Cheese Pudding Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 GiveMeSomeSnow's idea that JON = Lightbringer is AMAZING.This.Excellent thread. Robert doomed Westeros when he killed Rhaegar, lol.Some days ago I read a post by Apple Martini in which she (he?) said that Lightbringer could be the Night's Watch. I liked that, but if Jon represented all the Night's Watch then it's even better. And why not Lightbringer and TPTWP?Changing the subject a bit (and talking of acrackpot theory), what if the Wall represents the 'stone' and Jon's rebirth 'waking the dragon'?Bran dreamedHe saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from himJon is at the Wall and dying/dead. And even if the Wall is not considered stone, maybe Jon beeing frozen represents it. Something frost is almost stone. The problem is that I can't see any connection with the ""Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris999 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Not that this matters, Rheagar dies at the Trident first, King Aerys the mad King is suposedly killed by Jaime, makiing for a few moments, baby Aegon king. Does this fit into this?I guess it depends on how literal you want to take the prophecy. If TPTWP has to be a literal prince, then it cant be Jon Snow, because he was a king the moment he was born. He was never a prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 The idea of Lyanna as Nissa Nissa is what made me start think this might be possible.And since I'm going crack pot I might as well go all the way ;) ....AA of legend tried to forge Lightbringer three times. He failed the first two times. Only when he destroyed the thing he loved most did he succeed.Rhaegar had two children with Elia. It is very likely he never loved her, theirs was an arranged political marriage.Jon is Rhaegar's third child. By Lyanna, who he loved(?) enough to incite rebellion and cause the downfall of his entire house. This child ultimately caused her death.And when Jon takes his vow, he says, "I am the sword in the darkness." So Apple Martini is right, but not Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, that would be "we are the Sword." Lightbringer is a member of the Night's Watch, and now its leader - Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess it depends on how literal you want to take the prophecy.If TPTWP has to be a literal prince, then it cant be Jon Snow, because he was a king the moment he was born. He was never a prince.Well, Queen Elizabeth used to refer to herself as a "prince." Just sayin'.Okay, for those of you who think that Jon can't be AA, what do you make of Melisandre's visions, where she asks to see her king, and AA, but "all she sees is Snow?" Is she seeing a true vision of Jon as AA, or is she asking the wrong question because she asks for the king (I believe Jon to be the surviving trueborn son of Rhaegar), or is she having a Mel meltdown?(Actually, I have a crackpot theory that Bloodraven is messing with her, and enjoying every minute of it, but that's beside the point.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris999 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Well, Queen Elizabeth used to refer to herself as a "prince." Just sayin'.Okay, for those of you who think that Jon can't be AA, what do you make of Melisandre's visions, where she asks to see her king, and AA, but "all she sees is Snow?" Is she seeing a true vision of Jon as AA, or is she asking the wrong question because she asks for the king (I believe Jon to be the surviving trueborn son of Rhaegar), or is she having a Mel meltdown?(Actually, I have a crackpot theory that Bloodraven is messing with her, and enjoying every minute of it, but that's beside the point.)I agree. I think it is because she used the word King. (or misinterprets the flames as she is prone to do.)I still dont think that AA and PTWP are the same.AA legend is thousands of years old, and is Ry'llor specific.TPTWP legend is a Targaryan thing, and they have only been around for a few hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Well, Queen Elizabeth used to refer to herself as a "prince." Just sayin'.Okay, for those of you who think that Jon can't be AA, what do you make of Melisandre's visions, where she asks to see her king, and AA, but "all she sees is Snow?" Is she seeing a true vision of Jon as AA, or is she asking the wrong question because she asks for the king (I believe Jon to be the surviving trueborn son of Rhaegar), or is she having a Mel meltdown?(Actually, I have a crackpot theory that Bloodraven is messing with her, and enjoying every minute of it, but that's beside the point.)Definitely not ruling out the possibility of Jon himself being AA. If we're keeping score, Mel's fire-gazing earns a tally for Jon. Honestly, I have absolutely no idea, I'm just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. The thing I feel most confident about (thought still not 100%) is that Dany is not AA because it's just too obvious and literal. Dany fulfilling the prophecy would in no way be a subversion of prophecy. It would be the exact literal word of the prophesy coming true and so far GRRM has indicated that he doesn't operate this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacie Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Grrr....I can't get the quote thing to work. Anyway...Sand Snake, I love the idea of Bloodraven messing with Mel. Kind of like Mormont's raven (that he also has probably warged) calling Jon "king".Not to derail this thread, but I would love to hear more about that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris999 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 GRRM is confusing the shit out of us on purpose. I dont think we are going to know until it is in the print, plain for everyone to see.Just the fact that 50 of us all have different positions just proves that he has meant for it to be ambiguous. Until he chooses otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I wonder how our Targaryen greenseer will manage to use Theon’s life to pay for Jon’s. They all seem a long ways from each other. But both are likely the rightful king, so the blood sacrifice would suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Theon has only recently started to be really sympathetic and entertaining to me, and his overall plot has gained relevance since he seems to be the key to the Iron Isles succession. If Martin kills him now, when I finally give a crap, I'm going to have an aneurism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Theon has only recently started to be really sympathetic and entertaining to me, and his overall plot has gained relevance since he seems to be the key to the Iron Isles succession. If Martin kills him now, when I finally give a crap, I'm going to have an aneurism.Yes, but that’s what Martin does, remember?I think we should expect most of the characters we care about to die. That’s why it’s realistic: because that’s in fact what happens in real life. Everyone we care about dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 I guess it depends on how literal you want to take the prophecy.If TPTWP has to be a literal prince, then it cant be Jon Snow, because he was a king the moment he was born. He was never a prince.It's interchangeable with the word for "dragon," I think. I don't think it has to be a literal prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Food for thought ... if the eggs Illyrio gave to Dany were actually from the Targ stash (Viserion would be Aerion's, Rhaegal would be Aegon V's and Drogon would be Lord Butterwell's, I think) and not from Asshai, they would be too new to be petrified and wouldn't actually be "stone." :leer:In AGOT, didn't Dany think she felt movement in one of the eggs? I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it happened... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 In AGOT, didn't Dany think she felt movement in one of the eggs? I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it happened... :unsure:She felt that they gave hot heat, yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitao Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 In AGOT, didn't Dany think she felt movement in one of the eggs? I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it happened... :unsure:IIRC, she thought she felt heat and asked Jorah if he felt it, which he did not. On another note, I think it was mentioned here already, but I actually got to read the text (I've been listening), and when Jon is stabbed GRRM says smoke came from the wound, not steam. Is that likely to be significant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 IIRC, she thought she felt heat and asked Jorah if he felt it, which he did not.On another note, I think it was mentioned here already, but I actually got to read the text (I've been listening), and when Jon is stabbed GRRM says smoke came from the wound, not steam. Is that likely to be significant?The wound was "smoking" but it was probably the hot blood reacting to the cold, not literal smoke. But that may or may not be required.On another note ...Going on the very interesting idea that Lyanna is Nissa Nissa and Rhaenys and Aegon represent the first two attempts, where do the water and the lion come in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitao Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hot blood reactIng to cold is steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hot blood reactIng to cold is steam.Yes that's what I meant when I said it wasn't "literal smoke." Wounds in the cold are referred to as "smoking" elsewhere in the novels, too. It's not exclusive to Jon's stabbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacie Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 The lion...could possibly be the Lannister banner men who killed baby Aegon (the lion and Aegon were both the second attempt, the blade shattered after being driven into the lion's heart, Aegon was shattered by the lions...) I dunno, that may be a little too literal :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tippy Wolfsbane Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 She felt that they gave hot heat, yeah.Whew, I found it.In chapter 68: She can feel heat coming from it, and feels something move inside.Interesting...great food for thought.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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