbringer and the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa. I find Saan a more reliable narrator than Mel because he isn't invested, and he sounds like he's just retelling a widely known eastern story of a hero. The reliability of the original AA story is enhanced now that it doesn't come from Mel. It's weird that there's not a single mention of dragons in the AA story, and not a single mention of a sword in the PWWP stories. If we're assuming that the two versions tell the same overall prophecy, then why are they missing critical components from one another? (ETA: And I'm of course arguing that they're not missing the other's critical component because Lightbringer and the promised dragon/prince are one and the same and the stand alone is AA)

Maybe Melisandre's problem is that she's conflating the two accounts in ways that suit her preconceived notions.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Oh, wonderful thoughts all you clever peoples! Some thoughts of my own:

What if the prophecised smoke wasn't steam from the hot springs at Winterfell, but the white mist brought by the White Walkers? That's alot closer to Jon than the hot springs, and it does have the effect of bringing people back to life, or something near it. That revival would also keep Mel out of the equation, which would make me very happy because I am not a Mel fan.

I also vote for Eddard and Robb being the two kings. Eddard may not have been recognized as a king during his lifetime, but 5,000 years ago when the prophecy was made, a seer seeing the Lord of Winterfell would have seen a King. But more import, if Eddard and/or Robb were alive -- that is, if there were a Stark at Winterfell -- there wouldn't be any need for Azor Ahai or the Prince That Was Promised, because the chosen Guardians of the North and Kings of Winter would be there to defend against any icy peril.

Even though Jon is called Snow and has renounced lands and title by taking the Night's Watch oath, he's still of Eddard Stark's blood. In Westeros, "words are wind" but blood is magic, and at the end of ADWD, he was the Stark in the North. He's the person Alys Karstark ran to when she needed protection from someone in the North, and afaic, Jon's the only person who has the big picture and is trying to reconcile competing interests for the welfare of all. That's what Lords and Kings are supposed to do. So, Jon gets my vote for AA (which I believed anyway, from Mel's visions, which I think are being manipulated by BR, and what the hell, TPTWP too).

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

If Jon is AA and the NW is Lighbringer, I wonder what the forging events are supposed to correspond to.

[Tewks44]

Someone who never saw ice would maybe see it as stone? Someone frozen - someone petrified?

forgive me for being slow, but who is the "someone frozen - someone petrified" you're talking about.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Jon is AA and the NW is Lighbringer, I wonder what the forging events are supposed to correspond to.

This was our stab ...

The water is the ice that the Wall is made of -> the Night's Watch built the Wall to "temper"/strengthen itself.

The lion is a symbol of worldly pride and possession -> the Night's Watch men vow to win no glory.

Nissa Nissa is a symbol of celibacy -> the Night's Watch men vow to take no wives.

Meaning, it wasn't enough to have just a group of guys, if there was no boundary. Nor was it enough to have a group of guys on the Wall, if the guys were still holding down old family titles and riding off to fight in wars whenever they felt like it. Nor was it enough to have a group of guys who'd given up all claims to titles on the Wall, if they still retained love and devotion to their wives and families. So they had to build the Wall and renounce titles and take no wives.

When Sam says the part of the vow that opens the Black Gate, the parts about winning no glory and taking no wife aren't said, but the gate opens anyway. Theory is that what Sam said is actually the original vow ("I am the sword in the darkness ...") and the other parts were added later.

forgive me for being slow, but who is the "someone frozen - someone petrified" you're talking about.

I assume Jon, if he's comatose and stashed in an ice cell.

[Cryler]

So that last post covers my interpretation (with much borrowing from Apple Martini) of the Dragon who has three heads. But that still leaves the question of AA/AAR and the PWWP, whether they're the same, whether they are said dragon, etc. So I guess this will be my attempt at fitting together all the little bits that we've all been coming up with so far.

First, I think we need to go back to the versions of the prophecy where each promised person/thing is named specifically, and pay really close attention to language. One thing to keep in mind through all of this is that dragon = person, not literal dragon.

1.Azor Ahai: Melisandre of Asshai is the biggest proponent of this “version” of the prophecy, specifically using this term over the “PWWP”. The eastern origin of this version of the prophecy is evident in the use of the “z” which is some weird Ghiscari thing. (See all the crazy multi-z names from Meereen and Astapor that I can’t for the life of me spell.) Bottom line here is that I think the AA version of the prophecy has a Ghiscari/Asshai root, as opposed to a Valyrian one. There are a few characteristics of AA that are only associated with the term AA, rather than PWWP. The story of the forging of Lightbringer, Nissa Nissa, and the necessity of two kings dying to wake the dragon, are the biggest ones I can think of off the top of my head. I ascribe the two kings specifically to AA because that comes out of Mel’s mouth. Given the unique qualities of the AA/AAR version of the prophecy, I’m going to assume for now that a seer of either Asshai or ancient Ghiscar independently originated this prophecy, rather than hearing and adapting it from the Valyrian.

Mel never says that a sacrifice must be performed to awaken AA. As far as she knows, AA is reborn and standing in front of her in the form of Stannis. Sacrifices are to awaken dragons. Another piece missing from her puzzle is a real Lightbringer as well. The dragon that needs to be awakened is Jon.

2. This brings me to the PWWP version, which is the one favored by the Targaryens, and seems to have a Valyrian origin. It’s hinted that the seer who independently originated the Valyrian version is the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen, whose fragmented prophecies are recorded in the book Signs and Portents, and this seems to be the source that the Targaryens primarily draw from and reference throughout the series. Aemon in his pre-death speech talks about the misinterpretation of the word “prince” because of the gender neutrality of the world dragon.

So the promised prince is interchangable with promised dragon...who is Jon.

3. The Last Hero: this is the most unfounded, because we have so little information. But the LH seems to be the First Man version of this savior prophecy, because he too saved the world from the darkness. This is in my mind absolutely Bran.

I don't think these three are supposed to be the same person at all. Nor do I think they're supposed to be three different people. They're two different people(?) AA and the Last Hero are the same, they are Bran. And once again, because redundancy is fun, Jon is the dragon is the PWWP.

Where's Lightbringer? Also Jon

The AA prophecy orginated among a people who didn't give a crap about dragons (unless they were being conquered with them). As far as we know, neither the people of Asshai nor the Ghiscari were dragon lords, why would they describe anything of huge importance in their prophecy as a dragon. However, they have this special sword which pushes back the darkness. It needed to be forged three times, and the dragon (conspicuously absent from this version of the prophecy) has three heads.

Jon's Targaryen crown was gained through Rhaegar. His mother was Lyanna, promised to Robert Baratheon, who agreed to become the figurehead of the rebellion because he wanted her back. Ironically, the union of Rhaegar and Lyann, which made Jon and gave him his crown, also ultimately lost him his crown when Robert took the throne. The union of fire and ice is water.

His Northern crown was gained through Robb and lost because of Lions, who had Robb stabbed and threw into question the entire viability and legitimacy of the northern independence movement.

Crown and forging number three have yet to be shown, but we know this is the one that's supposed to stick. So using the parameters that Bran is AA, and Jon is LB, Bran is the one who has to sacrifice something dear to keep Lightbringer from breaking. This sacrifice won't be Jon's. I do really like the idea that the the whole prophecy was already fulfilled and Nissa Nissa was Lyanna, but there's no way to make that theory and this one jive, though Jon is LB in both. So just working within the rules of this theory, it seems that Jon isn't just going to survive his wounds. Bran is going to have to reawaken him by sacrificing something very dear to himself. I have no idea what this could be. Is Bran's love for Meera remotely developed enough for her to be the sacrifice? Of course, subversion of prophesy says that the sacrifice isn't even a love interest, so what is it that Bran values most and would be something he could give up to save Jon?

I thought Maester Aemon said the Valyrian word used was gender neutral and was assumed to be Pince=Male instead of Princess=Female.

So shouldn't the checklist read:

Azor Ahai = Jon

The Princess that was Promised = Dany

The Last Hero = Bran

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I thought Maester Aemon said the Valyrian word used was gender neutral and was assumed to be Pince=Male instead of Princess=Female.

So shouldn't the checklist read:

Azor Ahai = Jon

The Princess that was Promised = Dany

The Last Hero = Bran

Not if you believe that at the end of the day, Dany's a red herring and isn't really anything.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I thought Maester Aemon said the Valyrian word used was gender neutral and was assumed to be Pince=Male instead of Princess=Female.

So shouldn't the checklist read:

Azor Ahai = Jon

The Princess that was Promised = Dany

The Last Hero = Bran

Aemon just figures out that Dany has dragons and decides that it should be princess, not prince. He doesn't necessarily have to be correct. I understand why Dany will be the popular choice for AA among most readers, there's plenty of evidence. I just like the other theories better and I thinks she's too obvious and literal a fulfillment.

[Cryler]

Or you could believe that the Last Hero being the First men version of the prophecy requires a descendant of the First Men. And the Prince/Princess that was Promised is the Valyrian version requiring a Valyrian. While the Azor Ahai version could be the bloodlines of ice and fire coming together as Azor Ahai.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or you could believe that the Last Hero being the First men version of the prophecy requires a descendant of the First Men. And the Prince/Princess that was Promised is the Valyrian version requiring a Valyrian. While the Azor Ahai version could be the bloodlines of ice and fire coming together as Azor Ahai.

I think it's all referring to one person, seen through difference cultural perspectives. I frankly hate the idea of every religion getting its own little Stepford Savior.

[Cryler]

Me too. But where is the fun if we all agree all the time. And I've been wanting it to be Jon for the last 12 years.

[Ygrain]

forgive me for being slow, but who is the "someone frozen - someone petrified" you're talking about.

Possibly someone who was seen in visions growing numb and cold, like ice, and who even saw himself in a dream, encased in an armour of black ice. Also, it's the hottest candidate for being stashed amidst smoked ham and salted bacon for the time being, as Apple Martini has said above :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Possibly someone who was seen in visions growing numb and cold, like ice, and who even saw himself in a dream, encased in an armour of black ice. Also, it's the hottest candidate for being stashed amidst smoked ham and salted bacon for the time being, as Apple Martini has said above :D

Damn it now I want a bacon-and-cheese panini.

[Bushido]

Also,Asshai people may not be dragon lords,but they do have dragons (Bran's first vision)

In same vision,Bran sees Jon,but I don't think his visions are of future.

[Sevumar]

This was our stab ...

The water is the ice that the Wall is made of -> the Night's Watch built the Wall to "temper"/strengthen itself.

The lion is a symbol of worldly pride and possession -> the Night's Watch men vow to win no glory.

Nissa Nissa is a symbol of celibacy -> the Night's Watch men vow to take no wives.

Meaning, it wasn't enough to have just a group of guys, if there was no boundary. Nor was it enough to have a group of guys on the Wall, if the guys were still holding down old family titles and riding off to fight in wars whenever they felt like it. Nor was it enough to have a group of guys who'd given up all claims to titles on the Wall, if they still retained love and devotion to their wives and families. So they had to build the Wall and renounce titles and take no wives.

While I think this is a clever way to piece together the information, I'm not convinced that it works. All those restrictions and measures have not strengthed the Night's Watch; instead, they seem to play a role in its weakness. Now, we don't have any confirmation that parts of the vows were added at different times in history, but it looks like the Night's Watch is going the way of the Catholic Church. It's an organization few would join willingly because the restrictions are so rigid and there's little hope of meaningful advancement. It's become an organization of criminals, rebels, and people facing lives bleaker than the prospect of life at the Wall. Those qualities, combined with the small number of Watchmen don't exactly inspire confidence in the institution.

The other thing that seems odd to me about this interpretation is that it stacks a metaphorical interpretation upon a metaphorical interpretation. By the time you accept that Lightbringer is symbolic of anything that might be used to fight the Others, like the Night's Watch, asking someone to make the other three connections seems like an impossibly high hurdle.

It seems to me that the function of the AA prophecy is threefold: to keep the memory of an ancient hero alive, to spread word of the signs pointing to his return, and to give a series of criteria by which the returned AA can be identified. If the pieces of information conveyed by this detail must be abstracted to this degree to find any meaning, the prophecy can't fulfill one of its most important functions.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

A lot of people believe that Lightbringer has to be reforged for AA Reborn, but I don't believe that's so. The prophecy states:

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

I interpret this to mean the sword is ready and waiting for Azor Ahai reborn, all he's got to do is pull it from the fire, the way Stannis did at the burning of the Seven at Dragonstone. So searching for the three ways to temper the sword, or looking for Nissa Nissa, is unnecessary. Now, where someone would find an 8,000 year-old flaming sword, that's a mystery.